US guns flooding into Mexico

[ballen0351]

Very true! That's even more reason why we need to "try" harder to stop the flow of guns south. The "compounding" fits into all these posts.

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Why is it our job to stop crime in Mexico?

 

[Big Don]

Why is it our job to stop crime in Mexico?

If we did, we'd be accused of wanting an EMPIRE. If we don't, the stupid will blame us for it.

 

[Blindside]

Let Pfizer, Johnson & Johnson, etc sell low-risk recreational drugs as competition. The Zetas and their ilk will stop when we stop buying.

I don't have any issue with certain legalized drugs, the problem is that no one is going to legalize heroin or meth or will be able to provide an alternative with a comparable high, so you will always have an market for the product.

 

[billc]

Has anyone considered that obama and holder might still be sending guns down to Mexico. Think about it. They did not have any real consequences for getting caught doing it the first time, despite the deaths of 2 federal agents and over 300 Mexican citizens...and only a few low level flunkies at Justice department either lost their jobs or were demoted...you would have to look that up. So what would be the reason to not send more guns down there, especially with this new anti-gun push. It is his last term, the Republicans don't have the guts to impeach him, they already held holder in contempt....they very well could have sent more guns down there again...

 

[James Kovacich]

Right but if its the US consumer that keeps the drugs flowing this way isnt the mexican consumer keeping the uns flowing that way?

Heres a good idea lets secure the border. Like for real secure it not fake vitural fences


whats your plan?

I say secure the border too. Anybody that has ever crossed the US/Mexico border knows we have to wait in line for a long time. When I crossed it took over 2 hours to get back in the US. If we don't start addressing our borders better, it will be like that going both ways.

 

[James Kovacich]

Why is it our job to stop crime in Mexico?

What??? The "crimes" are on "our" side of the border trying to smuggle the guns into Mexico. How about we catch the criminals here first!

I"m really surprised by your posts being LE and all. Lately your logic is sounding less like LE and more like Bill and Don! :whip1:

 

[James Kovacich]

If we did, we'd be accused of wanting an EMPIRE. If we don't, the stupid will blame us for it.

Are you for real. We are an EMPIRE. We are THE EMPIRE. If we are going to go around the world acting like the world police, then we'd better well do it in our own backyard! You guy crack me up. :whip:

 

[ballen0351]

What??? The "crimes" are on "our" side of the border trying to smuggle the guns into Mexico. How about we catch the criminals here first!

I"m really surprised by your posts being LE and all. Lately your logic is sounding less like LE and more like Bill and Don! :whip1:

If the gun is legally owned in the US its not a crime until it crosses the border.
If its not legally owned here then Its kinda like the loud drunk at the bar that cusses at the cops over and over but as hes cussing hes walking home. Im not going to mess with him if hes leaving. Same with the guns if they are leaving then they are not going to be my problem anymore. Sure its a poor attitude but I got my hands full dealing with the problems right here. If I find them fine Ill do what I got to do but I wouldnt make it a priorty like your making it out to be.

 

[Uncle]

Are you for real. We are an EMPIRE. We are THE EMPIRE. If we are going to go around the world acting like the world police, then we'd better well do it in our own backyard! You guy crack me up. :whip:

Actually in a lot of cases the US does what Rome did. You invade a country and install or allow or coerce the election of someone favorable to your agenda. They are then expected to explicitly or covertly follow your lead. These are not labelled as conquered territories but "America's allies" much like "friends of Rome."

 

[James Kovacich]

If the gun is legally owned in the US its not a crime until it crosses the border.
If its not legally owned here then Its kinda like the loud drunk at the bar that cusses at the cops over and over but as hes cussing hes walking home. Im not going to mess with him if hes leaving. Same with the guns if they are leaving then they are not going to be my problem anymore. Sure its a poor attitude but I got my hands full dealing with the problems right here. If I find them fine Ill do what I got to do but I wouldnt make it a priorty like your making it out to be.

It's a felony to "attempt" to take them into Mexico.

 

[ballen0351]

It's a felony to "attempt" to take them into Mexico.

Is it? I have no idea I dont work in that type of Law Enforcement.
If your right then its already a crime and if the warehouse is as full as you say then they are doig the best they can what more do you want them too do?

 

[Blindside]

It's a felony to "attempt" to take them into Mexico.

Can you cite this US law? Usually laws involving transport of well, anything fall onto the country you are transporting too. If I take legal marijuana from Washington State into Canada, the law that I will get prosecuted under is Canadian law.

 

[James Kovacich]

Can you cite this US law? Usually laws involving transport of well, anything fall onto the country you are transporting too. If I take legal marijuana from Washington State into Canada, the law that I will get prosecuted under is Canadian law.

No I can't but I've been watching Border War before going to work and I'm sure I heard it there. If it wasn't illegal how could they make the arrest and consficate the guns on this side of the border? Also guns are illegal in Mexico. A single gun on the Mexico side can get someone a stiff prison sentence.

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[James Kovacich]

I googled it but the punishment didn't seem to come up onlynthat smuggling guns into Mexico was illegal.
http://www.ice.gov/firearms-explosives-smuggling/

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[James Kovacich]

Write to obama and ask him to stop giving those guns to the bad guys...that will go a long way to solving the problem...

I just stumbled on this. It reports that the George Bush administration "walked" guns over into Mexico. Maybe we found the big guy who signed off on the deal.
http://www.mainjustice.com/2011/10/...xico-during-george-w-bush-administration-too/

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[James Kovacich]

Are you for real. We are an EMPIRE. We are THE EMPIRE. If we are going to go around the world acting like the world police, then we'd better well do it in our own backyard! You guy crack me up. :whip:

WOW, that post earned me a negative rep point!
This is threir response. "words have meanings" cheap shot...

 

[billc]

Sorry, the program under Bush was called "Wide Reciever," and the one under obama and holder is "Fast and Furious," and there are major differences, the major one being when a couple guns "walked," across the border under Wide Reciever, they realized what a bad idea it was and stopped the program...obama and holder sent 2500 fully automatic weapons into Mexico with no way to track them...because they wanted to jump start the gun control debate...

Here are two looks at the differences between Bush's operation and obama's criminally negligent one...

http://reasonedpolitics.blogspot.com/2012/02/wide-receiver-vs-fast-and-furious.html

Wide Receiver vs. Fast and Furious

Main Page
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Didn't this all start under Bush? Didn't he do the same thing? Didn't his "Wide Receiver" operation use the same tactics?

The short answer is ABSOLUTELY NOT. The longer and more accurate answer follows.

Under the Bush administration, several sting operations were conducted in which straw buyers were allowed to purchase guns and attempts were made to follow the guns to, and in some cases over, the border. The largest and most well known operation was called “Wide Receiver”. The other operations were similar. During these operations approximately 200-250 firearms “got away”. The fact that some guns did cross the border is the only similarity between the Bush era program and Fast and Furious.

Let’s compare the two programs:

Cooperation with Mexico:
Wide Receiver: Mexican Law Enforcement notified, Mexico consented and was a full partner.
Fast and Furious: Mexico intentionally kept in the dark. No coordination or consent.

Surveillance of Firearms:
Wide Receiver: Agents attempted to keep track of the guns at all times.
Fast and Furious: Agents were ordered not to track the guns after they were purchased.

Use of Tracking Devices:
Wide Receiver: Extensive – placed in every lot of guns purchased
Fast and Furious: One “agent built” device in one gun

Performance of Tracking Devices:
Wide Receiver: Smugglers figured out how to defeat trackers
Fast and Furious: Smugglers didn’t have to do anything

Number of Firearms Sent to Cartels:
Wide Receiver: About 250
Fast and Furious: Exact number unknown, but over 2,500

Actions at the Border:
Wide Receiver: Attempted to hand off surveillance to Mexican law enforcement
Fast and Furious: ATF worked with Customs to make sure guns were not stopped at border

Reaction to guns “getting away”:
Wide Receiver: Program terminated. William Newell wrote memo saying “never again”
Fast and Furious: Program continued – recovered guns tracked and mapped.

Ironically, Wide Receiver provides an excellent example of a truly “botched sting operation”. The purpose of the Bush era programs was to track the guns to and over the border where Mexican law enforcement would make arrests. It was poorly planned and executed – but it at least has some potential to work and serve a law enforcement purpose. Make no mistake – Wide Receiver should result in heads rolling – but the program was not designed to send guns to the cartels.

Another point: Since the Phoenix ATF had experience with this kind of operation, why would they think that a program with many less safeguards would ever work?Why was such an operation begun with months of President Obama taking office and immediately after their bogus numbers on US retail sourced guns going to Mexico were exposed as false? Sadly, the answer is obvious.

In contrast, Fast and Furious was designed to pump guns into Mexico, without the knowledge of the Mexican government. Without their knowledge and cooperation, their was no chance of making arrests as a result of allowing guns to cross the border. Therefore, there was no law enforcement purpose. It was designed and executed for the purpose of sending guns from US retail outlets to the cartels. It was not a “botched sting operation” – it was a correctly executed plan with a very evil purpose.

This begs the question: What was the purpose of sending these guns into Mexico, where they were used to kill hundreds of Mexicans?

If one looks at what this could accomplish, the only answer on the table is the same one named by both the whistle blowing agents and the former head of the Pheonix DEA office who was “in the loop”: The passage of new gun control laws in the US.

http://conservativebyte.com/2012/06/wide-receiver-vs-fast-and-furious/

Wide Receiver was an attempt to build a case against gun smugglers and the drug cartels, to find out who they were, where they are. The purpose of Fast and Furious was to build a case against the Second Amendment. In a nutshell, Wide Receiver began in 2005. It involved four hundred guns. All of the weapons in Wide Receiver had RFID trackers installed in them, and they were actively tracked. Only the Phoenix ATF and DOJ were involved. The Mexican government was kept fully informed. They were an active participant. In Wide Receiver, the ATF agents tried to track the guns using radio devices and aircraft. They wanted to find out where the guns ended up, into the hands of which cartels and where they were, so that a case could be made. It was an effort to track these people to find them, locate them.



The Bush administration, as part of Wide Receiver, notified the Mexican government when arms and drug smugglers were crossing. When the guns were being walked across the border or when they had been purchased legally, being taken back to Mexico, the Mexican government was notified.

At least 1,400 arrests were made as part of Wide Receiver. Now, once ATF found out the smugglers were disabling the tracking devices, the RFID tracking devices that were planted in the guns, they ripped them out and then the guns were lost. So the program was shut down in October of 2007. Once the bad guys discovered the tracking devices, the program was ended, in 2007. Ended.

Now, here’s Fast and Furious by contrast.

Fast and Furious began in October of 2009. Obama is in his tenth month. Wide Receiver doesn’t exist. It’d been shut down for two years. Fast and Furious involved over 2,000 guns. Wide Receiver was 1,400 guns. Roughly. No tracking devices were planted in the Fast and Furious guns. The regime didn’t care where they ended up. There were no tracking devices. No effort was made to track them. No helicopters. There was no on-the-ground surveillance of the straw purchasers. None of it. The guns were sold, they were walked across the border, and that was it. Four federal agencies were involved in maybe as many as 10 cities in five states.

In contrast to Wide Receiver, the Mexican government was not notified the program even existed.

They did not use tracking devices or aircraft to try to find and track the smugglers.

The local ATF field agents were ordered not to follow the straw purchasers.

Fast and Furious is as bad as everything you have conjured it to be in your mind. Wide Receiver has nothing in common, other than guns crossing the border. That’s it. Federal agents, furthermore — are you following all this, Snerdley? — federal agents were not allowed to interdict the guns and they even ran interference for the smugglers with local law enforcement on multiple occasions to make sure those guns made it across the border.

A

Read more: http://conservativebyte.com/2012/06/wide-receiver-vs-fast-and-furious/#ixzz2J7OW5kvN

 

[James Kovacich]

Sorry, the program under Bush was called "Wide Reciever," and the one under obama and holder is "Fast and Furious," and there are major differences, the major one being when a couple guns "walked," across the border under Wide Reciever, they realized what a bad idea it was and stopped the program...obama and holder sent 2500 fully automatic weapons into Mexico with no way to track them...because they wanted to jump start the gun control debate...

Here are two looks at the differences between Bush's operation and obama's criminally negligent one...

http://reasonedpolitics.blogspot.com/2012/02/wide-receiver-vs-fast-and-furious.html


http://conservativebyte.com/2012/06/wide-receiver-vs-fast-and-furious/



A

Read more: http://conservativebyte.com/2012/06/wide-receiver-vs-fast-and-furious/#ixzz2J7OW5kvN

So your saying even though the this process started under Bush, Obama is guilty because the guns were lost??? I'm sorry my friend, Obama didn't doing any gunwalking. It was the ATF that blundered this, the same ATF that Bush used. ATF at times seems to be a black eye for law enforcement.


http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/10/05/earlyshow/main20115824.shtml?tag=contentBody;cbsCarousel
Attkisson asked, "When you look back and think in hindsight knowing what we know now - that all those guns were going on the street - what do you think about?"
Detty said, "It really makes me sick."
Attkisson noted that all this happened under the Bush administration - three years before the start of "Fast and Furious," the better-known ATF operation under the Obama administration that has come under scrutiny . "Fast and Furious" allegedly let thousands of weapons fall into the hands of Mexican drug cartels, and is now the subject of two investigations.
The "Fast and Furious" tactic of letting guns "walk" was exposed after Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry was murdered last December and at least two assault rifles from "Fast and Furious" were found at the scene.
As for its predecessor, "Wide Receiver,": prosecutors finally, quietly, rounded up seven suspects last fall. No cartel leaders, just buyers who - critics say - should never have been allowed to put even one weapon on the street, let alone operate for years.

 

[billc]

You need to read my post a little more carefully...

Reaction to guns “getting away”:
Wide Receiver: Program terminated. William Newell wrote memo saying “never again”
Fast and Furious: Program continued – recovered guns tracked and mapped.

Actions at the Border:
Wide Receiver: Attempted to hand off surveillance to Mexican law enforcement
Fast and Furious: ATF worked with Customs to make sure guns were not stopped at border

The Bush program was ended in 2007 because they couldn't control it...that was the quality that must have attracted obama and holder...

At least 1,400 arrests were made as part of Wide Receiver. Now, once ATF found out the smugglers were disabling the tracking devices, the RFID tracking devices that were planted in the guns, they ripped them out and then the guns were lost. So the program was shut down in October of 2007. Once the bad guys discovered the tracking devices, the program was ended, in 2007. Ended.

The guns weren't "lost," they were intentionally flooded into Mexico so they could be found at arrest sites and could then be used to blame the U.S. gun market...jump starting obama's anti-gun program.

Fast and Furious began in October of 2009. Obama is in his tenth month. Wide Receiver doesn’t exist. It’d been shut down for two years. Fast and Furious involved over 2,000 guns. Wide Receiver was 1,400 guns. Roughly. No tracking devices were planted in the Fast and Furious guns. The regime didn’t care where they ended up.

 

[Blindside]

I googled it but the punishment didn't seem to come up onlynthat smuggling guns into Mexico was illegal.
http://www.ice.gov/firearms-explosives-smuggling/

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Found it, the Arms Export Control Act, basically you need a license to export firearms.