We don't throw straight rights in street fights.

[Gerry Seymour]

"In all the fights I had as a teen, I never got kicked. Hasn't happened in the few altercations I've had since, either. If they're good at kicking/sweeping, there's a threat from kicks and sweeps. If they're not, the threat is limited."

"I could do it like I am sparring and throw clean punches but ultimately that's not how street fights work."

Kicking is not what happens in a street fight. Straight punching is not what happens in a street fight.

Now admittedly I have seen both. But even if I hadn't I would not discount the mechanic if it can be shown to work.

Otherwise yes if they are good at kicking be more concerned about kicks than if they are not good at kicking.

I thinks it’s not the same thing. He’s saying (I think) that you can’t throw straight rights because that’s not how it works in the street. I’m talking about the incidence of good kickers and the related risk of being kicked while trying to enter to punching range. Kicking can happen, but it certainly doesn’t make pinching impossible.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I never meant that de-escalation efforts should not be undertaken, or cannot be successful. Most karate masters adhere to the concept of using force only as a last resort. But if an aggressor cannot be persuaded to de-escalate and is just wanting to punch somebody - he most likely will not be dissuaded by one's stance. (although there is the old story of the tea master who faced down a Samurai swordsman.) I have not been in hundreds of confrontations, but from the few I've been in or witnessed, most have involved pig-headed aggressors who really wanted to fight.

I think the issue is with folks who aren’t yet at that stage. Looking like you’re ready to fight can make de-escalation more difficult (unless you can somehow make them actually afraid to proceed).

 

[macher]

It’s very rare in a street fight you’ll come up against a skilled or semi skilled opponent. Most street fight punches are not straight punches and most opponents won’t throw kicks.

That’s why even the person who has trained in self defense who is either semi skilled will have an advantage over most opponents. Of course there’s the very small percentage you have to be prepared for.

Growing up I grew up in a rough and tough neighborhood in Philly where it was said that the ‘girls fought as good as the boys’. Most instances I’ve seen and been involved with were not from skilled opponents but ‘tough’ opponents.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[JowGaWolf]

Looking like you’re ready to fight can make de-escalation more difficult

This is always difficult, de-escalation should be done from a position of safety and not within the range of risk where someone can loop a punch over your open hands hit you in the face. When you mention "folks who aren’t yet at that stage." they may actually be putting themselves at risk by following:

• put open hands up and say you don't want to fight and then try to sneak a punch in.

If you aren't skilled enough to "knuckle up" in a fighting position then you definitely don't want to follow that advice above. If a person isn't "at that level yet" then the best thing would be to disengage. If that person is close enough to have to put their hands up then they should have either been disengaging a few sentences back or they should immediately create distance instead of trying to position themselves for an offensive attack.

The reason I say this, is because EVERY video that I've seen that says, "put your arms up up and say you don't want want to fight" usually is followed by some advanced technique that a lot of people aren't ready for or capable of doing. For example, in the OP video, I don't do BJJ so his whole plan of defense would just get me into trouble and make things worse from me.

 

[skribs]

This is always difficult, de-escalation should be done from a position of safety and not within the range of risk where someone can loop a punch over your open hands hit you in the face. When you mention "folks who aren’t yet at that stage." they may actually be putting themselves at risk by following:

• put open hands up and say you don't want to fight and then try to sneak a punch in.

If you aren't skilled enough to "knuckle up" in a fighting position then you definitely don't want to follow that advice above. If a person isn't "at that level yet" then the best thing would be to disengage. If that person is close enough to have to put their hands up then they should have either been disengaging a few sentences back or they should immediately create distance instead of trying to position themselves for an offensive attack.

The reason I say this, is because EVERY video that I've seen that says, "put your arms up up and say you don't want want to fight" usually is followed by some advanced technique that a lot of people aren't ready for or capable of doing. For example, in the OP video, I don't do BJJ so his whole plan of defense would just get me into trouble and make things worse from me.

The concept of putting your hands up and saying "I don't want to fight", and the advanced technique are two separate things that you're linking together. Then you're judging both of them together, instead of the concepts separate.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The concept of putting your hands up and saying "I don't want to fight", and the advanced technique are two separate things that you're linking together.

I'm not linking them together. It's what other's show in their videos. It's not me.

My thought process is this. If I put my hands up and say that I don't want to fight, then what do I do if a punch comes over my hands. I'm all about what happens next. Not so much what I'm going to do, but what the aggressor may do.

If I can't fight then having my hands up like that may not be the best position for me to be in up close. If I can't fight, then I definitely don't want to knuckle up. If I can't fight then I want to back away and create distance as a default. I think I can fight and I still back away as a default. From a defensive perspective I want to force my opponent to close the distance which I now manage.

When I teach self-defense, I don't teach put the hands up like that. I always teach to increase the distance as the first step. ALWAYS.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

When I teach self-defense, I don't teach put the hands up like that. I always teach to increase the distance as the first step. ALWAYS.

That's what I have taught to my students too, to maintain the kicking range. I even teach them how to move back 10 feet by just 1 backward jumping footwork.

 

[skribs]

I'm not linking them together. It's what other's show in their videos. It's not me.

My thought process is this. If I put my hands up and say that I don't want to fight, then what do I do if a punch comes over my hands. I'm all about what happens next. Not so much what I'm going to do, but what the aggressor may do.

If I can't fight then having my hands up like that may not be the best position for me to be in up close. If I can't fight, then I definitely don't want to knuckle up. If I can't fight then I want to back away and create distance as a default. I think I can fight and I still back away as a default. From a defensive perspective I want to force my opponent to close the distance which I now manage.

When I teach self-defense, I don't teach put the hands up like that. I always teach to increase the distance as the first step. ALWAYS.

It's the same as if you have your hands up in a fist in the guard position. It's just a guard position that doesn't look like a guard position.

And you can put your hands up like that and back away. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

That's what I have taught to my students too, to maintain the kicking range. I even teach them how to move back 10 feet by just 1 backward jumping footwork.

This definitely says "I'm ready to fight". If blows haven't been thrown, I'd much rather try and de-escalate than add energy to the situation.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'm not linking them together. It's what other's show in their videos. It's not me.

My thought process is this. If I put my hands up and say that I don't want to fight, then what do I do if a punch comes over my hands. I'm all about what happens next. Not so much what I'm going to do, but what the aggressor may do.

If I can't fight then having my hands up like that may not be the best position for me to be in up close. If I can't fight, then I definitely don't want to knuckle up. If I can't fight then I want to back away and create distance as a default. I think I can fight and I still back away as a default. From a defensive perspective I want to force my opponent to close the distance which I now manage.

When I teach self-defense, I don't teach put the hands up like that. I always teach to increase the distance as the first step. ALWAYS.

IMO, the hands-up "I don't want to fight" shouldn't happen inside punching range. A step away gives time to react, including a chance to escalate if they won't stay outside that zone.

 

[drop bear]

I thinks it’s not the same thing. He’s saying (I think) that you can’t throw straight rights because that’s not how it works in the street. I’m talking about the incidence of good kickers and the related risk of being kicked while trying to enter to punching range. Kicking can happen, but it certainly doesn’t make pinching impossible.

So then if kung fu Wang is going to base his defense off kicking he should become good at kicking?

And from your experience bad kickers don't kick effectively in street fights?

 

[drop bear]

Ultimately if you are not punching you shouldn't really be in punching range.

Because then they can punch you.

This is also very basic fighting theory of don't stand in the pocket.

 

[macher]

So then if kung fu Wang is going to base his defense off kicking he should become good at kicking?

And from your experience bad kickers don't kick effectively in street fights?

Most street fights don’t have kicking anyway. That’s why if your slightly skilled you’ll be able to do ok against most opponents.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[drop bear]

Most street fights don’t have kicking anyway. That’s why if your slightly skilled you’ll be able to do ok against most opponents.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The problem with that is if we set up a self defense plan based on the idea the other guy will be a dud. And he winds up not being one then you will get beat up and have wasted a good deal of time and effort.

Where if you have a plan based on the other guy is a gun and he winds up being a dud. You should make out better.

And you only need one basic method which will give you more bang for buck.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So then if kung fu Wang is going to base his defense off kicking he should become good at kicking?

And from your experience bad kickers don't kick effectively in street fights?

From my experience, bad kickers don't kick much in street fights - effectively or otherwise (unless the other guy is on the ground). And sure, if someone wants to base their defense on kicking, they probably want to be good at what they're basing it on. If I base mine on grappling, but don't bother to get good at grappling, I'm not sure what I'd be up to.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The problem with that is if we set up a self defense plan based on the idea the other guy will be a dud. And he winds up not being one then you will get beat up and have wasted a good deal of time and effort.

Where if you have a plan based on the other guy is a gun and he winds up being a dud. You should make out better.

And you only need one basic method which will give you more bang for buck.

I'd argue that - unless and until you reach a pretty high skill level - there's no direct route to handling skilled grapplers, skilled punchers, and skilled kickers all with one basic method (other than principles like staying out of range).

 

[JowGaWolf]

And you can put your hands up like that and back away. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

I agree. But when you see people teach "put your hands up" they almost never increase distance. For example, in the Op's videos.. He stays within striking range. He does not increase distance. When you look at a lot of Self-defense videos that teach "put the hands up", it's usually just that and they don't increase the distance.
Here's an example: A self-defense class that I randomly found on youtube. Were you will see hands up but you won't see increase distance. Skip to about 3:05 and then watch from there

As you can see they allow the aggressor to close distance, On student almost gets backed against a wall. They are not practicing increasing the distance. I don't need to be that close to someone if I'm arguing in a loud voice, they can hear me I increase the distance lol. So while you are correct about being able to do both. Most that I've seen do not speak about doing both.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

This definitely says "I'm ready to fight". If blows haven't been thrown, I'd much rather try and de-escalate than add energy to the situation.

I don't understand your logic here. Why do you think that

move back = ready to fight?

One Karate master said, "If my opponent attacks me the 1st time, I will back up. If he attacks me the 2nd time, I'll still back up. If he attack me the 3rd times, I'll still back up again. But if he wants to attack me the 4th time, I will jump in and eat him alive."

There is a limitation for "de-escalation". You will give to your opponent whatever he deserves for it. That's the "MA spirit".

you can put your hands up ...

When you put your hand up, I don't know whether you are trying to draw any weapon behind your back or not.

 

[JowGaWolf]

IMO, the hands-up "I don't want to fight" shouldn't happen inside punching range. A step away gives time to react, including a chance to escalate if they won't stay outside that zone.

I agree 100% but that's not what the guy in the OP's video did and most people don't teach it that way.

 

[JowGaWolf]

This how difficult it is to close distance. I laugh at this because it's funny but true. Skip to 0:45 it continues to end. If you can increase and maintain a distance that's out of striking range, then your attacker's first move will always be to close the distance. While it doesn't have to super far like in the video below, so long as you are out striking range. For me personally being that most people don't kick, I'm more than happy to stay outside of punching range.

 

[skribs]

I don't understand your logic here. Why do you think that

move back = ready to fight?

Leap back in such a dramatic fashion, into a fighting stance with your hands up?

When someone is trying to pick a fight, they're looking for your fight-or-flight response. To jump back into a fighting stance activates both.