WAM/Violent Tapi-Tapi? What gives?

[Guro Harold]

"Whoop *** Method"? "Violent Tapi-Tapi"?

What gives with these aggressive titles that are now being associated with IMAF, Inc Master Level instructors?

I personally would be concerned marketing these seminar titles especially in the event that some did Whoop someone's *** and it wasn't in self-defense.

One of the smartest slogans I have seen from another group is "Keep yourself from Harm" and they teach every blade you can think of.

Keep in mind, I have no idea as to what is being taught I and I know and have much respect to the teachers of these seminars but I don't agree with the title of the programs.

You're thoughts?

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

What are you talking about?

 

[Guro Harold]

I'll try to post the flyers.

 

[Guro Harold]

See now what I'm talking about?

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

So you have a problem with Brian Johns and Jim Ladis?

 

[Guro Harold]

Of course not. The topic is concerning the titles of the programs.

And BTW, its not Brian's program, it appears to be Chuck's.

Sent from my SCH-I800 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Who cares? If that's how they want to market themselves that's their call. If I where you, I would worry about what you where doing and ignore the rest.

 

[BrianZ]

Gentlemen, respectfully, this stops right here, right now. Please review the flyer carefully and let me know where you see IMAF anywhere on the flyer because it simply does not exist. Jim is doing this seminar under his own banner of Modern Arnis Chicago, not IMAF. This event and any advertising associated with it is independent of IMAF, LLC.

Harold, With regard to this flyer, I am sure it was an honest oversight in your associating Jim with IMAF as he is of course one of the Masters of Tapi Tapi, however, this is not an IMAF sanctioned event. FYI- The Masters of Tapi Tapi are authorized to teach under IMAF, and they can teach independently under their own banner. Keep in mind that IMAF events must be sanctioned by the Masters collectively.

Under IMAF, the Masters' values, direction, passion, and efforts remain unchanged in that we continue to uphold the teachings and highest standards of our Teacher.

Regards,
Master Brian

 

[Guro Harold]

Hi Everyone,

This is a Modern Arnis Forum with a history of discussing things relating to the Modern Arnis community. It's ok to discuss things for clarification because in this case, Modern Arnis as described by the Professor was considered a Self-Defense Martial Art, and he didn't want to train "Killers". That is why this struck me. I have every right to discuss this in a public forum since these are public event no matter where in the world I live or hang out at (Ain't it cool to be an American?). Also, I have much respect for the individuals who posted these events and though its been a while since I have seen them, the titles seem to differ from what I remember.

Finally, there was no judgement here, I did not attack the individuals involved and got an answer and that how we do things on this forum.

Brian, I do thank you for your response, and I do agree if there are any events that are unrelated to IMAF, Inc (in this case), then there should be a disclaimer, but as you can clearly see the brochure has Modern Arnis Chicago. Just bear in mind this thread was not a slam and its ok for me to state a concern and my own personal opinion which will not be stopped by anyone just as long as I adhere to the rules on this forum.

On that note, any post unless otherwise noted, I speak for myself and no other persons or organization.

Thanks everyone.

 

[BrianZ]

Harold,
As you can see by my elite "white belt" status , I almost never post on this forum.
You are correct in that you can post and discuss at will, providing it falls within the parameters
of the forum. I seldom post, but I am kept abreast of many topics by my students.
In your first sentence, you indicated that these aggressive titles are now being associated with IMAF.
That really is an unfounded assumption, and the IMAF cannot possibly offer a disclaimer on a flyer that is not sanctioned by IMAF. That is beyond our control.
I did not take your post as a slam, as I know that is not your nature. I would like to humbly suggest that
you contact IMAF directly with any questions you may have in the future.
Sincerely,
BZ

 

[Guro Harold]

Thanks Brian!

We all care about the legacy of GM Presas and we have utmost belief in each other. That's what matters.

I will contact you directly if I have any other questions in the future.

As far as disclaimers, usually the sponsor of the events should provide those to avoid confusion.

Harold,
As you can see by my elite "white belt" status , I almost never post on this forum.
You are correct in that you can post and discuss at will, providing it falls within the parameters
of the forum. I seldom post, but I am kept abreast of many topics by my students.
In your first sentence, you indicated that these aggressive titles are now being associated with IMAF.
That really is an unfounded assumption, and the IMAF cannot possibly offer a disclaimer on a flyer that is not sanctioned by IMAF. That is beyond our control.
I did not take your post as a slam, as I know that is not your nature. I would like to humbly suggest that
you contact IMAF directly with any questions you may have in the future.
Sincerely,
BZ

 

[Happy Gypsy]

Harold,
As you can see by my elite "white belt" status , I almost never post on this forum.
You are correct in that you can post and discuss at will, providing it falls within the parameters
of the forum. I seldom post, but I am kept abreast of many topics by my students.
In your first sentence, you indicated that these aggressive titles are now being associated with IMAF.
That really is an unfounded assumption, and the IMAF cannot possibly offer a disclaimer on a flyer that is not sanctioned by IMAF. That is beyond our control.
I did not take your post as a slam, as I know that is not your nature. I would like to humbly suggest that
you contact IMAF directly with any questions you may have in the future.
Sincerely,
BZ

Hell BrianZ,

As you can see, I am alo a memebr of the elite "white belt" grouping on this forum. So as one "white belt" to another I have to say that I disagree with you on one comment that you made:

"In your first sentence, you indicated that these aggressive titles are now being associated with IMAF.
That really is an unfounded assumption, and the IMAF cannot possibly offer a disclaimer on a flyer that
is not sanctioned by IMAF. That is beyond our control."

There is very reason to question if the flyer in question and the the statements or titles printed therein are associated with the Modern Arnis Group bettter known as the MOTTS. Mr. Ladis is a known member of that group. The flyer also contains the term "Modern Arnis Chicago"! Therefore, it is reasonable to conclude - rightly or wrongly - based on a known MOTT associate being involved with that seminar program, that there is some sort of connection to the MOTTS. In addition the seminar topic is "Tapi-Tapi". Of course there are some things that the general public, not associated with the MOTTS does not and can not be expected to know. You mentioned one of those things in your reply to Guro Harold.

If the seminar sponsor is acting outside of his MOTT affiliation, he should have posted such a disclaimer on his flyer. While the MOTTS organization can not control or force a disclaimer in every questionable case, certinly the organization can sanction a member for acting in a manner that does not present the other members in a GOOD light.

I agree with Guro Harold that the flyer should have been questioned.

Respectfully,

Gitano

 

[MJS]

Yet one would assume that if it were an IMAF sanctioned event, it'd be posted here. However, it is not listed there, which would read to me, that it is an event, seperate from the IMAF.

What I do find interesting is the thought that the IMAF is taking a violent path. IMO, no matter how you slice or dice it (no pun intended) the art is brutal. Perhaps a bit toned down for the simple fact that we're in a different time, where stuff of this nature is frowned upon. For the same reason that alot of the knife work that we see is more defensive, rather than offensive, yet any student who's been at it for a while, can easily 'see' the more offensive side to it.

Furthermore, if someone is that concerned with the "Whoop ***" title, one need not look too far (youtube) at some other FMAs and see quite an aggressive and potentially deadly assortment of knife work, stuff that were someone to actually do, would probably land them in jail, despite their claims of SD.

 

[Brian Johns]

Interesting thread. Let's break it down starting with Master Chuck's "violent tapi tapi." This was in the context of a poll on his Facebook page and not a marketing slogan per se. If you look elsewhere on his Facebook Page, do you see anything along those lines? I think that it's a mite bit unfair to take one thing and extrapolate it to something bigger.

Regarding Master Jim Ladis' WAM seminar/camp, if you know Jim, you would know that he has a sense of humor and he is anything but violent.

As MJS points out, there are many examples on YouTube with respect to other FMAs. Being that today's generation is more visual than textual, I think that YouTube has more of a draw than text based ads or polls.

Lastly, Harold, I find it ironic that you're concerned with these titles when there's a certain "King of Kerambit" who posted videos of himself doing 12 cuts in 1.5 seconds. :ultracool Are those types of YouTube videos not a form of advertising/marketing?

Regards,
Brian

 

[Guro Harold]

Hi BrianJ and MJS, this is a Modern Arnis thread and this was a Modern Arnis topic with the concentration based on hearing the Professor stating that Modern Arnis was a self-defense art, which seemed out of character with those new titles. No one ever said that Modern Arnis or any FMA was without violence but that wasn't the focus of teaching from GM Presas, who sat us down at least several times in the small time that I knew him and attended his seminars took the time to convey that to us.

The question I asked was based on that impression. I didn't say that the instructors were wrong but wanted to gain understanding and clarification.

As far for other arts, if it is blade oriented and communicates that it is blade or combatives oriented then that is the nature of the program.

I stated my personal opinion concerning how things are labeled. There have been other topics like this in the knife forums in that what would you want your carry to be named if you were stopped, HandyTool 3000, or Slit'EmGood 3000?

I have heard of cases where the self-defense instruction was the key to whether or not the instructor contributed to the liability of the student who was involved in an excessive force case. As a result I tend to be cautious as to how I personally label and market the arts that I teach. Even down to the logo of my organization.

Finally, I am not in the business of telling anyone what to do but as for myself, at this present time, I would be cautious of putting anything out there like these titles for a self-defense art.

- When I teach FCS or SFC Archipelago Combatives it is indeed all weapons at hand from a defensive and combatives perspective.
- When I teach Modern Arnis, its my take on Modern Arnis with limited blade work (modified).
- When I teach aspects of Sil-Lum Kung fu, it is both defensive and offensive minded with all weapons at hand.

 

[Guro Harold]

As far as the "King of Kerambit" and him doing 12 cuts in 1.5 secs?

The Professor introduced Tuhon Ray as one of his proteges and helped produce the Principles of the Blade video.
He has always been known for his Blade work along with his other formable skills, nor has he ever been advertised as far as I have know as primarily as teaching a self-defense oriented art.

I think he sizes himself up very well in this paraphrase - "Don't get me wrong, I hate violence, I'm just very Good at it!"

 

[Happy Gypsy]

Interesting thread. Let's break it down starting with Master Chuck's "violent tapi tapi." This was in the context of a poll on his Facebook page and not a marketing slogan per se. If you look elsewhere on his Facebook Page, do you see anything along those lines? I think that it's a mite bit unfair to take one thing and extrapolate it to something bigger.

Regarding Master Jim Ladis' WAM seminar/camp, if you know Jim, you would know that he has a sense of humor and he is anything but violent.

As MJS points out, there are many examples on YouTube with respect to other FMAs. Being that today's generation is more visual than textual, I think that YouTube has more of a draw than text based ads or polls.

Lastly, Harold, I find it ironic that you're concerned with these titles when there's a certain "King of Kerambit" who posted videos of himself doing 12 cuts in 1.5 seconds. :ultracool Are those types of YouTube videos not a form of advertising/marketing?

Regards,
Brian

Hello Guro Johns,

With all due respect, I have to disagree with your position regarding Guro/MOTT Jim Ladis. I do not know him nor am I aware of his reputation for having a sense of humor. All I have to judge him by is his flyer. I suspect that more people than not are unaware of exactly who Guro Ladis is or what sort of personality he has. Therefore, his flyer is his image for most people viewing his flyer. You obviously know him and can read the copy as well as read between the lines, thereby sensing the implied tongue in cheek humor disguised within the copy. I can defer to your knowledge of the man, however, that does not mean that I am now totally convinced that Guro Harold was over-reacting to the flyer.

As for your remark about "...I find it ironic that you're concerned with these titles when there's a certain "King of Kerambit" who posted videos of himself doing 12 cuts in 1.5 seconds." That was both unnecessary and totally off topic. The kerambit is not a part of Modern Arnis weaponry as best as I can tell. Busting Guro Harold's chops by going off-topic doesn't change the strength and clarity of his questions and concerns. Discussing Guro Ladis' sense of humor is a much better approach and sheds some light on the flyer and the "whoop ***" lead-in contained therein.

Respectfully yours,

Gitano

 

[Happy Gypsy]

As far as the "King of Kerambit" and him doing 12 cuts in 1.5 secs?

The Professor introduced Tuhon Ray as one of his proteges and helped produce the Principles of the Blade video.
He has always been known for his Blade work along with his other formable skills, nor has he ever been advertised as far as I have know as primarily as teaching a self-defense oriented art.

I think he sizes himself up very well in this paraphrase - "Don't get me wrong, I hate violence, I'm just very Good at it!"

Hello Guro Harold,

Thanks for your post quoted above. You clarified a couple of things for me.

Regards,

Gitano

 

[MJS]

`

Hello Guro Johns,

With all due respect, I have to disagree with your position regarding Guro/MOTT Jim Ladis. I do not know him nor am I aware of his reputation for having a sense of humor. All I have to judge him by is his flyer. I suspect that more people than not are unaware of exactly who Guro Ladis is or what sort of personality he has. Therefore, his flyer is his image for most people viewing his flyer. You obviously know him and can read the copy as well as read between the lines, thereby sensing the implied tongue in cheek humor disguised within the copy. I can defer to your knowledge of the man, however, that does not mean that I am now totally convinced that Guro Harold was over-reacting to the flyer.

I'm not Brian Johns, but I'll comment anyways. Like I said, this is not an IMAF Inc event. If it were, it'd be listed on the site that I linked. To be honest, I have no idea what sparked him to call it "Whoop ***", or what he's going to be teaching.

As for your remark about "...I find it ironic that you're concerned with these titles when there's a certain "King of Kerambit" who posted videos of himself doing 12 cuts in 1.5 seconds." That was both unnecessary and totally off topic. The kerambit is not a part of Modern Arnis weaponry as best as I can tell. Busting Guro Harold's chops by going off-topic doesn't change the strength and clarity of his questions and concerns. Discussing Guro Ladis' sense of humor is a much better approach and sheds some light on the flyer and the "whoop ***" lead-in contained therein.

Respectfully yours,

Gitano

I didn't see this as busting chops, I saw it as stating fact! Off topic? Perhaps a bit, however, anyone who is remotely familiar with the Prof or any old stories, would attest to the fact that the art in fact was very violent and has since been toned down. But, since the topic of other arts is deemed off topic by some, I'll go ahead and start a new thread in the General FMA section, where we can discuss the violence thats seen in other FMAs.

 

[Guro Harold]

MJS, I think there is an aspect that you are missing.

The late GM Remy A. Presas stated and conveyed that Modern Arnis was a Self-Defense art. He did this on film and in his seminars. IMAF, Inc is an organization that reflects the desires and path of GM Presas.

Again the challenge of teaching Modern Arnis is that one would need to be mindful of the intentions of GM Presas and how they represent his ideas.

This is the crux of this discussion in this thread.

Now if someone has documented references that this premise is incorrect, they are welcome to document this in this thread.

Honestly no one, including yourself have not.