Watered Down Martial Arts

[Daniel Sullivan]

^^ COOL ^^ :BSmeter: Whatever you say!

If you can find any BS in my posts, feel free to quote it and point out why it is BS. I am certainly open to retracting anything that I have said if it is, in fact, incorrect.

If you are really want to learn the reason why other people feel as you do regarding taekwondo, I'd be happy to discuss it with you.

There's a reason that I haven't commented much about the state of judo: I don't practice it and aside from knowing its origins and that the art involves throwing and grappling, I am unqualified to discuss it, its effectiveness outside of the ring, or how the technique set has been changed since the art's inception. I am unfamiar with kata and waza or what the rules of randori and kumite (does Judo even use that term?) are.

You seem to be in the same position with regards to knowledge of taekwondo, yet you have gone ahead and made definitive statements about the art anyway.

Daniel

 

[Champ-Pain]

I have not pretended to be an expert at TKD - or to even have any knowledge on the sport... I stated an opinion, nothing elses. My personal exposure to TKD may not have been much - but it was very negative in each case that saw the parents paying for belt promotions, the kids didn't deserve in the first place. Ridiculous what they charge per each belt promo, and every 3 months, no wonder kids make blackbelt in about 3 years. Kinda like robbing them, but without a weapon. In fact - they call it "Tae Kwon Don't" and "Take Ones Dough" in my area. I'm not making that up.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I have not pretended to be an expert at TKD - or to even have any knowledge on the sport... I stated an opinion, nothing elses. My personal exposure to TKD may not have been much - but it was very negative in each case that saw the parents paying for belt promotions, the kids didn't deserve in the first place. Ridiculous what they charge per each belt promo, and every 3 months, no wonder kids make blackbelt in about 3 years. Kinda like robbing them, but without a weapon. In fact - they call it "Tae Kwon Don't" and "Take Ones Dough" in my area. I'm not making that up.

That stuff is a huge issue. It is largest in taekwondo because taekwondo is the most popular MA. The popularity of taekwondo has also made it more pervasive in the art, though all that it takes for any art to suffer this nonsense is for it to be popular enough for entrepreneurs to target.

From what I have read, both from former and current ATA members and from others who have taken the time to learn about the ATA first hand, the ATA specializes in providing a fairly pricy after school and family activity geared towards suburban kids. I won't comment on the content of the curriculum because I have never practiced that style of taekwondo.

The phenomenon is not limited to taekwondo, nor is it limited to the ATA within taekwondo, though ATA taekwondo is the only one that seems to be set up this way at an organiztional level.

The issue that you are describing is often called McDojoism; a ridiculous level of commercialization that is established in order for the school to turn a greater profit.

Essentially, the basis of the model is that 99% of MA students quit either before or shortly after they get a black piece of cloth. Since you won't have the students much longer than a year or two, you charge on the high side for tuition, charge more for colored belt promotions, add more colored belts, and charge a whopper for the black belt test. Special clubs, such as black belt clubs and masters clubs, are an extra cost and frequently required for training beyond the bare minimum. Demo teams can sometimes be an extra cost as well: students must purchase a dobok/gi for the team. Often, an overpriced pro shop is part of the deal, with students required to buy all of their gear from the school.

Such schools offer all kinds of extra programs, such as XMA, MMA, Krav Maga, and all kinds of weapon curriculums in an effort to be all things to all people and to get more out of the students who do stay past black belt. Often though, such programs are fluff with instructors who are unqualified to teach them. So far, almost every sword program that I have seen added onto an unarmed KMA has been taught by unqualified people in the schools that I have visited (check out some of the KSA threads).

Students often must sign contracts for a year or more in order to insure that they cannot quit before that black piece of cloth is tied around their waist.

Because no student is failed in colored belt testings, nor held back, lest they not get far enough to be hit with a black belt test and its associated fee, the quality of the students suffers overall.

Because the emphasis is on "rah rah attaboy!" and on essentially graduating the students from the school after (usually) 24 months, the amount of correction and attention to detail is usually very low.

In order to avoid law suits and angry parents, sparring is usually made light to no contact while still requiring a ton of pads and in competitions, everyone gets a trophy.

Does this sound like what you have been seeing?

If so, then I am with you completely: such schools are worthless for anything but cheap daycare.

There are several schools like that around here. Surprisingly, most of them are not taekwondo.

Daniel

 

[Sensei Payne]

I have not pretended to be an expert at TKD - or to even have any knowledge on the sport... I stated an opinion, nothing elses. My personal exposure to TKD may not have been much - but it was very negative in each case that saw the parents paying for belt promotions, the kids didn't deserve in the first place. Ridiculous what they charge per each belt promo, and every 3 months, no wonder kids make blackbelt in about 3 years. Kinda like robbing them, but without a weapon. In fact - they call it "Tae Kwon Don't" and "Take Ones Dough" in my area. I'm not making that up.

We call those McDojos...it is quite possible for someone to get there black belt in 3 years...I did...but you have to go EVERYDAY...make it part of your life...like I did.

but there is Sport TKD and then there is Real TKD..both have its place and time...both good...but for different things...

Sport=fitness
Real=Defense

 

[Champ-Pain]

there is Sport TKD and then there is Real TKD..both have its place and time...both good...but for different things...

Sport=fitness
Real=Defense

I've been trying to make that point. I'm not putting down traditional / hard core TKD - only the Olympic version.

 

[ETinCYQX]

JudoChampion...I have to admit I'm partial to hitting submissions off the back of my opponents. A lot of local Judo players don't have or expect much of a submission game. That said, we roll too. Locally, we're known for our ne-waza.

We call those McDojos...it is quite possible for someone to get there black belt in 3 years...I did...but you have to go EVERYDAY...make it part of your life...like I did.

but there is Sport TKD and then there is Real TKD..both have its place and time...both good...but for different things...

Sport=fitness
Real=Defense

There is literally no such system as Sport TKD. Even Olympic athletes are KKW TaeKwonDo black belts. KKW TKD is no less "real" than ITF or whatever other organization one chooses to represent. I also feel the need to point out that I don't know a single "hard core" TKD practitioner, as you put it, who trains half as hard as I do. I'm in the gym five days a week and the dojang at least four, and I do it to get better at full contact fighting. I think how hard one works determines how hardcore you are, not the fact you don't compete or think competition is silly.

And before you jump on me, no, I'm not particularly hardcore. I'm a local competitor.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I've been trying to make that point. I'm not putting down traditional / hard core TKD - only the Olympic version.

But what do you know about the olympic version?

If you are thinking of what you have seen in ATA schools, it isn't the same.

If you've watched WTF/Olympic matches on youtube or elsewhere and don't like it, what is it that you did not like?

Daniel

 

[Champ-Pain]

1) But what do you know about the olympic version?

2) If you are thinking of what you have seen in ATA schools, it isn't the same.

3) If you've watched WTF/Olympic matches on youtube or elsewhere and don't like it, what is it that you did not like?

Daniel

1) Nothing! You got me.

2) I gotcha, understood.

3) I hated it! It looked like they were dancing - not fighting!


:slapfight:

 

[MJS]

Not to my knowledge. There was an 'Ohdokwan' which was a military gym where General Choi practiced, but there was really no Ohdokwan taekwondo. Most or all of the people training there where Chungdokwan members who were also in the military. Ohdokwan, if I recall, meant 'our way hall' and was not dedicated to a specific style. I'm sure that Earl or Glenn can offer much more detail than I on that one.

Also, at that time it wasn't called taekwondo. Pretty sure that the CDK was still calling it Tangsudo. In other words, they were still practicing Shotokan karate, which CDK founder held a dan grade in (fourth I believe).

The development of taekwondo as a separate art took well over twenty years. The CDK opened in 1944. The name, Taekwondo, was not coined until 1955. It was not adopted by the kwans as a whole until 1965. The Kukkiwon was establhised in 1973. Taekwondo debuted as an exhibition sport in the Olympics in 1988 and became a medaled sport in the ninties.

The sparring style seen in the olympics and in WTF events was developed to resemble taekkyeon. And if Hanja for taekkyeon had existed, it would be called taekkyeondo, not taekwondo. While taekwondo is not taekkyeon, creating a rule set that rewards high kicking and restricts hand techniques will make anything look like taekkyeon to someone who doesn't know what taekkyeon really looks like. It also made taekwondo tournaments distinct from open karate tournaments.

As far as military taekwondo, take Kukki taekwondo and make it part of regular Marine Corps training. No rule changes. Entire class are US Marines. The intructor is, lets say, a 5th dan Marine Corps drill seargant.

Now, imagine what their taekwondo will look like. Well, you don't have to imagine. Just watch the Korean team training in Best of the Best. Replace them with a bunch of US Marines and replace Hee Il Cho with a Marine Corps Drill seargant.

Same curriculum, whole different attitude.

Daniel

So, going on this, what would make the art, have less of a watered down appearance? I mean, going on posts/threads that I've seen here, seems the general consensus is the art is very watered down. Were the attitude, as you said, to be different, would this change the appearance? In your opinion, what would make it less watered down?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

So, going on this, what would make the art, have less of a watered down appearance? I mean, going on posts/threads that I've seen here, seems the general consensus is the art is very watered down.

Less an issue of the art itself being watered down/truncated than it is the level of commercialism in many schools. Taekwondo has suffered more than other arts because its popularity attracts entrepreneurs looking to cash in, so to speak.

The other issue is the demographic shift from mostly guys who liked to fight to families and kids and fitness minded adults.

With the high quanitity of children with black belts, rightly or wrongly, makes people assume that it must be watered down in order to accomodate kids.

Were the attitude, as you said, to be different, would this change the appearance? In your opinion, what would make it less watered down?

Good question. The forms have remained the same for forty years, so it isn't like they'd have to 'go back' to what they had. I think that the major appearance issue is the WTF sparring.

Not because it is good or bad, but because people see a sparring style that has a very limited range of techniques and doesn't look like guys doing 'karate.' So the assumption is that the art has been shorn of techniques, when in fact, this is not the case. The fact that the sparring is the most visible part of the art reinforces this.

So long as the bulk of your student base is children and their moms, the appearance will not change. Like anything else, there is a lot about Kukkiwon Taekwondo that outsiders just don't get.

The same could be said of Brazillian JiuJitsu. All some people see is two guys rolling around on the ground. Having grappling experience, I can see that there is a lot more going on, but that the perception of some people.

LIkewise, the nature of shihap kyorugi (sparring) is such that if you don't get it, you don't get it. It was designed specifically to make it, A.) not karate, and B.) look like Taekkyeon, a part of Korean cultural heritage.

I can tell you all day long about the merits of the sparring, but until you train in it, you probably won't 'get it.' Kind of like that Capoeira thread; F/C tried very hard to explain that there was more to the art than what is seen in the Roda. But that is the most visible part of the art. Mix in cultural traditions and things peculiar to the culture from which the art came, many people just don't get it.

Probably the one thing that would help the appearance of any school, TKD or otherwise, is a very strong teen and adult demo team that can effectively demonstrate the different aspect of the art, from tournament sparring to forms to self defense, and look crisp and sharp.

But so long as the bulk of the students are young kids and tweens, its hard to present an image of a fighting system when your classes look more like an MA version of Gymboree during the afternoon when most people will see your school.

Not busting on kids classes; the disposition is what it is.

Daniel

 

[OKenpo942]

I totally agree. Unless it was my initial intent to take it as a sport, I would never join a school that emphasized this type. I wanted to learn to fight/defend myself, not score points and earn trophies. I did this some and enjoyed it, however, my intent was never anything close to this.

I think it is bad for the various arts to water them down. The term is "martial art" . It was intended for war. Keep it that way.

Just my opinion,

James

 

[ETinCYQX]

Well, we just spent five pages establishing that TaeKwonDo was not developed for war. In fact you'll find that most martial arts were not.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

1) Nothing! You got me.

2) I gotcha, understood.

3) I hated it! It looked like they were dancing - not fighting!


:slapfight:

To YOU it looks like dancing because you dont understand it. To ME bjj looks like two grown men rolling around making love on the floor because I dont understand it. Difference is, I dont jump on the internet and bag out on something I dont understand or know anything about.

 

[Champ-Pain]

1) To YOU it looks like dancing because you dont understand it.

2) To ME bjj looks like two grown men rolling around making love on the floor because I dont understand it.

3) Difference is, I dont jump on the internet and bag out on something I dont understand or know anything about.

1) All I saw was a lot of jumping up and down (bouncing), hands held way-down low, more protective gear than what the gladiators wore, back in the day, and the occational kick to the head (one at a time) - BORING!!!

2) What don't you understand? BJJ? - Men Rolling? (rolling what?) - Making Love? - Love on the Floor? BJJ is a M/A form in which the object is to strangle, choke, armbar, leglock, etc, etc, etc your opponent until he/she surrenders - or before he/she does it to you. The other things on that list would take me far longer to explain. Don't have the time right now.

3) No, of course not. You bag out on the guy doing so. Thanks a lot. :wah:

 

[ralphmcpherson]

1) All I saw was a lot of jumping up and down (bouncing), hands held way-down low, more protective gear than what the gladiators wore, back in the day, and the occational kick to the head (one at a time) - BORING!!!

2) What don't you understand? BJJ? - Men Rolling? (rolling what?) - Making Love? - Love on the Floor? BJJ is a M/A form in which the object is to strangle, choke, armbar, leglock, etc, etc, etc your opponent until he/she surrenders - or before he/she does it to you. The other things on that list would take me far longer to explain. Don't have the time right now.

3) No, of course not. You bag out on the guy doing so. Thanks a lot. :wah:

As a tkdist who doesnt do "sport" tkd I spent years bagging out on it. Then one day I got the opportunity to spar one of those guys. Believe me, they are martial artists and with the speed and power in those kicks you want to be wearing protective gear. They regularly break ribs with those kicks despite the hogu. To you it looks like dancing, but I can assure you it aint dancing. And thats coming from someone who hates 'sport' tkd.

 

[MJS]

Less an issue of the art itself being watered down/truncated than it is the level of commercialism in many schools. Taekwondo has suffered more than other arts because its popularity attracts entrepreneurs looking to cash in, so to speak.

The other issue is the demographic shift from mostly guys who liked to fight to families and kids and fitness minded adults.

With the high quanitity of children with black belts, rightly or wrongly, makes people assume that it must be watered down in order to accomodate kids.

Sad but true.

Good question. The forms have remained the same for forty years, so it isn't like they'd have to 'go back' to what they had. I think that the major appearance issue is the WTF sparring.

Not because it is good or bad, but because people see a sparring style that has a very limited range of techniques and doesn't look like guys doing 'karate.' So the assumption is that the art has been shorn of techniques, when in fact, this is not the case. The fact that the sparring is the most visible part of the art reinforces this.

So long as the bulk of your student base is children and their moms, the appearance will not change. Like anything else, there is a lot about Kukkiwon Taekwondo that outsiders just don't get.

The same could be said of Brazillian JiuJitsu. All some people see is two guys rolling around on the ground. Having grappling experience, I can see that there is a lot more going on, but that the perception of some people.

LIkewise, the nature of shihap kyorugi (sparring) is such that if you don't get it, you don't get it. It was designed specifically to make it, A.) not karate, and B.) look like Taekkyeon, a part of Korean cultural heritage.

I can tell you all day long about the merits of the sparring, but until you train in it, you probably won't 'get it.' Kind of like that Capoeira thread; F/C tried very hard to explain that there was more to the art than what is seen in the Roda. But that is the most visible part of the art. Mix in cultural traditions and things peculiar to the culture from which the art came, many people just don't get it.

Probably the one thing that would help the appearance of any school, TKD or otherwise, is a very strong teen and adult demo team that can effectively demonstrate the different aspect of the art, from tournament sparring to forms to self defense, and look crisp and sharp.

But so long as the bulk of the students are young kids and tweens, its hard to present an image of a fighting system when your classes look more like an MA version of Gymboree during the afternoon when most people will see your school.

Not busting on kids classes; the disposition is what it is.

Daniel

IMO, it shouldn't be that hard to change though. It all comes down to whether or not someone actually wants to make a change for the better.

 

[ETinCYQX]

As a tkdist who doesnt do "sport" tkd I spent years bagging out on it. Then one day I got the opportunity to spar one of those guys. Believe me, they are martial artists and with the speed and power in those kicks you want to be wearing protective gear. They regularly break ribs with those kicks despite the hogu. To you it looks like dancing, but I can assure you it aint dancing. And thats coming from someone who hates 'sport' tkd.

See, Mr. McPherson gets it.

 

[seasoned]

Personally as someone who prefers the "battlefield arts" (as my Silat system-head describes), I don't care for watered down arts....at least for me.

people train for different reasons. People train for competition, for fun, for fitness, for a family exercise...I don't personally have an issue with why other people train. I just have an issue when it becomes so widespread that it is difficult to find rigorous arts out of fears of lawsuits, freaked out karate moms, a grisly clientele, or what have you.

Does a 4 year old have the same needs as a 31 year old? Does a bullied child have the same needs as the gifted athlete who just loves to compete? Does the woman trying to escape her abusive boyfriend have the same need as the parent who wants to have fun with their kids? Does the guy trying to put himself through school by driving a cab in the city have the same needs as the teen hoping that their MA background will show prospective colleges how well-rounded they are?

I happen to think there is room in Martial Arts for all of these people....but I'm not sure if the common approach of a homogenized one-size-fits-all program is the best way to teach everyone.

Carol has nailed it as about as good as anyone can. What it was intended for, and what it has evolved into, is two different issues. I will add that if you don't know what to look for pertaining to what you expect to gain from it, it can be daunting, to say the least.
As a side note, Carol mentions some expectations above that people may be looking for. I would say that almost any school will meet them. Now, if you are looking for a "DoJo", this will take a little more time and searching.
I do have a problem with a school that has something for everyone, when self defense taught properly, may not be for everyone. This can be misleading.

 

[Blade96]

To ME bjj looks like two grown men rolling around making love on the floor

In the kenpo school i trained at for 2 months before starting shotokan karate, there was a guy and a girl practicing bjj and a yellow belt who was watching said loudly :Get a room"
It was funny. we all cracked up.=]

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

IMO, it shouldn't be that hard to change though. It all comes down to whether or not someone actually wants to make a change for the better.

Good or bad, there are certain decisions that are already made that will not be unmade.

Starting with the Olympics, people who watch it and then disregard or disrespect it because they don't like the rule set are simply a fact of life. If you don't get it, you don't get it. There really is no way to change that short of radically altering the rules. Since they put the rules in place for specific reasons, the rules should not be changed.

The demographic is another thing: it is primarily families and kids followed by working adults who want to train and get into shape and 'always wanted to try karate.' No matter how badly we may want to change that, the bulk of MA students in the US fall into those categories. The bulk of those students are not going to turn into MMA champions or super street fighters, nor are they going to perform with 'military precision.'

Other organizations with differing goals on what taekwondo should be also affect things. The OP was criticizing "Olympic style" when what he actually had seen in his area was ATA style. To outsiders, there is just "taekwondo." Since you cannot control what other organizations do, that issue will never go away.

About the only thing that the Kukkiwon could do to would potentially address the gripes of people in the US would be to increase time in grade requirement for ildan to a hard 3-4 years.

No point in doing that though; the same people who complain about that would simply find something else to complain about.

Greater oversight might also help, but then the same people who complain about lack of enforcement on the Kukkiwon's part would then rail against some big "foreign org" telling them how to run their school.

Finally, I'm not sure that TKD's image with the general public needs any fixing. If its a question of impressing other MA practitioners, then I don't see the need.

Again the major issue is the commercialism factor, but that is hardly limited to Taekwondo.

Daniel