Weapons and proper instruction - WHY?

Flying Crane

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I just got inspired to start a thread to discuss the reasoning behind needing proper instruction particularly when it comes to learning weaponry.

We often see posters here in MT, people with assumed good intentions who want to learn a particular weapon, and are asking for web sites or instructional videos, or books, or advice to help them get started. Whenever I see those posts, I inevitably make the suggestion: GET A GOOD TEACHER! That is, unless someone else has already beaten me to that punch.

Why is it so important to get a good teacher? Let's look at a sword, for example. It could be any sword: katana, dao, southern dao, jian, Scottish claymore, German Longsword, whatever. It's long, has a sharp point, and a sharp edge, with a handle on the end. Kind of intuitive: pick it up by the handle and stick the bad guy with the pointy end. Or swing it in an arc to cut him with the edge. How hard can that be? Why do I need a good teacher?

How about some of the more exotic weapons, like sai, nunchaku, tonfa, three-section staff, gwan dao, nine-section whip, rope dart, meteor hammer, etc. Once again, you could probably pick these up and be hazardous to your enemy, but some of these weapons are so strange, it can be hard to even imagine how to use them.

The most obvious reason to seek out instruction is so that you can train under an experienced eye. Your instructor will correct your technique to make it as strong as possible. This is not the same as simply being "hazardous" with the weapon. You can instead, be deliberately and precisely deadly. But you need that instructor to make corrections as you progress. Without his guidance, your technique will not develop and grow, because you will not be able to identify the mistakes you are making.

Your instructor will also make sure you are practicing in a way that is safe, and minimizes the chance of doing injury to yourself while training. While a wild swing with the nunchaku might leave you seeing stars, a careless mishap with a sharp sword could leave you or your training partner, or your spouse, or your dog or your cat, bleeding to death. Sometimes a beginner doesn't grasp just how dangerous these weapons can be, even accidentally.

The other big reason is that you need guidance to even understand the capabilities of these weapons. The versatility of a sword or a spear can be a mystery to a beginner. When dealing with the more exotic weapons listed above, you just have no idea how to even use it. So maybe you can pick these up, open a book and figure out a few things. But you will never understand the weapon's full potential, and that is why you need an instructor. Without a good instructor, your understanding of the weapon will simply remain stunted. The way some of these weapons are used is simply not intuitive, and you will probably give up in frustration or boredom in short order.

Some people want to adapt a weapon onto a foundation for which it was never designed. Maybe they've had some training with the dao, and they think a katana should be used the same way. Or that some skill with the nunchaku will translate well for the three-sectional staff. Or they can take a flashy XMA performance/gymnastic kata and work up some flash with a featherweight bo staff, and that shows skill. Well I've got news for ya folks, these notions are all mistakes. A katana does not work like a dao (altho Jeff Falcon made it work pretty well in Six String Samurai, but that's a different story). The Three-sectional staff is not just a nunchaku with one more segment. And a flashy nonsense kata with a weapon in your hand is not skill with a weapon.

Each weapon has a body of techniques designed for its optimal use. Best to stick with that, if you really want to understand the weapon. Otherwise, you are either fooling yourself, or you are just playing games.

So get a good teacher. If that is not possible, then my advice is to do something else. Learn from whomever is available to teach you. Don't try to force something when proper instruction is not available.

That's the end of my monologue. Comments and additions are welcome, of course.
 

tellner

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If you're planning on using one for self defense then for the love of Cthulhu find a teacher who knows a little bit about the legal aspects of deadly force in self defense. The stupidity I've heard from martial arts teachers on the subject beggars description.

As G-d is my witness I met a teacher who demands that his black belts toddle down to the police station to register their hands as deadly weapons. There must be prosecutors and personal injury lawyers who wake up with enormous erections when they hear about him :(
 
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Flying Crane

Flying Crane

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"Meteor hammer"? Sounds like a weapon from Final Fantasy!

heh heh. it's actually kind of like the big brother of the rope dart. It's a heavier weapon than the rope dart, like a brass weight maybe the size of a golf ball or a bit bigger, on a ten or twelve foot rope. From the little I have seen of it, it's technique is similar to the rope dart.

In Jackie Chan's Shanghai Noon, he improvised by tying a horseshoe to a rope, and then kicked the snot out of a couple of cowboys.

It's kind of crazy if you've never seen the technique before. You don't just swing it around and try to smack things. You swing it in a way and sort of bounce the rope off your toe or elbow or knee or around the neck or the body, and use that to direct the weapon so it shoots out in a straight line. definitely not something you could pick up without some kind of instruction.
 

jks9199

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If you're planning on using one for self defense then for the love of Cthulhu find a teacher who knows a little bit about the legal aspects of deadly force in self defense. The stupidity I've heard from martial arts teachers on the subject beggars description.

As G-d is my witness I met a teacher who demands that his black belts toddle down to the police station to register their hands as deadly weapons. There must be prosecutors and personal injury lawyers who wake up with enormous erections when they hear about him :(
And cops who get awful tired of these morons traipsing in...

I'm not aware of ANY state or city that requires or makes any sort of registry of martial artists's hands. ANYBODY's hands can kill...

I'll tell you -- the first time I had someone show up like that in the station would also be the last. Because I'd go down, and explain the error of that teacher's thinking to him. Probably in front of a class. We get stuck with enough stupidity... that's some I can stop.
 

tellner

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JKS, I would really appreciate it if you did. Many, many times.
 

Grenadier

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It's not just bladed weapons, or "high risk" weapons such as the three section staff... It can also be applied to simpler, common weapons.

I've seen some self-trained folks swinging around ordinary rokushaku (6' long bo), using just their arms, thinking that they're making very powerful swings. Yet, at the same time, their awful mechanics are taking quite a toll on their bodies.

I've lost count of the number of "self-trained" bo users, who end up with sore elbows, because of the wear and tear they put on the with their set of techniques that were mechanically unsound.

In the end, a good teacher can quickly point out how to use good mechanics, and develop someone in a healthy, sound manner. If someone wants to branch off on his own after he's had a good set of fundamentals, then hey, I'm not entirely against that.
 

Imua Kuntao

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As a teacher I can use various weapons to takedown and throw an opponent, whether or not I would do such a thing in reality is a different story. In public here in Texas it is illeagal to carry a tonfa, nunchacku, stick (club), and other items. I have seen beginners cut themselves while practicing on thier own, or have had people from other teachers come to me and ask why did a certian thing happen, why did I hit myself on the head with this? Little problems that many students dont think of may happen, even if the student feels they are learning from experience they could be falling into bad habbits. With a good teacher a student can advance in trainning without the unneccessary smack on the head or without that nasty cut on the hand, plus maybe learn how to restrain or throw the opponent. Here in San Antonio, there was a man who goes to another instrctor who was a competitor many years ago and this instructor had no formal trainning, his student went to a tournemnt here and tried to do a kata with a pair of kama and ended up going to the hospitol because he almost split his right foot down the middle between his toes toward his ankle, with said kama. I know as a teacher you do not use kicks when your weapon is going forward. Every weapon has its little do's and dont's. Please if the weapon is a serious one get an instructor.
 

Shotochem

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Excellent post Crane.

I have only started to train in weapons last year. I have studied all this time defending against weapons and fighting empty handed without really understanding the dynamics and principles of what I'm being attacked with.

It has been quite an eye opening experience. I have trained a little bit (mostly dabbling on my own) in long and short staff and thought I was comfortable with it. Then I started real training and found it to be quite the opposite. I was the proverbial fish out of water once again and I once again learned I did not know as much as I thought I did.

I was completely amazed at how much better I became at defending and disarming once I actually learned how to use the weapon. I have since taken classes in other weapons to get a feel for them. I found nunchucku to be quite different than I expected and surprisingly comfortable. I may go for some more long term traing on them as I am finding them to be an apealing weapon.

I also have started the Sai. I had no idea what a formiddable weapon it could really be.

The addition of weapons training has really brought back the passion I was losing in my training. There is just more to learn and keep myself amused.

-Marc-
 

Catalyst

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Maybe they would consider making this a sticky in the weapons forum so that folks can read it before asking the same question(s) about what video to watch or book to read to learn (fill in the blank) weapon.

Just my $0.02
 

Big Don

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To me, the question of the necessity of proper instruction in the use of weapons is a no-brainer. This is a Martial Arts forum, none of us just KNEW how to fight effectively, and likewise, none are born with the knowledge and skills needed to handle weaponry of any sort.
 

Xue Sheng

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I just got inspired to start a thread to discuss the reasoning behind needing proper instruction particularly when it comes to learning weaponry....

So can you tell me where I can find a good video to train the nine-section whip or the rope dart or the meteor hammer my MD needs to put a kid through college and I need an excuse for vacation :uhyeah:


Seriously

Very good post and very well said sir. :asian:
 
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Flying Crane

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So can you tell me where I can find a good video to train the nine-section whip or the rope dart or the meteor hammer my MD needs to put a kid through college and I need an excuse for vacation :uhyeah:


Seriously

Very good post and very well said sir. :asian:

I'll work one up for you, it'll be in the mail this afternoon.
icon12.gif
 

tshadowchaser

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Why is it so important to get a good teacher?

People in general do not know if the instructor they are with has or dose not really have the knowledge to train them with properly with any weapon. Those that unfortunately have less than competent instructors will learn incorrect techniques, poor body mechanics, and more than likely things that are dangerous for them to practice, while thinking that they are learning some great stuff. They then will pass on this knowledge , or worse try to use it.
I know to many instructors that have taken a clip here and there from a instructional video or a clip off utube and then passed that small segment of material on as part of there training, without ever knowing the reason behind the technique.
 

Imua Kuntao

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There are schools that teach weapons like the 3 section staff. I know my form/set/kune/kata is different from the other Imua Kuntao people, but the weapons instruction is from a good background with some history. Look to the Chinese Kung Fu or Kuntao schools, I see on the net there are more than just a few schools.
 

Langenschwert

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Here's another reason why to get a good instructor:

Respect. Our ancestors literally died for this knowledge, or for the lack of it. They paid in blood for what we use as recreation.

So when you take a sword and flip it around like a majorette does a baton, it isn't swordsmanship. It's treating a weapon like a toy. I'm not too sure that's very respectful of those who have gone before.

The historical German masters decried this sort of behaviour and called one who practiced it a "Leichmeister" (dance-master), a derogatory term. The introduction of HS 3227.a (the so-called "Dobringer" fechtbuch, from about 1389) actually starts out condemning the Leichmeisters on page ONE. Obviously the author felt that glorifying "play fighting" was so damaging to the "true Art" that he couldn't allow that kind of swordsmanship go unanswered. Perhaps neither should we.

However, it's a free country. You can flip a sword or a staff as part of a glorified rhythmic gymnastics routine, and have a great time. Fill your tabi. You can sit in your basement and make up a "sword style" in your spare time. Just don't think that it has anything to do with what those who actually you know, fought with those weapons did as a way of life. And pray that you'll never have to use your fictional, made-up, BS style to resolve a horrible non-fictional combat.

I'm not saying that I know much about swordsmanship. I'm just a grunt, but I teach what I know and I try to be a faithful proponent of masters long dead. Compared to those that have gone before, I know nothing. I can only hope to do better today than I did yesterday. When I train, I'm mindful of the blood that's been shed for what I'm learning, and every time I'm amazed at the ingenuity of the medieval masters. I don't want to be a Leichmeister. I'm just trying to be a swordsman.

Best regards,

-Mark
 

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