Watering Down The Arts

[tellner]

One could say with more justice that a typical five year program to black belt is a watered down self defense course.

You can turn someone into a ring-ready Thai boxer in a year and a half. He will go through most striking art black belts with three or four times the years. That would argue that it's the "traditional" martial arts which are watered down. Something must be diluting the combative efficiency of the TMA and acting as filler if it takes so much longer to get to the point where you can fight effectively.

The TMABB will argue "But once you get past that learning curve you get so much further. Our ten and twenty year veterans move like magic."

Maybe. Usually not. And even if it is true, so what? Someone who is interested in self defense wants useful skills in a realistic time frame, not belts and certificates and the fortune cookie philosophy that infests most martial arts schools. For someone with a life outside the dojo it's generally about the goal, not the journey, and if he or she can achieve that goal wasting less valuable time, so much the better. On the other hand, if you want an engrossing hobby and martial arts fills that void, then by all means do TMA. But I bet there will be other parts of your life where you'll go for what gives you what you want, not what enthusiasts say you should appreciate.

I don't care about the Sacrality of the Zen of Motorcycle Maintenance. I just want the damned thing to run.

 

[jks9199]

One could say with more justice that a typical five year program to black belt is a watered down self defense course.

You can turn someone into a ring-ready Thai boxer in a year and a half. He will go through most striking art black belts with three or four times the years. That would argue that it's the "traditional" martial arts which are watered down. Something must be diluting the combative efficiency of the TMA and acting as filler if it takes so much longer to get to the point where you can fight effectively.

The TMABB will argue "But once you get past that learning curve you get so much further. Our ten and twenty year veterans move like magic."

Maybe. Usually not. And even if it is true, so what? Someone who is interested in self defense wants useful skills in a realistic time frame, not belts and certificates and the fortune cookie philosophy that infests most martial arts schools. For someone with a life outside the dojo it's generally about the goal, not the journey, and if he or she can achieve that goal wasting less valuable time, so much the better. On the other hand, if you want an engrossing hobby and martial arts fills that void, then by all means do TMA. But I bet there will be other parts of your life where you'll go for what gives you what you want, not what enthusiasts say you should appreciate.

I don't care about the Sacrality of the Zen of Motorcycle Maintenance. I just want the damned thing to run.

I think the reality is that any competent instructor, with motivated students, should be able to produce effective fighters in a matter of months -- if that's the only concern.

They'll be able to rock & roll -- but that's about all. Unless they then spend time afterwards in developing the deeper skills.

It's a question of what the student and instructor want.

 

[Andrew Green]

what "deeper skills"?

 

[Danjo]

One could say with more justice that a typical five year program to black belt is a watered down self defense course.

You can turn someone into a ring-ready Thai boxer in a year and a half. He will go through most striking art black belts with three or four times the years. That would argue that it's the "traditional" martial arts which are watered down. Something must be diluting the combative efficiency of the TMA and acting as filler if it takes so much longer to get to the point where you can fight effectively.

The TMABB will argue "But once you get past that learning curve you get so much further. Our ten and twenty year veterans move like magic."

Maybe. Usually not. And even if it is true, so what? Someone who is interested in self defense wants useful skills in a realistic time frame, not belts and certificates and the fortune cookie philosophy that infests most martial arts schools. For someone with a life outside the dojo it's generally about the goal, not the journey, and if he or she can achieve that goal wasting less valuable time, so much the better. On the other hand, if you want an engrossing hobby and martial arts fills that void, then by all means do TMA. But I bet there will be other parts of your life where you'll go for what gives you what you want, not what enthusiasts say you should appreciate.

I don't care about the Sacrality of the Zen of Motorcycle Maintenance. I just want the damned thing to run.

"Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof..." II Timothy 3:5 (KJV)

What you're talking about is the missing application aspect of the TMAs as they are largely practiced today. All you're left with is the empty form without the power behind it. TMAs are like a Zip File, where a lot of info is compressed into forms and techniques, but requires unzipping software to be able to open it and extract the information from it.

Toshiro Ohsiro said once, "On Okinawa, we learn that there are two forms of martial arts. One is real and teaches the true fighting applications of each move. The other form is false, called meikata (dance), and teaches only the shape of the techniques, hiding the real application within the form."

The idea that practicing the forms without practicing the applications with a partner in both pre-arranged sequences and free-form Kakadamashi contests was considered merely an athletic endeavor akin to gymnastics or dance. Unfortunately, many of the Karateka that came over from Okinawa after they got out of the military only had the forms to impart. Shotokan also, had been largely reduced to a college course and sport with much of the application left out. So what we have today is mostly the outer form without the true fighting applications.

With the strictly self defense systems, the people do tend to learn how to fight more quickly and efficiently. It's all application. No forms to unlock or "un-zip". Hence many who are interested in seriously being able to defend themselves go this route because it realistically trains one to defend onself.

However, there are built in limitations to this approach. The self defense systems are generally basic and require a good deal of athletic ability to pull off at their highest level. Size tends to matter also with these systems as does age. There are very few 60 year-old Muy Thai practitioners that can still move very well.

In properly taught TMAs, size is reduced or eliminated as a concern and one tends to get better with age at least until the time one becomes infirm. The techniques are not unrealistic due to the fact that they were created over many years by those who honed these skills in actual combat. Military or LEO hand-to-hand training, Women's self defense courses etc. all have a place as do athletic arts like boxing and Muy Thai. But TMAs, if taught properly, give a person more tools in their toolbox than the strictly self defense systems do. Whether that matters to you and your needs is a question that you have to ask and answer for yourself.

 

[Flying Crane]

Something must be diluting the combative efficiency of the TMA and acting as filler if it takes so much longer to get to the point where you can fight effectively.

I believe that modern society as a whole is a big factor in the dilution of traditional arts. It is actually pretty easy these days to go thru your entire life without ever having to defend yourself. Not even on the playground as a kid. Society has changed. Overall, we have less tolerance for personal physical violence. We believe the best way to deal with conflict is to call the police. We have a legal system that prosecutes those who like to visit violence upon others for no good reason. Because of law enforcement, communication technology, and the legal system, we just don't often need to defend ourselves, by ourselves. So we practice TMA on a very theoretical level and seldom, or never, get to actually test it out for real and find out what works and what doesn't.

A few generations ago in places like China, the average schmoe was literally on his own. He lived in a rural area with little or no ability to communicate over long distances, little effective law enforcement, and a legal system that cared little for the peasantry. So for his own personal protection, he trained his martial arts LIKE HE MEANT IT. And he probably had more than just a few chances to try it out for real on some jackass that wanted to hurt or kill him and steal his flock of chickens. People trained differently, and they used it frequently.

Today, we train for fun, we sweat and work hard, we develop some understanding of fighting, and we develop some technical ability. But for most of us, we have no reason to ever use it outside the dojo or the tournament. That lack of real-life experience is very telling, and the overall level of TMA becomes degraded, because as a whole, we have lost sight of its real purpose. It just isn't as necessary as it once was.

Someone who is interested in self defense wants useful skills in a realistic time frame, not belts and certificates and the fortune cookie philosophy that infests most martial arts schools.

I've really never encountered a school that spouted fortune cookie philosophy. People often comment about this, but I just don't tend to see it. I wonder if it is as prevalent as some seem to indicate.

I don't care about the Sacrality of the Zen of Motorcycle Maintenance. I just want the damned thing to run.

a reasonable position to take.

 

[Danjo]

I believe that modern society as a whole is a big factor in the dilution of traditional arts. It is actually pretty easy these days to go thru your entire life without ever having to defend yourself. Not even on the playground as a kid. Society has changed. Overall, we have less tolerance for personal physical violence. We believe the best way to deal with conflict is to call the police. We have a legal system that prosecutes those who like to visit violence upon others for no good reason. Because of law enforcement, communication technology, and the legal system, we just don't often need to defend ourselves, by ourselves. So we practice TMA on a very theoretical level and seldom, or never, get to actually test it out for real and find out what works and what doesn't.

Better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it.
http://www.kutv.com/content/news/topnews/story.aspx?content_id=cec6ae98-4e6b-48fe-830a-69f2d23a48dc

 

[Flying Crane]

Better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it.
[URL="http://www.kutv.com/content/news/topnews/story.aspx?content_id=cec6ae98-4e6b-48fe-830a-69f2d23a48dc"]http://www.kutv.com/content/news/topnews/story.aspx?content_id=cec6ae98-4e6b-48fe-830a-69f2d23a48dc[/URL]

Yes, it's certainly true that violence does happen and there are definitely times when one must defend himself. But it is, I believe, far less frequent on the whole, than it once was a few generations ago.

 

[Doc]

"Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof..." II Timothy 3:5 (KJV)

What you're talking about is the missing application aspect of the TMAs as they are largely practiced today. All you're left with is the empty form without the power behind it. TMAs are like a Zip File, where a lot of info is compressed into forms and techniques, but requires unzipping software to be able to open it and extract the information from it.

Toshiro Ohsiro said once, "On Okinawa, we learn that there are two forms of martial arts. One is real and teaches the true fighting applications of each move. The other form is false, called meikata (dance), and teaches only the shape of the techniques, hiding the real application within the form."

The idea that practicing the forms without practicing the applications with a partner in both pre-arranged sequences and free-form Kakadamashi contests was considered merely an athletic endeavor akin to gymnastics or dance. Unfortunately, many of the Karateka that came over from Okinawa after they got out of the military only had the forms to impart. Shotokan also, had been largely reduced to a college course and sport with much of the application left out. So what we have today is mostly the outer form without the true fighting applications.

With the strictly self defense systems, the people do tend to learn how to fight more quickly and efficiently. It's all application. No forms to unlock or "un-zip". Hence many who are interested in seriously being able to defend themselves go this route because it realistically trains one to defend onself.

However, there are built in limitations to this approach. The self defense systems are generally basic and require a good deal of athletic ability to pull off at their highest level. Size tends to matter also with these systems as does age. There are very few 60 year-old Muy Thai practitioners that can still move very well.

In properly taught TMAs, size is reduced or eliminated as a concern and one tends to get better with age at least until the time one becomes infirm. The techniques are not unrealistic due to the fact that they were created over many years by those who honed these skills in actual combat. Military or LEO hand-to-hand training, Women's self defense courses etc. all have a place as do athletic arts like boxing and Muy Thai. But TMAs, if taught properly, give a person more tools in their toolbox than the strictly self defense systems do. Whether that matters to you and your needs is a question that you have to ask and answer for yourself.

That was so very well said sir.

 

[Danjo]

That was so very well said sir.

Thank you. That's how I've always felt about your posts. But then you know that.

 

[Matt]

What you're talking about is the missing application aspect of the TMAs as they are largely practiced today. All you're left with is the empty form without the power behind it. TMAs are like a Zip File, where a lot of info is compressed into forms and techniques, but requires unzipping software to be able to open it and extract the information from it.

I think you make a great point, and unfortunately, many folks think they will spontaneously download 'unzipping' software in the heat of battle.

Well stated in general (the whole post).

Matt

 

[Danjo]

I think you make a great point, and unfortunately, many folks think they will spontaneously download 'unzipping' software in the heat of battle.

Well stated in general (the whole post).

Matt

Thanks. I guess I should say that the "software" is the instructor.

 

[Doc]

I believe that modern society as a whole is a big factor in the dilution of traditional arts. It is actually pretty easy these days to go thru your entire life without ever having to defend yourself. Not even on the playground as a kid. Society has changed. Overall, we have less tolerance for personal physical violence. We believe the best way to deal with conflict is to call the police. We have a legal system that prosecutes those who like to visit violence upon others for no good reason. Because of law enforcement, communication technology, and the legal system, we just don't often need to defend ourselves, by ourselves. So we practice TMA on a very theoretical level and seldom, or never, get to actually test it out for real and find out what works and what doesn't.

A few generations ago in places like China, the average schmoe was literally on his own. He lived in a rural area with little or no ability to communicate over long distances, little effective law enforcement, and a legal system that cared little for the peasantry. So for his own personal protection, he trained his martial arts LIKE HE MEANT IT. And he probably had more than just a few chances to try it out for real on some jackass that wanted to hurt or kill him and steal his flock of chickens. People trained differently, and they used it frequently.

Today, we train for fun, we sweat and work hard, we develop some understanding of fighting, and we develop some technical ability. But for most of us, we have no reason to ever use it outside the dojo or the tournament. That lack of real-life experience is very telling, and the overall level of TMA becomes degraded, because as a whole, we have lost sight of its real purpose. It just isn't as necessary as it once was.



I've really never encountered a school that spouted fortune cookie philosophy. People often comment about this, but I just don't tend to see it. I wonder if it is as prevalent as some seem to indicate.



a reasonable position to take.

Astute and well stated observations, as usual sir.

 

[jks9199]

what "deeper skills"?

A quote would have helped; I recognized my own words -- but not the context.

What I wrote was this:

I think the reality is that any competent instructor, with motivated students, should be able to produce effective fighters in a matter of months -- if that's the only concern.

They'll be able to rock & roll -- but that's about all. Unless they then spend time afterwards in developing the deeper skills.

It's a question of what the student and instructor want.

I thing it's rather self evident what the deeper skills I referred to are; the refinements of technique, strategies over simple assortments of techniques, the reasons and the stuff that separates a martial art for simple defensive tactics or street fighting.

No, I'm not implicitly saying kata or bunkai -- but I am referring to the more complete understanding of what powers and supports the brute fighting skills. The "science" in the "sweet science", if you will.

 

[Andrew Green]

No, I'm not implicitly saying kata or bunkai -- but I am referring to the more complete understanding of what powers and supports the brute fighting skills. The "science" in the "sweet science", if you will.

Which is a boxing reference, so I am assuming you are not saying comabt sports are shallow compared to traditional styles, which is what I initially thought you meant?

 

[jks9199]

Which is a boxing reference, so I am assuming you are not saying comabt sports are shallow compared to traditional styles, which is what I initially thought you meant?

I said that you can rapidly teach someone to fight -- but that, to do so, you won't be focusing on anything beyond fighting. For some people, that's all they want. Nothing inherently wrong with that, either.

But there is more to martial arts. Otherwise, as Tellner suggested, anything beyond that is simply marketing gimmickry and watering down the essentials of fighting. I don't personally believe this is the case... but then, I've spent more than 20 years of my life studying martial arts.

You can learn to brawl effectively pretty quickly. But you can't learn much more than "cleaned up" brawling. (Yes, most good police DT programs are just that... effective brawling.) A little longer, and you can delve a bit deeper into the hows and whys. Spend even more time, and you can start to find out a lot more...

 

[Danjo]

Which is a boxing reference, so I am assuming you are not saying combat sports are shallow compared to traditional styles, which is what I initially thought you meant?

Well, I would say that. It's the "Compared to" that makes me say that. That's not to say that combat SPORTS are bad or ineffective or not sufficient to your needs depending on what those are. It's not saying that a neophyte in boxing will have the same understanding of that combat sport that a Muhamed Ali or Ray Robinson will. But it IS saying that the TMAs are deeper than combat sports. In fact, that's usually the argument AGAINST the TMAs, i.e., "Who needs all that mumbo jumbo?"

Combat sports are to the TMAs what a battle-axe is to a rapier. A battle-axe is a much simpler cutting device. It takes much less time to master and will suit many people's combat needs. If you're young and strong, it will do the job nicely. Now a days folks would probably rather watch two guys fighting it out with axes than rapiers. However, people would be foolish to think that chopping with an axe is as "deep" a discipline as fencing.

 

[Andrew Green]

You can learn to brawl effectively pretty quickly. But you can't learn much more than "cleaned up" brawling. (Yes, most good police DT programs are just that... effective brawling.) A little longer, and you can delve a bit deeper into the hows and whys. Spend even more time, and you can start to find out a lot more...

For example? I'm around that 20 year mark too, I've yet to see anything beyond "cleaned up" brawling. Although part of cleaning up your brawling involves understanding those hows and whys.

So I guess what I would like to know is what depth you see in traditional arts that cannot be found in arts that focus on fighting?

 

[kaizasosei]

i value the ability to take someone out without hurting them or without doing that much damage. also i believe, the spiritual aspect are really important and equally valuable if not more valuable.

 

[Hand Sword]

I think both ways are a means to the spiritual end, or can be. Even Martial Artists start off with the feelings of "I wanna Kick some butt!!" Eventually, through time, it lessens. Boxers too start off with the same feelings, and keep it for awhile. In the end, they too get sick of the smell of the training room, look to the ref. to stop a fight so as not to hurt an opponent too bad. They also develop a deeper way to box without taking too much damage, and dishing out enough to stop a fight--just like martial artists. They too, will like to continue training, and not participate. Just like Martial Artisits. It's unavoidable, it's the evolution of a person through training. Martial artists may get there faster, but in the end both can get there. There are just as many martial artists as there are boxers that never get it either.

 

[Andrew Green]

i value the ability to take someone out without hurting them or without doing that much damage. also i believe, the spiritual aspect are really important and equally valuable if not more valuable.

Any sport stylist should be comfortable doing that, especially MMA, Wrestling & Judo. But even a boxer can keep from getting hurt and tie a person up.