What are all of the reasons you bring your fist back to your hip in Karate/Taekwondo/etc forms?

[geezer]

In battle field, which weapon do you prefer to use? Do you prefer a spear?

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or a spear with a hook on it?

IMO, a spear with a hook on it can control your opponent's weapon much better.

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A hook on your spear can serve many functions. Yes, it can hook and control your opponent's weapon, it can catch and pull down his shield and create an opening, it can catch his limbs or clothing restraining or unbalancing him - very useful, especially for foot-soldiers fighting mounted opponents. But no advantage comes without liabilities. For example, the hook can get caught and jammed, preventing an effective thrust.

A simple, straight spear would have an advantage in slipping through a tight guard. There is a reason why the simple, unadorned spear continued to be an important weapon worldwide for untold thousands of years.

 

[Alan0354]

In battle field, which weapon do you prefer to use? Do you prefer a spear?

View attachment 28967

or a spear with a hook on it?

IMO, a spear with a hook on it can control your opponent's weapon much better.

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Definitely without hook. I know it's FANCIER to have a hook so you can do more technique and all. BUT remember one very important thing. If you hook on someone, they might be injured, but the natural instinct for him is pull back. It can easily pull the spear out of your hand.

Don't tell me you have technique or your hand is strong enough. The guy back off with the whole body with legs. Your hands likely are not strong enough to hold onto the stick, AND more importantly, the hook is caught onto the person and you cannot even shake it off.

I gave this a lot of thoughts in my cane practice. If it's not because of that, I would use a rattan cane that is lighter so I can hit faster. Then when I see a big guy, I turn the hook end around to hit to get much harder hit. Even my intention is to turn the hook away and not trying to hook the person. But all it takes is to catch onto the cloths and he can pull my cane out of my hand.

I so wish this can work, if I use my 20oz cane and turn it around, it can easily hit as hard as a baseball bet!!! That's one hit knock out!!!

That is absolutely a no no. In your case, just say the guy eventually die, but you lost your spear!!! Keep it simple. this is not in the movie or a show.

 

[Alan0354]

I haven’t had a chance to read all of the replies, so this might duplicate some of the responses.

My understanding of this is that it is mostly a beginner form, meant to restrict movement in certain ways. This has a few purposes, with two being particularly important to understanding the training method. Firstly (as others have mentioned) it gives both hands a job, so there's less flailing, etc. from new learners. Secondly, it helps develop the power generation method typically used. The push-pull of the hands mirrors and somewhat facilitates (by Newton's second law) the rotation of the hips that drives the power.

(As an aside, the hips driving the power is driven by the legs. It's often not taught explicitly that way, but the training method develops that movement if done properly.)

I think there may be an intention to also teach pulling back the hand after a strike, but I find this method counter-productive in that area if trained a lot.

My teacher taught us using body at the very beginning. We use boxing stance with both hands up to face level to protect the head. He showed us how to use the leg by paying attention that when we punch with right hand in Orthodox position, the right heel should lift up at the end of the punch to show the body rotate with the punch. He even told us to pay attention when we do jab and cross, the belt should flip-flap around the waist to show the body rotation. We never do the traditional punching described here EXCEPT 2 weeks before the belt test, that we had to hurry up to practice the forms for the test in his teacher's school!!!

BTW, you are in NC, stay safe. Hope everything is well.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

But no advantage comes without liabilities. For example, the hook can get caught and jammed, preventing an effective thrust.

It depends on the size of the hook. If the hook is small, the draw back can be ignored.

The praying mantis hook is so small that only used the last 3 fingers.

 

[isshinryuronin]

I am open to be convinced, just win some big fights, not talk, not making excuses that there are too much rules, it's too deadly, I don't want to show my secrets. Just win some fights.

Have you heard of Joe Lewis, Chuck Norris, Benny "The Jet" Urquiedez? They were all traditional karate practitioners in the 60's and 70's (all winners of the International Karate Championships) and they were all very capable fighters.

Joe put several guys in the hospital, Chuck was a skilled technician who could handle the physical guys, and Benny had street creds while still in high school. This was before they went pro contact fighting continuing their legacy. They just didn't "win some fights," they won many.

 

[Alan0354]

Have you heard of Joe Lewis, Chuck Norris, Benny "The Jet" Urquiedez? They were all traditional karate practitioners in the 60's and 70's (all winners of the International Karate Championships) and they were all very capable fighters.

Joe put several guys in the hospital, Chuck was a skilled technician who could handle the physical guys, and Benny had street creds while still in high school. This was before they went pro contact fighting continuing their legacy. They just didn't "win some fights," they won many.

That was how many years ago? Fighting has gone through revolution since. Even Royce Gracie that shocked the world in UFC 1 and 2 got slaughtered within like 10 years in mid 2000s. It's a different world today. How long you think Chuck Norris can last inside the Octagon of today even if he were in his best condition like in the older days? One minute?

You are like comparing the best fighter plane in WWII like the Mustang to an F18 of today!!! Mustangs were the BEST back then, BUT........................

 

[isshinryuronin]

That was how many years ago? Fighting has gone through revolution since. Even Royce Gracie that shocked the world in UFC 1 and 2 got slaughtered within like 10 years in mid 2000s. It's a different world today. How long you think Chuck Norris can last inside the Octagon of today even if he were in his best condition like in the older days? One minute?

You are like comparing the best fighter plane in WWII like the Mustang to an F18 of today!!! Mustangs were the BEST back then, BUT........................

This is not the point at all. People don't train self-defense in the expectation of fighting a professional MMA guy (unless you believe many MMA guys are bullies likely to start fights). Karate is only good if you can beat an elite MMA fighter in the Octagon? Lyoto Machida should be considered a poor fighter when compared to a current UFC champion? All of us here would love to have his skills. Ali is crap because he wasn't in the UFC?

Your logic is ridiculous. Just what is the main point you are trying to make on this thread? If you study and practice anything other than modern MMA you are wasting your time? Oh, yeah, martial arts are purely about "kicking butt" in today's professional MMA sport arena. This seems to be the theme in all of your posts. If this is all martial arts mean to you, OK. But for the great majority of martial artists, it is something more.

 

[Jimmythebull]

this is all martial arts mean to you, OK. But for the great majority of martial artists, it is something more.

Martial arts mean different things to different people. I think Alan is like me more interested in real life results in a modern Arena, be that a Ring or streets. Chuck & the " old timers" really were kick boxers. The modern fighters of today are much more complex. A bigger variety of techniques. These old school guys who were greats of "their game" wouldn't last 1 Minute in today's game.
It's as simple as that.
I understand people want the chi/ki all the philosophy..etc but some are more interested in direct results not pondering over this & that.

Not that I think Chuck was cheese. I liked these fights too which I suppose was the next thing to come..

 

[isshinryuronin]

is like me more interested in real life results in a modern Arena, be that a Ring or streets. Chuck & the " old timers" really were kick boxers.

Ah, so, as you say, we are talking not just about the MMA sport arena, but the street arena as well? They are two different things. Those karate old timers may not have done well in the modern MMA sport arena, but as I pointed out, they were quite capable in the streets. By the way, as I mentioned (perhaps you did not read carefully) they were among the world's best amateur karate fighters before going pro in the fledgling PKA/kickboxing circuit. And have you ever seen those guys fight, amateur or pro????? Or are you just speaking about something you don't know about?

These old school guys who were greats of "their game" wouldn't last 1 Minute in today's game.

As you pointed out above, the arena includes streets. In that arena, you are partially right. The fight would not last 1 minute. They would have finished the guy by then. I find it funny that some twist and turn and cherry pick facts, often contradicting themselves in their logic to make their uninformed/biased points.

 

[Jimmythebull]

are you just speaking about something you don't know about?

Giving my opinion nothing more nothing less.

. I find it funny that some twist and turn and cherry pick facts, often contradicting themselves in their logic to make their uninformed/biased points.

Are you speaking about your points here?

 

[Alan0354]

Ah, so, as you say, we are talking not just about the MMA sport arena, but the street arena as well? They are two different things. Those karate old timers may not have done well in the modern MMA sport arena, but as I pointed out, they were quite capable in the streets. By the way, as I mentioned (perhaps you did not read carefully) they were among the world's best amateur karate fighters before going pro in the fledgling PKA/kickboxing circuit. And have you ever seen those guys fight, amateur or pro????? Or are you just speaking about something you don't know about?

As you pointed out above, the arena includes streets. In that arena, you are partially right. The fight would not last 1 minute. They would have finished the guy by then. I find it funny that some twist and turn and cherry pick facts, often contradicting themselves in their logic to make their uninformed/biased points.

The result likely is the same if Chuck Norris meet up with a good MMA guy. Why do you think the MMA guy cannot do it on the street, only in the octagon?

You think the MMA guy don't know street fights have no rule also, that they can kick between the legs, elbow on the back of the head, eye gouging and all that on the street? Why do people still making excuses that it's the RULES of UFC that hinder them? Go challenge the MMA on the street, I am sure enough of them is going to take up the challenge. Record the fight, if TMA can win, they will be famous. Talk is cheap.

I repeated many times, some people learn it for the artistic side of it. It's perfectly acceptable to me. What is not acceptable is when they put down MMA, making excuses why they cannot go into the octagon instead of just be good enough and win some fights. Nobody criticize people want to appreciate the art, the line is crossed when they actually say they can beat the MMA and not doing it, just making excuses instead.

You seriously think those PKA or WKA guys those days have a chance to even survive with the MMA guys of today? My style is actually kickboxing like in the PKA type. I repeated many times already that I am CHOPPED MEAT if I meet up with an MMA guy at my level. MMA is just so much more and complete and advanced.

 

[Jimmythebull]

End of the day people can fight & train how they want. Just don't get hurt in the real World 🙂

 

[Jimmythebull]

MMA is just so much more and complete and advanced.

Absolutely spot on

 

[drop bear]

I also think it depends on if you're coming from "How else can I use this" instead of "This is all the hidden secrets".

Well you are not going off application. So you have a move that works because you can do it pretty reliably. And then you change that move to something slightly different because it is in a kata.

You are basically going backwards

 

[Gerry Seymour]

In battle field, which weapon do you prefer to use? Do you prefer a spear?

View attachment 28967

or a spear with a hook on it?

IMO, a spear with a hook on it can control your opponent's weapon much better.

View attachment 28966

It depends what you want to do. The one with a hook is also easier to trap.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well you are not going off application. So you have a move that works because you can do it pretty reliably. And then you change that move to something slightly different because it is in a kata.

You are basically going backwards

I tend to agree. But I can see a use for this search if you're looking for different ways to use the form. So if a movement could be a strike or a grappling move, I can practice that sequence differently when doing the form, focusing on the principles of one or the other.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

My teacher taught us using body at the very beginning. We use boxing stance with both hands up to face level to protect the head. He showed us how to use the leg by paying attention that when we punch with right hand in Orthodox position, the right heel should lift up at the end of the punch to show the body rotate with the punch. He even told us to pay attention when we do jab and cross, the belt should flip-flap around the waist to show the body rotation. We never do the traditional punching described here EXCEPT 2 weeks before the belt test, that we had to hurry up to practice the forms for the test in his teacher's school!!!

BTW, you are in NC, stay safe. Hope everything is well.

Everything is good out our way, thanks!

I teach (well, taught - haven't had a class to teach since the last dojo I was teaching at closed) a blend of traditional method and boxing-derived methods. I find it works well for students, and the traditional method allows them to bring in some of the body principles from aiki training. When we spar, we shift back and forth between boxing-style positions and positions you'd expect from karateka.

But the first punch they learn is a basic jab (on a heavy bag if the place I'm teaching has one). The only students who get the traditional punching drills that early are the ones who really struggle to punch.

 

[Jimmythebull]

Everything is good out our way, thanks!

I teach (well, taught - haven't had a class to teach since the last dojo I was teaching at closed) a blend of traditional method and boxing-derived methods. I find it works well for students, and the traditional method allows them to bring in some of the body principles from aiki training. When we spar, we shift back and forth between boxing-style positions and positions you'd expect from karateka.

But the first punch they learn is a basic jab (on a heavy bag if the place I'm teaching has one). The only students who get the traditional punching drills that early are the ones who really struggle to punch.

what style are you training in?

 

[isshinryuronin]

Those karate old timers may not have done well in the modern MMA sport arena,

You seriously think those PKA or WKA guys those days have a chance to even survive with the MMA guys of today?

See the first quote, above. Once again you are blinded by your bias.

And why are you so intent on marketing MMA as being an effective fighting system when no one is saying otherwise?

Go challenge the MMA on the street,

I have addressed this already. See below. Once again...

People don't train self-defense in the expectation of fighting a professional MMA guy (unless you believe many MMA guys are bullies likely to start fights).

 

[isshinryuronin]

Are you speaking about your points here?

Please quote where I have twisted facts or made an illogical argument to make my point.