What are the key elements in form/kata performance?

[Gerry Seymour]

Form, book, video are the same idea. As long as the information is recorded.

I don't think forms have the inherent fidelity of movement that videos do, nor the inherent fidelity of information books have. Forms are a poor substitute if used that way. If used as a training tool (rather than a method of communicating information), they can be valuable.

 

[Buka]

What I commonly see?

Weak punches and blocks.
Holding the breath all the way through the kata.
Robot moves. Lack of natural movement.
Sloppy moves caused by excess speed.
Moves run together to try to keep up with the group in group kata training.

All of these can be fixed in time. Every student is different. Some children simply don't have the fine motor skills to do what is required at first, so we work with what they can do. Many adults have very stilted moves, very stiff and mechanical, and seem to want to develop power by using arm punches rather than the hips. They're often stiff as a board and it can take a really long time for them to relax into the kata and just let it flow.

Adults also tend not to want to bend their knees. Our style is a rather high natural stance compared to most; we don't do super deep stances, yet we still bend the knees and that seems to be difficult for some.

Bill, forgive me for commenting here about something else - but I find it kind of amusing that the great thread you started about Increased Anger was locked down because of increased anger.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If used as a training tool (rather than a method of communicating information), they can be valuable.

This is the part that we don't agree with each other.

I strongly believe that form is for teaching and learning only. It's not for training.

 

[Flying Crane]

This is the part that we don't agree with each other.

I strongly believe that form is for teaching and learning only. It's not for training.

And I disagree with you there. It CAN be used for teaching and learning, but I believe it is best used as a training tool.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

And I disagree with you there. It CAN be used for teaching and learning, but I believe it is best used as a training tool.

What happen if the training you want to do doesn't exist in your forms, or any forms that exist on this planet?

For example, the jab-hook-uppercut combo.

 

[Dirty Dog]

What happen if the training you want to do doesn't exist in your forms, or any forms that exist on this planet?

For example, the jab-hook-uppercut combo.

Um, I don't think he (or anyone) has said that forms are the ONLY training/teaching tool...

 

[JowGaWolf]

What happen if the training you want to do doesn't exist in your forms, or any forms that exist on this planet?

For example, the jab-hook-uppercut combo.

Depends on if the jab-hook-uppercut combo are taught in the class like say during sparring sessions. There were some things that were taught inside the form and there were other things that were taught outside of the form

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Depends on if the jab-hook-uppercut combo are taught in the class like say during sparring sessions. There were some things that were taught inside the form and there were other things that were taught outside of the form

If nobody has ever created a form that contains jab-hook-uppercut combo, if you don't add that combo into TMA form, that combo will never be in any TMA form.

2 important principles has been trained in this combo:

1. You throw a jab, when your opponent blocks it, you borrow his blocking force, change your jab into a hook (borrow force).
2. Your hook punch help your opponent to block more than he wants to. You then change your hook into a pull to open your opponent up for your next punch (punch and pull).

If your form does not recorded principle 1 and 2, where will these 2 principles be taught?

https://i.postimg.cc/nz2yngNp/my-jab-hook-uppercut.gif

 

[MadMartigan]

If your form does not recorded principle 1 and 2, where will these 2 principles be taught?

I can only speak to the version of TKD that I practice and teach. For us, forms are 1 leg of a 4 leg table (Fundamental movement, Sparring, and Self-Defense being the others).
Our fundamental movement drills (which yes, are taught systematically through the color belt ranks) teach footwork and combinations.

Then there's having a teacher paying attention on the floor. If I see a student (in sparring for instance) not demonstrating an understanding of some fundamental principle; then it's my job to make sure that gap gets addressed.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This is the part that we don't agree with each other.

I strongly believe that form is for teaching and learning only. It's not for training.

Teaching and learning are part of training. But I think I understand what you're saying. I suppose it depends how you use it. My kata are quite clearly not a catalog of anything. They are for students to work on movement. I teach them how to vary the kata to work on different principles, and the kata purposely contain things like balance challenges, level changes, etc. that get them using their bodies in ways that support the techniques I teach. If I tried to put all the important stuff into kata, that's all there would be time for.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

What happen if the training you want to do doesn't exist in your forms, or any forms that exist on this planet?

For example, the jab-hook-uppercut combo.

Then you find a different way. There's nothing to say we can't train what's not in the forms - we just can't use those forms to train those things. There's not a hook punch, knee, or hammerfist anywhere in my forms, but we train them.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If nobody has ever created a form that contains jab-hook-uppercut combo, if you don't add that combo into TMA form, that combo will never be in any TMA form.

And I'm okay with that. I teach and train lots of stuff that I have never seen in a TMA form. Whether someone, somewhere has them or not isn't really relevant to my training.

 

[Flying Crane]

What happen if the training you want to do doesn't exist in your forms, or any forms that exist on this planet?

For example, the jab-hook-uppercut combo.

I think we’ve been over this. You practice it outside of a form. This is not difficult:…

 

[JowGaWolf]

If nobody has ever created a form that contains jab-hook-uppercut combo, if you don't add that combo into TMA form, that combo will never be in any TMA form.

I'm actually ok with this. This is how it is already where the forms do not show how to enter into a technique or exit out of one. Forms do not teach how to bait or time the opponent. Forms do not teach how to use peripheral vision.

To me this is a good reason to train with a qualified teacher. Even if a teacher knows the forms, the teacher may not know what I described above.