Use of Hip - technical discussion

[Makalakumu]

I want to start a technical discussion on the use of hip. Some threads in the kenpo section really got me thinking about the nitty gritty dirty details about our art and I think this rabbit hole is pretty much the ceterpeice of TSD training.

Here are a couple of questions to kick this thing off.

1. Why is the use of hip important? (this is for noobs)
2. How does your dojang train students to use their hips?
3. Which techniques do you feel you get power?
4. Do you translate the use of hip principle into your kicking?
5. What does your Grandmaster (or your teacher) have to say about this concept?
6. Do you think that our stance work articulates the body so that we can maximize our use of hip?

Hopefully, we can spin off some good questions and good discussions from this starter thread. If we get sidetracked, great! Lets start new threads. In the end, hopefully we can come to a deeper understand of TSD.

upnorthkyosa

 

[Makalakumu]

I like to think of the use of hip starting from the bottom of the feet up. Our stance work is very specific on foot placement for a reason. Adjusting the angle of the feet in relation to the hips can completely negate any root one is able to obtain.

Take Chun Gal Jaseh for instance. If one twists the back foot toward the plane of the hips (a common white belt mistake) the forward integrity and root of the stance is compromised.

The more I think about some of these techniques, the more I realize that the essence of Tang Soo Do is really measured in a few inches. The snapping of the hip drives the entire body into the strike in order to deliver power. None of this matters if the feet are not connected to the earth though...aka Newton's Third Law.

"Beware of Happy Feet," my teacher advised me.

upnorthkyosa

 

[Makalakumu]

I was thinking about the feet in regards to the side kick and about how we aligned our hips. As the he chambering position for a side kick uncoils, the bottom foot pivots so that the spine comes in line with the hips as the kick is complete. The hips are driving forward and the pivot of the foot articulates the body for impact. If the heel is used for striking and the striking foot is turned slightly down, the force of the kick should be directly transferred through the leg, into the pelvis and up the spine. In essence, the entire body kicks.

upnorthkyosa

 

[tsdclaflin]

"How does your dojang train students to use their hips?"

Although we haven't done it in a while, I like to doing forms with my hands behind me tucked into my belt. This allows me to focus on my hip movements rather than my hands. A step-punch is totally different without the punch.

-Ken

 

[Makalakumu]

"How does your dojang train students to use their hips?"

Although we haven't done it in a while, I like to doing forms with my hands behind me tucked into my belt. This allows me to focus on my hip movements rather than my hands. A step-punch is totally different without the punch.

-Ken

Try that exercise and then try punching a bag, see if you can notice a difference. My teacher showed us video of boxers rooting their feet with the same mechanisms that we practice in order to punch harder.

The bottom line...root the feet, move your hips, move your body, punch harder.

 

[Pale Rider]

As torque is important to a vehicle, hip torque must be utilized in order to get the full power from a technique. Without it we are just barely scratching the surface. Rotation of the hips generate power.

 

[MBuzzy]

I want to start a technical discussion on the use of hip. Some threads in the kenpo section really got me thinking about the nitty gritty dirty details about our art and I think this rabbit hole is pretty much the ceterpeice of TSD training.

Here are a couple of questions to kick this thing off.

1. Why is the use of hip important? (this is for noobs)
2. How does your dojang train students to use their hips?
3. Which techniques do you feel you get power?
4. Do you translate the use of hip principle into your kicking?
5. What does your Grandmaster (or your teacher) have to say about this concept?
6. Do you think that our stance work articulates the body so that we can maximize our use of hip?

Hopefully, we can spin off some good questions and good discussions from this starter thread. If we get sidetracked, great! Lets start new threads. In the end, hopefully we can come to a deeper understand of TSD.

upnorthkyosa

I know, this is a VERY old thread. But I would like to see if we can get it rolling again as I feel it is at the base of our style.

1. Obvious, the hips are where all movement comes from. They generate your power and should be the starting place of all movement, both leg and arm.

2. This is a fairly deep question. SBD trains very heavily in the use of Hu Ri and makes it obvious in every movement. The best way that I've found of training the hips is through the use of our transition movements. The Chook and Shim, during basics, students are taught to "wind up" (chook) and then release (Shim). The wind up generally involves turning the body (and therefore the hips) to open or close the hips depending on the technique. For kicking, basically, it is a matter of where the hips are going. e.g. for Front kick, your hips should be moving forward, Side kick, rolling down and back, etc.

3. I'm not exactly sure what this question meant (not sure if UpNorth remembers either ), but here is an issue I have with power and hips. In kicking movements and blocks with a lot of sideways movement (side kick, ahneso pahkuro mahk kee), it is EASY to feel the influence of the hips. But how about in a standard Choong Dan Kong Kyuk? The punch should be generated from the hips, but it is hard to feel. I occassionally find myself throwing punches from the shoulder and have to concentrate on that hip motion. Front kick is the same, it is very easy to just snap the kick out there with no hip movement. So how do you emphasize the hip in movements like this?

4. Hips in kicking....honestly, in Korea we didn't train the use of our hips as much in kicking. It was always there, but not focused on. We did drills designed to get your hips moving, but it was never talked about. Since I've started training here with a strong FOCUS on the hips, my kicks have changed drastically, in power and technique.

5. Kwan Jang Nim Hwang isn't too subtle about this point...basically the use of hips is at the foundation of our style.

6. I think that front stance CAN be used to accentuate the hips, but only if used properly. It is easy to get into the habit of keeping the shoulders AND hips square. For me though, Hu Gul Jaseh is the most difficult stance in which to make USE of the hips. I don't feel that the stance naturally lends itself to the full motion of hip movement in hand techniques. Kicking, no problem, since your back leg is moving from rear to front by use of the hip. With hand movements though, you are dealing with a front arm, so the hips are easy to miss.

Basically, I'm most interested in getting this thread restarted to get other organizations and practitioner's views of the use of Hu Ri. Before I came to the US SBD Fed, I never got such a strong focus on hip movement. Having it here has really advanced my technique though.

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

I'll echo what upnorthkyosa and MBuzzy have said, and to it add my two cents.

1. Your hips are connected directly to your spine, which is the center of your body's framework. They're like the handle that twists your whole body around. Get them to provide your power, and you'll get a lot more of it, without risking hurting yourself.

2. Any move is a target for "Use your hips!" It's one of the things we work on specifically when doing basics, hyung, anything. So there's really not a point in class where you shouldn't be worried about using your hips. Makes it hard for me to point out specific things we do, if you get my drift.

3. All of them, when I'm doing them correctly.

4. Kinda makes sense, doesn't it? The leg bone's connected to the... hip bone, the hip bone's connected to the... back bone, my foot bone's connected to your...jaw bone...

5. Dittos.

6. Yes. One of the things that's been of particular focus lately, is pivoting your back foot when going into hugul jase. That pivot just as you land turns your hip over, which, for pretty much any move for which you'd use a hugul jase, gives you that extra power and snap to drive it home. As for chungul jase and keema jase, they both have their uses as well, and the position of the hips determines how they get used.

Tang Soo!

 

[Makalakumu]

It's interesting to see this old thread come up because I can see what I was thinking and I can see how it has changed over time.

For example, I'm fairly convinced that with some moves, the use of hip is more important then with others.

Another thing, with other styles of karate, there are several different ways of moving the hips. Each is very distinct and have large effects on application.

 

[MBuzzy]

It's interesting to see this old thread come up because I can see what I was thinking and I can see how it has changed over time.

For example, I'm fairly convinced that with some moves, the use of hip is more important then with others.

I would agree that the use of hips is more important with some moves than with others. For example, some blocks in hugul jaseh, can be used simply to deflect and open your opponent up for another attack. The problem with that stance is that it is particularly difficult to chamber your hip in once direction. Your rear hip is already open, but what if you need it to be closed or are using your front hip.

One that I have particular difficulty with is Sang Dan Mahk Kee....since the block is moving up across your body, I can't feel the impact of the hip movement very well. If you throw your hips kind of diagonally up, it has some impact on power, but I feel the most of the power is generated from the velocity of your arm.

This is where I've seen some confusion. In doing a stepping Jump front kick, we would step forward, chamber the hip in the opposite direction, then switch the hip for the movement, kind of counter intuitive, but required to get your hips in the right position.

Another thing, with other styles of karate, there are several different ways of moving the hips. Each is very distinct and have large effects on application.

That is something I would like to explore if anyone has some input....in what ways do other styles use their hips that differ? I mean, I can only really think of a finite number of ways to use them for each movement.

 

[fuzbuckle]

2. How does your dojang train students to use their hips?
upnorthkyosa

One of the things that we have done is to let your arms hang loosely at your sides and then step forward into Hu Gul Jaseh as if you were going to perform Choon Dan Soo Do Mahkee but still let your arms hang. Those who are twisting their waste will see their arms flail wildly.

 

[MBuzzy]

One of the things that we have done is to let your arms hang loosely at your sides and then step forward into Hu Gul Jaseh as if you were going to perform Choon Dan Soo Do Mahkee but still let your arms hang. Those who are twisting their waste will see their arms flail wildly.

I've seen the same method used, but I notice that a lot of student "cheat" this method. Basically, once they figure out the proper response, they start flailing their arms on their own...kind of eliminates the point.

 

[Viper720]

we found the same thing when using the flailing arms method. So we started using the belts in the same way. If the belt ends were long on the student, get them to walk through a hyung or Choon Gul Jaseh or Hu Gul Jaseh etc.. If they are using the hip effectively the belt would flail and not the arms

 

[fuzbuckle]

Another way that my Sa Bom Nim has helped students to incorporate the use of waste twist is to focus on the pulling motion of the back hand in performing choon dan kong kyuck. This is a simple exercise but is effective in helping students to recognize the fulcrum motion that it creates, particularly in Keemah Jaseh.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I want to start a technical discussion on the use of hip. Some threads in the kenpo section really got me thinking about the nitty gritty dirty details about our art and I think this rabbit hole is pretty much the ceterpeice of TSD training.

Here are a couple of questions to kick this thing off.

1. Why is the use of hip important? (this is for noobs)
2. How does your dojang train students to use their hips?
3. Which techniques do you feel you get power?
4. Do you translate the use of hip principle into your kicking?
5. What does your Grandmaster (or your teacher) have to say about this concept?
6. Do you think that our stance work articulates the body so that we can maximize our use of hip?

Hopefully, we can spin off some good questions and good discussions from this starter thread. If we get sidetracked, great! Lets start new threads. In the end, hopefully we can come to a deeper understand of TSD.

upnorthkyosa

I find I get good hip use if you cock the kick underneath you rather cocking once you have aimed with the knee. Its just like punching but upside down.
Sean