Was Rokas wrong about bujinkan?

Chris Parker

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I know next to nothing about the subject so have been reading with interest and a lot of confusion. I get the impression that there's two different subjects being discussed here? A genuine art and a fantasy one and posters are confusing the two? I keep waiting for @Chris Parker ! I may have to say his name twice more though.......

Hmm.... did you want me to get involved? I might just upset everyone.... especially with my current views... but, for the record, yes, Rokas was wrong, just not for the reasons he thinks. He was wrong for the same reasons he's been wrong about pretty much everything... which isn't to say he's not accurate in a number of points...
 

dramonis

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Rokas problem is: He wants to take the blame away from him and put it on something else.
He never learned how to fight because he fears it. He adopts a zen lifestyle and seeks a black belt in a martial art to make up for his fear.
And when he had a moment when a real confrontation would happen, he lost his mind because he avoided fighting his entire life.

Rokas is wrong simply because he doesn't understand fighting in general, I, a black belt in BJJ, enjoy using the tech of Bujinkan to cheat on championships not only Bujinkan but aikido as well.
The point is to use you should have an understanding of what the Soke or Creator of the art had in mind and really try to use it in every opportunity you have.

When you understand and know how to apply different techs, it will not be apparent that you are using tech from another martial art. For example, if you do a spinning kick from taekwondo in a kickboxing match and you are standing with a kickboxing base, how the hell the judge will know that you didn't use kickboxing?

Simply put Rokas's journey is not about which martial art is effective but is about a person facing his fears. I credit him for his courage, but he didn't learn how to assume his mistakes yet. This is great because he will need to be beaten and lose a lot of fights until having a step further and become a real fighter and humble his ego. And in my opinion, being on youtube training sparring is not the same as going to championships or even street fighting, a thing that he still avoids.
 

Denoaikido

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I've personally done bujinkan/ninjitsu & this is after I've done many other arts and I can say that it can be effectively used in the right settings just as any other martial art
 
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Cynik75

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... And in my opinion, being on youtube training sparring is not the same as going to championships or even street fighting, a thing that he still avoids.
MMA fights does not count?
 

dramonis

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MMA fights does not count?
Does he go to a championship or was sparring with a friend being filmed to post on youtube?
cuz there is a huge difference btw fighting with someone that has the real intention of knocking you out and friendly sparring...
in friendly sparring you want the punch to touch and show the opening, you want to do a submission that is less aggressive than a punch you control yourself when throwing the person to not hurt your partner so is a different dynamic. it can happen to get someone with bad intentions, yes it can but, in his videos, this is not shown. why won't go to a real championship and post on youtube?
 

Tony Dismukes

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Does he go to a championship or was sparring with a friend being filmed to post on youtube?
cuz there is a huge difference btw fighting with someone that has the real intention of knocking you out and friendly sparring...
in friendly sparring you want the punch to touch and show the opening, you want to do a submission that is less aggressive than a punch you control yourself when throwing the person to not hurt your partner so is a different dynamic. it can happen to get someone with bad intentions, yes it can but, in his videos, this is not shown. why won't go to a real championship and post on youtube?
Rokas has a couple of amateur MMA fights under his belt at this point, I believe.

Championships in MMA are not something you can just go sign up for. The matchmakers for each promotion decide who gets a shot at the title, based on their fight records (as well as other concerns such as which matchups will sell the most tickets/pay-per-views).
 

drop bear

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There is no evidence of ninjitsu being successful in fights.

This is the claim Rokus made.

Now to counter that claim ninjas just show ninjas being successful in fights. It is simple easy and an obvious solution.

Everything else isn't countering that claim. It is just tragically dancing around the issue hoping people are to stupid to notice.
 

dramonis

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There is no evidence of ninjitsu being successful in fights.

This is the claim Rokus made.

Now to counter that claim ninjas just show ninjas being successful in fights. It is simple easy and an obvious solution.

Everything else isn't countering that claim. It is just tragically dancing around the issue hoping people are to stupid to notice.
There is an issue.
As was said here before, a championship or even a video of a street fight is not also proof of ineffectiveness.

for instance how many times did you see in a jiu Jitsu championship/street fight a Pace Choke? the fact that is rare to see, does mean is proof of ineffectiveness?

how mainstream is the martial art? to be able to see a random person on street know about the martial art, what is the average age of ppl who practice a certain martial art, and how many actually need to use this method of self-defense?

there are a number of variables to be evaluated, is not just said cuz we don see in place A or B that certain tech or martial art doesn't work.

if we are constantly practicing martial art we will notice what are our limitations and when is the moment to apply a certain concept or tech
 

dramonis

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Rokas has a couple of amateur MMA fights under his belt at this point, I believe.

Championships in MMA are not something you can just go sign up for. The matchmakers for each promotion decide who gets a shot at the title, based on their fight records (as well as other concerns such as which matchups will sell the most tickets/pay-per-views).
Ok, didn't know about the organization in Europe/USA, but in brazil is quite easy to find regular and irregular championships to participate... btw I lost a lot cuz usually ppl are almost professional level but is a great experience.
 

Tony Dismukes

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Ok, didn't know about the organization in Europe/USA, but in brazil is quite easy to find regular and irregular championships to participate... btw I lost a lot cuz usually ppl are almost professional level but is a great experience.
Ah I think there may be a language issue here. You seem to be using championship to mean any tournament or competition. Thats not usually* the case in English, especially in MMA. Since modern MMA fighters generally only have one fight per event, it wouldnt make sense to call every fight a championship. Championship fights in MMA are those designated for determining title holders in a given promotion and the contestants in those fights are typically those who have proven themselves in previous matches. The same would hold for boxing. In combat sports where athletes can have multiple matches in a single event, then a championship would generally indicate a more prestigious tournament, possibly one where contestants earned their place through success in other tournaments. (ADCC would be an example of this.)

*(I say usually because there are a fair number of local tournaments out there which seek to inflate their image by declaring themselves to be championships. Thats more typical of point karate than MMA or BJJ, though.)
 

Tony Dismukes

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I, a black belt in BJJ, enjoy using the tech of Bujinkan to cheat on championships not only Bujinkan but aikido as well.
So you say that you are a black belt in BJJ and you cheat in competition? Interesting. How exactly do Bujinkan and Aikido techniques help you cheat on BJJ?
 

dramonis

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So you say that you are a black belt in BJJ and you cheat in competition? Interesting. How exactly do Bujinkan and Aikido techniques help you cheat on BJJ?
Bujinkan to cheat, use the Kyusho under the ear during a takedown which is an illegal move but the way that is taught you can do it.
another Kyusho on the elbow grabs that during the takedowns, if the person doesn't complain well nothing happens.

Aikido is not cheat, is more about understanding about takedowns how to avoid or where put pressure, or even a feint to lead to a takedown
 

dramonis

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Ah I think there may be a language issue here. You seem to be using championship to mean any tournament or competition. Thats not usually* the case in English, especially in MMA. Since modern MMA fighters generally only have one fight per event, it wouldnt make sense to call every fight a championship. Championship fights in MMA are those designated for determining title holders in a given promotion and the contestants in those fights are typically those who have proven themselves in previous matches. The same would hold for boxing. In combat sports where athletes can have multiple matches in a single event, then a championship would generally indicate a more prestigious tournament, possibly one where contestants earned their place through success in other tournaments. (ADCC would be an example of this.)

*(I say usually because there are a fair number of local tournaments out there which seek to inflate their image by declaring themselves to be championships. Thats more typical of point karate than MMA or BJJ, though.)
Thanks for the explanation, and sorry for my mistake English is not my first language.
 

Tony Dismukes

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Bujinkan to cheat, use the Kyusho under the ear during a takedown which is an illegal move but the way that is taught you can do it.
another Kyusho on the elbow grabs that during the takedowns, if the person doesn't complain well nothing happens.

Aikido is not cheat, is more about understanding about takedowns how to avoid or where put pressure, or even a feint to lead to a takedown
Hmm Im a BJJ instructor, and Ive never heard of any rule against using Kyusho points under the ear or on the elbow. I just went and double checked the official IBJJF rule book, and I dont see anything about it there. What rules are you breaking exactly?
 

dramonis

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Hmm Im a BJJ instructor, and Ive never heard of any rule against using Kyusho points under the ear or on the elbow. I just went and double checked the official IBJJF rule book, and I dont see anything about it there. What rules are you breaking exactly?
I don't really know, I got a few disciplinary penalties in competitions usually the judge uses the rule:
6.1.3 When an athlete bites, pulls hair, strikes or applies pressure to the genitals or eyes, or intentionally uses a traumatic blow of any kind (such as punches, elbows, knees, head butts, kicks, etc).
Since then always thought that movement can be considered illegal and always try to use in a concealed way.
 

Tony Dismukes

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I don't really know, I got a few disciplinary penalties in competitions usually the judge uses the rule:

Since then always thought that movement can be considered illegal and always try to use in a concealed way.
Unless you were actually striking the pressure point, that rule shouldnt apply. (Of course if you were striking, then it would be a foul regardless. Save that for MMA.) I dont know what the refs were thinking. Then again, Ive never competed in Brazil so I dont know what judging standards are like.
 

drop bear

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There is an issue.
As was said here before, a championship or even a video of a street fight is not also proof of ineffectiveness.

for instance how many times did you see in a jiu Jitsu championship/street fight a Pace Choke? the fact that is rare to see, does mean is proof of ineffectiveness?

how mainstream is the martial art? to be able to see a random person on street know about the martial art, what is the average age of ppl who practice a certain martial art, and how many actually need to use this method of self-defense?

there are a number of variables to be evaluated, is not just said cuz we don see in place A or B that certain tech or martial art doesn't work.

if we are constantly practicing martial art we will notice what are our limitations and when is the moment to apply a certain concept or tech

You would need the video to exist first before you worry about the details as to how applicable or representative of the style it was.

Rokus I believe received no videos of anything other than excuses.

Wing chun was the only guys who could actually provide anything.
 

drop bear

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Hmm Im a BJJ instructor, and Ive never heard of any rule against using Kyusho points under the ear or on the elbow. I just went and double checked the official IBJJF rule book, and I dont see anything about it there. What rules are you breaking exactly?

If you were obviously jamming a single finger in the neck. Would that be frowned upon? I normally do fist or elbow or knee or something.

There is a neck grab where you latch on to the muscle at the side and kind of roll it forward. Or even slapped on collar ties.
 
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dramonis

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If you were obviously jamming a single finger in the neck. Would that be frowned upon? I normally do fist or elbow or knee or something.

There is a neck grab where you latch on to the muscle at the side and kind of roll it forward. Or even slapped on collar ties.
Well, in this case, is a finger behind the ear connection with the jaw, during the movement to make a takedown, it hurts as fk and can be considered illegal.

btw the video just proves what I said, just because is rare and not mainstream isn't proof of ineffectiveness.
See videos of ppl fighting on the street and talk more about how popular the art is instead of how effective is.

And once more, For use a tech from a martial art you don't need to be in the kamae (guard) of the martial art like a martial art dummy, especially if you are training in Bujinkan is a recurrent theme the Hatsumi says to lose the kamae and adapt the tech to yourself.

More one thing, for example, Tachi nage if you see in MMA you will say is judo, but can also be from Bujinkan and when you are fighting with a stance like anyone else you will never notice from where it came from. Another example is Mawashi Geri karate is the same as round kick and is the same as dollyeo chagi teakowondo, if the person is fighting you will never know from which art it came from, cuz this I repeat Rokas don't understand fighting and much less data interpretation.

Fighting has a sweet spot to jiu Jitsu, to kickboxing, to aikido and etc work anyone who fights constantly knows, is not A or B doesn't work is more about our own judgment that is unreal in terms of timing.

just to add
Enson Inoue was a black belt in bujinkan and bjj and a really good old school mma figther.
 

dunc

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My issue with Rokas is that Ive provided a balanced perspective for him and offered to have him visit my dojo and spar with us any time. Ive made my offer via all the channels that I can find for him, but hes ignored it and has chosen to engage with other folk (that happen to reinforce his perspective)
 

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