United States A Nation of Cowards??

[Thesemindz]

I posted my opinion on Black History Month in this thread, four years ago, in the aftermath of Morgan Freeman's well meant but somewhat misguided comments. I think I'll quote it in its entirety, since it still seems appropriate:



As to the greater issue of the original post-Holder is right and wrong. We're having the conversation, but right here and now most of us are actually having a conversation about the conversation-and the responses in that regard are telling. There are people who post here who are never going to say exactly how they feel about blacks and poverty, or blacks and crime, or the (non)issue of reparations, or any number of things, for fear of being labeled "racist." There are posters here who aren't going to say anything about any of those things because they know that they are racists. There are people who will try to talk about any number of "racial" issues, but try to ignore that there are real and legitimate differences between people-that our country has developed with distinct cultures that influence each other, and have for centuries.

Oh, well....

I'll talk about it happily.

I've worked with black people, and native americans, and japanese people, and homosexuals, and even canadians. In my experience, some people are bastards, and others are decent human beings. So far, I haven't noticed any correlation between heritage and behavior.

What I have noticed is a correlation between education and behavior, and poverty and behavior, and life experience and behavior.

Getting a poor education can lead to people being ignorant pricks. Unfortunately, our government schools do a lousy job of educating people.

Being poor can lead to people being hateful pricks with no hope. Unfortunately, our economy is causing a lot of people to be poor.

Having little or no life experience can lead to people being ignorant, hateful pricks. Unfortunately, when you're poor and uneducated you tend to be lacking in life experience.

But while those things can lead to that kind of behavior, they don't have to. I've known poor, uneducated people who've never left the state who are kind god fearing neighbors.

Do black people face these problems? Sure. In some parts of the country. But you can find poor, uneducated people in other parts of the country who are white too.

One of my coworkers grew up in Chicago, and he used to complain about how the black people would move into a neighborhood and ruin it and drive all the whites out of town. Then they'd move into the next neighborhood over and the whole process would begin again. They'd drive down house values, and leave junk vehicles on their lawns, and do drugs and drink alcohol in public. He thought this was because they were black. I tried to explain to him that it had more to do with education and poverty than melanin, but he wasn't listening.

You can look around the city I live in, and find lots of white people who are uneducated, ignorant scumbags. They are a fine example of all the worst humanity has to offer. Drug abuse. Child abuse. Spousal abuse. Self abuse. And they're white through and through.

I get pissed when someone tells me I'm a racist because I take part in a system that's "inherently racist," or, "built on racism." I wasn't given an option to not take part in this system.

I get pissed when someone tells me that blacks, or asians, or muslims, or homosexuals are "the problem." That's crap. Personally, I think government is the problem.

I get pissed when people try to find excuses for their struggles in life instead of trying to find ways to work harder and do better. We've all got problems. Get over it. Get a second job like everybody else.

I get pissed when people use the terms bigotry, racism, and prejudice interchangably. They are seperate terms with seperate meanings. Bigotry is an irrational hatred of others because they are different. Racism is the belief that one race is genetically superior or inferior to another. Prejudice is a predetermined decision made about a subject without sufficient experiential knowledge. If I hate black people, I'm a bigot. If I think white people are smarter than black people, I'm a racist. If I think black people are all thieves, I'm prejudiced.

Life's hard. I'm sure it's even harder when you're black, or homosexual, or arab, or british when you live in America. I know it's hard when you're fat, or have long hair, or wear hand me down clothes.

Most of the people I've known don't really care about race or ethnicity. Some do. They're usually losers.

As to how I feel about blacks and crime, or blacks and poverty, I think the second qualifier is a lot more important than the first. Criminals are scum, poor people are struggling. Does it matter what their skin tone is? That's more a matter of demographics than one of cause and effect.


-Rob

 

[searcher]

We are nation of cowards that fought like h3ll to give him the right to speak his mind, but if he thinks I would stand up to defend him, he had better think again. I swore my oath to protect this The Constitution and the people of this country, not its politions.

 

[Empty Hands]

To my fellow white people: stop whining. Seriously, it's just embarrassing. You should know damn well why Black History Month is probably a good idea, while White History Month would just be dumb. You know why the BET network is OK, while the WET would not be. You know why the NAACP and the UNCF is just dandy while the NAAWP and the UWCF would be protested.

Stop being disingenuous.

It's all part of the cowardice that Holder is addressing. America has a history of racism with blacks and other minorities that still has effects today. Racism is a problem for blacks and other minorities today. Pretending we are all equal now or that protestations of racism is "playing a card" or "whining" or "using a crutch" is part of that cowardice and unwillingness to address reality. Racism is an ongoing institutional problem that can only be addressed by constantly talking about it and moving forward as a people. Pretending it doesn't exist will just make it all worse, as the previous example of the French experience exemplifies. We've been getting steadily better on this score; let's not allow that progress to halt.

I could post all of the actual data that proves me right, like the studies about resume callbacks with "black" names. Like usual in these threads though, the actual evidence would just be ignored in favor of what everyone already "knows." So I will end with just a simple plea: find some actual black people and ask them about their experiences. Maybe you'll think they're just "whiners", but you might also be surprised and shocked about some of the crap they have to go through. I certainly was.

 

[MA-Caver]

I don't know about anybody else, but I have been made hyperaware my whole life of how "racist" I must be if I even mention another person's race when describing him/her. "See, you described him as Asian, that proves you're really bigoted, why didn't you just say he was dark haired and brown eyed" for instance.

In our overly PC modern culture, anything you say with regards to race can and will get used against you. So, yes, I am afraid to be "outed" as a closet racist if I talk about a person's race at all.

That's the whole crux right there. Racial stereotyping but forced labeling. Instead of Black History Month why aren't they calling it African American History Month (what? takes too long to say it? doesn't have quite the same ring?) doesn't it mean the same thing??

I've mentioned this before... that we (whites) HAVE to use the terminology of African American to indicate those of darker skin, dark eyes and whose (now ancient) ancestors were native to the continent of Africa, is just plain ridiculous. If they're born here and their fathers and grandfathers were born here... they're American... just ... like... me.

If they're going to gripe about stereotyping then they need to stop doing it themselves.
Why is it NOT offensive to call me white/Caucasian? Why not call me Irish American? Why is it bad (for me) to use the moniker "black man/woman" ?? I use it anyway... in-so-far I've yet to have a black person stand up look at me belligerently and asking in that high-pitch "SAY WHAT?!!?" when I say oh that black guy over there told me this or that, (because he's standing in a mixed crowd)...

Either way I've been working REAL hard, personally to even get rid of "noticing" a man's skin-color. Yes I can see the difference in pigmentation but I try not to acknowledge it, or not prioritize it.
I am trying hard to not say African American man or black man but instead just say a man. No different, no better, no worse than I am. Only their ACTIONS will determine their differences, better or worse character than mine. Their skin color don't have a damned thing to do with it in my book.
I'm not perfect in that but I'm really working hard on it.
When doing sign-language interpreting of a college basketball game for my dad I don't see 4 black players and one white player on a particular team I just see a bunch of guys all wearing the same color jerseys and working towards the same goal of winning the game.

But my dad does... he asks me ... "is the team all black?" (remember he's not only deaf but also blind)... and I tell him yes or no. But then he's 82 yrs. old. he grew up in the real segregated south as a child, his father figure was bigoted so it passed on to him... he witnessed first-hand the riots in Washington D.C. when Dr. King was assassinated... all the rioters were black and not a mix of outraged blacks and whites over the loss of a great man. So what other opinion is he supposed to have.
What opinion am I supposed to have... my own and my own struggle to break free of the ones he's tried to hand down to me.

I've had blacks save my life before on the streets when I should've been stabbed or shot, I've been invited by a black friend to attend a family picnic and I'm the only white there, I've roomed with 7 other recovering alcoholics and all of them were black... SO WHAT? In my mind I scream SO WHAT? They're just people. ... just like me. Same applies to Asians, Hispanics, Indians, Arabs, Aborigines and whatever other races there might be.

 

[Empty Hands]

I've mentioned this before... that we (whites) HAVE to use the terminology of African American to indicate those of darker skin, dark eyes and whose (now ancient) ancestors were native to the continent of Africa, is just plain ridiculous.

No we don't. I can only remember actually using "African-American" once. The rest of the time it's "black." No one looks twice.

Why is it bad (for me) to use the moniker "black man/woman" ?? I use it anyway... in-so-far I've yet to have a black person stand up look at me belligerently and asking in that high-pitch "SAY WHAT?!!?" when I say oh that black guy over there told me this or that, (because he's standing in a mixed crowd)...

See, you don't have to use "African-American." No one really cares.

Either way I've been working REAL hard, personally to even get rid of "noticing" a man's skin-color. Yes I can see the difference in pigmentation but I try not to acknowledge it, or not prioritize it.

That just ends up being pathological. This is part of why white folks are so bent out of shape about this issue. The color of someone's skin is a noticeable trait. Same as being tall, or female, or blonde. You don't have to refuse to acknowledge someone's hair color in order to feel they have the same rights and value as everyone else. Same with skin color. You can say "oh, that black guy over there" without thinking he is less. I promise you, almost no one will care.

 

[Gordon Nore]

We are nation of cowards that fought like h3ll to give him the right to speak his mind, but if he thinks I would stand up to defend him, he had better think again. I swore my oath to protect this The Constitution and the people of this country, not its politions.

Clarifications on the following, please...

"that fought like h3ll to give him the right to speak his mind"
When and where? Did he forget to send a thank-you note or something?

"I swore my oath to protect this The Constitution and the people of this country, not its politions"
What oath? Did it say politicians 'are not people of this country.'

 

[Hand Sword]

Well the question is WHY are we?
Is it because we may accidentally step on a nerve?
That the "N-word" might slip out during the conversation?
That our real prejudices may show through during the course of the conversations?

Because for a couple of generations now, it's been drilled about being colorblind and PC. Now, that's exactly what happens when PC is the status quo--avoidance of the issues.

 

[Carol]

That just ends up being pathological. This is part of why white folks are so bent out of shape about this issue. The color of someone's skin is a noticeable trait. Same as being tall, or female, or blonde. You don't have to refuse to acknowledge someone's hair color in order to feel they have the same rights and value as everyone else. Same with skin color. You can say "oh, that black guy over there" without thinking he is less. I promise you, almost no one will care.

I think there's more of an issue when subtle (or even not-so-subtle) prejudice works its way in to the conversation. If I'm a newbie to a martial arts class and someone says "Mark will work out with you today", and I respond with a confused look, I don't think its insulting anyone if I was told "Mark is the black fellow over there holding the focus pads."

Where I do think there is an issue is if someone says in a denigrating tone "I had to work out with the black guy today" instead of "I had to work with a guy that kicked my butt on the mat". Or if race is used to punctuate a story, as in "...we were lost and trying to find our way back to the subway when all of the sudden this black guy comes up to us from out of nowhere," as if being approached by a person that was black made the unnerving experience (of being lost) even scarier. (Maybe it did?)

 

[Marginal]

He offered fairly mild rhetoric all things considered. It's not a one sided issue. It's not like one race or ethnicity is busy building cross cultural bridges.

(Half expected the thread to be about Ann Couture's new book about the last election or something.)

 

[jarrod]

Is there a "National White Women Day?"

Or am I playing into a stereotype by even asking???:lfao::lfao::lfao:

oh, lawdy, no! its always ok to bring up dem lovely white ladies. ah, lawdy! i love me dem white wimmin.

Exactly. The media here wont even describe a crime suspect as a "black (or white) male" anymore.

i don't mind it in the media, but it bugs the hell out of me when i'm watching boxing.

"jones in the black trunks with the white trim. smith also in black trunks, with sort of a yellow fringe on it..."

it'd be nice if they could just say "jones is the black guy. smith is the white guy."

jf

 

[elder999]

I've mentioned this before... that we (whites) HAVE to use the terminology of African American to indicate those of darker skin, dark eyes and whose (now ancient) ancestors were native to the continent of Africa, is just plain ridiculous. If they're born here and their fathers and grandfathers were born here... they're American... just ... like... me.

Well, no, you don't. We were black before we were "negroes"; we were black before we were "Afro-Americans," we were black before we were "African American."

I'm still black.-don't even get me started on the excrable "Native American"-I'm still an Indian :lfao:

.
Why is it NOT offensive to call me white/Caucasian? Why not call me Irish American? Why is it bad (for me) to use the moniker "black man/woman" ?? I use it anyway... in-so-far I've yet to have a black person stand up look at me belligerently and asking in that high-pitch "SAY WHAT?!!?" when I say oh that black guy over there told me this or that, (because he's standing in a mixed crowd)...

Interestingly, most "white" Americans of whatever descent typically refer to themselves that way: Scotch-Irish, Italian, polish, Irish, etc. No hyphens involved...:lol:


As for the rest of it-stop trying so hard. When my son was about three years old and playing with his crayons, he made the observation that there were "pink people and brown people." Having relatives with hues from both spectra was a big contributor to that, of course. :lol: Today, he's an award winning slam poet, and his poem "Pink and Brown," talks about that very thing-and the state of race relations in his corner of the U.S.:

......... a city favorite by the name of Cuffee graced the stage and delivered again a story about racial inequalities and the struggles of racism experienced in his childhood. Aaron Cuffee is of mixed race; his poem “Pink and Brown,” tells the story of how he never understood the concept of black and white as a child, but instead referred to everyone, as either “Pink or Brown.” The poem itself recounts an incident in an airport where Aaron’s dad is discriminated against because he is black, and the flight attendant calling for Aaron’s parents over the PA system, not believing that he is in fact Aaron’s father. The poem takes on an angry and frustrated tone, but ends with the realization that Cuffee himself has none of these discriminatory thoughts towards those that discriminate against him, that he in fact loves, he loves pink and he loves brown.

Seen Here I can't quote the whole poem, because it's in a book(and, even though it has my name on it, it's not mine :lol: )-but that's the country and the world we live in: people see differences, and make judgements based upon them, for good or ill.

 

[Gordon Nore]

Interestingly, most "white" Americans of whatever descent typically refer to themselves that way: Scotch-Irish, Italian, polish, Irish, etc. No hyphens involved...:lol:

Quite so. If, for instance, I were to self-identify as Norwegian or Scandinavian, that would go largely unchallenged, nor would it be interpreted as an act of disloyalty to my Canadianism.

 

[Xue Sheng]

At the risk of being called jingoistic again….

China? Hahahaha. Go see how many gringos are over there.

Gringos I wouldn’t know but there are an awful lot of yáng guǐzi, guǐlǎo, and hóng máo guǐzi there

And has a thousand some-odd year history of being almost completely culturally and racially homgeonous, as well as isolated. More's the pity, but it's not like they can help it.

Very true and through in a reference to Shinto and you got it

There are, in fact, a great many Americans working in China. Additionally, the "native" populace of that very, very large country is composed of a variety of ethnicities that aren't really "Chinese."

Unless your Han people you just are not real Chinese in the eyes of the Chinese (Han people). And there are a whole lot more in China than Han people

Hàn Zú, Zhuàng Zú, Mǎn Zú, Huí Zú, Miáo Zú, Wéiwúěr Zú, Tǔjiā Zú, Yí Zú, Měnggǔ Zú, Zàng Zú, Bùyī Zú, Dòng Zú, Yáo Zú, Cháoxiǎn Zú, Bái Zú, Hāní Zú, Hāsàkè Zú, Lí Zú, Dǎi Zú, Shē Zú, Lìsù Zú, Gēlǎo Zú, Dōngxiāng Zú, Gāoshān Zú, Lāhù Zú, Shuǐ Zú, Wǎ Zú, Nàxī Zú, Qiāng Zú, Tǔ Zú, Mùlǎo Zú, Xíbó Zú, Kēěrkèzī Zú, Dáwòěr Zú, Jǐngpō Zú, Màonán Zú, Sǎlá Zú, Bùlǎng Zú, Tǎjíkè Zú, Āchāng Zú, Pǔmǐ Zú, Èwēnkè Zú, Nù Zú, Jīng Zú, Jīnuò Zú, Déáng Zú, Bǎoān Zú, Éluōsī Zú, Yùgù Zú, Wūzībiékè Zú, Ménbā Zú, Èlúnchūn Zú, Dúlóng Zú, Tǎtǎěr Zú, Hèzhé Zú, Luòbā Zú

And that is just the minorities of China not including the westerners and others that live there.

Are they racist? About as racist as everyone else on the planet I guess.

Interestingly, most "white" Americans of whatever descent typically refer to themselves that way: Scotch-Irish, Italian, polish, Irish, etc. No hyphens involved...

A lady I worked with who was from Germany pointed that out to me awhile back and she thought it was pretty damn funny

 

[jetboatdeath]

I don’t think it is a “Black/Brown/Yellow/Red thing it is culture.
When immigrants came to this country they were expected to assimilate to American culture, sure they could stay in the China towns but not much was offered to them because they were not truly part of the American culture.
But now we Americans are expected to assimilate to accommodate the immigrants, Spanish only driving manuals, English as a second language in schools.
They came to America for a reason to better themselves and God bless them for it, but they are the ones that need to except that there will be hardships like learning a new language and some of their culture will not be accepted in the United States. I spent a few years overseas mainly in Germany. I did not see an English driving manual, English menu (not even McDonalds) no special provisions were made for me because of my language or culture. I learned the culture of the Germans and had the time of my life.
We are all Americans and more now than ever we need to use that to our advantage. But I will put on my tin foil hat for this one.
They don’t want us to be a huge group of likeminded like cultured Americans, that would put the power back where it belongs in the hands of the American people. 99% of the blacks know nothing of the African culture other than what they have read in books or heard from TV. They are Americans just as you and me. If I were black if someone called me African I would stand proudly and say nope I am American..
And don't fly the flag of your nation in America that is an insult not to mention illeagle. The only foreign flags I saw in Germany was at the bases.

 

[MA-Caver]

I don’t think it is a “Black/Brown/Yellow/Red thing it is culture.
When immigrants came to this country they were expected to assimilate to American culture, sure they could stay in the China towns but not much was offered to them because they were not truly part of the American culture.
But now we Americans are expected to assimilate to accommodate the immigrants, Spanish only driving manuals, English as a second language in schools.
They came to America for a reason to better themselves and God bless them for it, but they are the ones that need to except that there will be hardships like learning a new language and some of their culture will not be accepted in the United States. I spent a few years overseas mainly in Germany. I did not see an English driving manual, English menu (not even McDonalds) no special provisions were made for me because of my language or culture. I learned the culture of the Germans and had the time of my life.
We are all Americans and more now than ever we need to use that to our advantage. But I will put on my tin foil hat for this one.
They don’t want us to be a huge group of like minded like cultured Americans, that would put the power back where it belongs in the hands of the American people. 99% of the blacks know nothing of the African culture other than what they have read in books or heard from TV. They are Americans just as you and me. If I were black if someone called me African I would stand proudly and say nope I am American..
And don't fly the flag of your nation in America that is an insult not to mention illegal. The only foreign flags I saw in Germany was at the bases.

Agreed, it was appalling to have the flag-desecration wrought on by illegal immigrants and Mexican Americans to get away with it (I believe) and the bassackawards way of viewing what it means to be an American.

Which is why those who immigrate here to the U.S. and swear that oath of citizenship should leave their countries and culture behind or minimize it enough to say "yes I'm from there but now I'm an American!" and BE American and as American citizens be willing to go and fight in a war that happens to be against their home country, Italian Americans and Japanese Americans did it in WWII, even the children of German immigrants went and killed Germans.

... but this is veering off topic and should be another thread I think.

 

[Gordon Nore]

I don’t think it is a “Black/Brown/Yellow/Red thing it is culture.
When immigrants came to this country they were expected to assimilate to American culture, sure they could stay in the China towns but not much was offered to them because they were not truly part of the American culture.
But now we Americans are expected to assimilate to accommodate the immigrants, Spanish only driving manuals, English as a second language in schools.

What, precisely, is your concern about English as a Second Language?

They came to America for a reason to better themselves and God bless them for it, but they are the ones that need to except that there will be hardships like learning a new language and some of their culture will not be accepted in the United States. I spent a few years overseas mainly in Germany. I did not see an English driving manual, English menu (not even McDonalds) no special provisions were made for me because of my language or culture.

So, perhaps, America is guilty of offering a welcoming hand to newcomers

They don’t want us to be a huge group of likeminded like cultured Americans, that would put the power back where it belongs in the hands of the American people. 99% of the blacks know nothing of the African culture other than what they have read in books or heard from TV.

First, who's "they." Second, is there a problem with people reading about their ancestry?

 

[Deaf Smith]

Africa is a continent, not a country. It's comprised of many different races. When you say "Africa," do you mean that Egyptians hate Sudanese and Nigerians, or that Zulus hate white South Africans?

All the above. And most hate whites..... And most do hate different tribes.

England had a Jewish Prime Minister before the 20th century named Benjamin Disraeli, you can read about him here.

Clearly you don't know much about the Muslims in England. And clearly you don't know much about English colonialism in the 19th century.

There are, in fact, a great many Americans working in China. Additionally, the "native" populace of that very, very large country is composed of a variety of ethnicities that aren't really "Chinese."

And you think these other ethnicities just love each other? Any idea what happened in the Cultural Revolution (1965-75)? What happend to the Han Chinese? Or what happend to Christians under Mao?

Of course, that doesn't make them not racist, any more than the U.S. isn't because of the diversity of our population.

But wait... Eric Holder just said we were!

India? See "China" in reference to diverse population. Sure, their caste system sucks. Jesw in Pakistan? Jews have been in Pakistan for a long, long time, though today most Jews in Pakistan are mistaken for Zorastrians.

Clearly you don't know about all the ethnic bombings.. Muslim .vs. Hindu. Or do you even know WHY Pakistan became Pakistan to begin with... Go read up on it. Oh, just Google it man.

Of course, maybe he knows all of it, but it's hardly relevant, so what do you expect?

I have no doubt Holder was just doing an Obama sound bite. Just like today's 'we love NAFTA' when he was in Canada (but campained against NAFTA while running for president.)

Deaf

 

[jetboatdeath]

What, precisely, is your concern about English as a Second Language?

Other than teaching it in English speaking schools nothing. Go to Mexico and see if they hold a special class to teach you English.You are expected to know the language before you atend class.

So, perhaps, America is guilty of offering a welcoming hand to newcomers

We always have been. But untill recently we have not made special provisions for them.

First, who's "they." Second, is there a problem with people reading about their ancestry?

1st What??
2nd Nothing at all, but thats not the point of my post now is it?

 

[Archangel M]

Theodore Roosevelt on Immigrants and being an AMERICAN


"In the first place we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the man's becoming in very fact an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag, and this excludes the red flag, which symbolizes all wars against liberty and civilization, just as much as it excludes any foreign flag of a nation to which we are hostile...We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."


Theodore Roosevelt 1919

 

[elder999]

All the above. And most hate whites..... And most do hate different tribes.

Most don't "hate" anyone. They're too busy starving.

Clearly you don't know much about the Muslims in England. And clearly you don't know much about English colonialism in the 19th century.

Benjamin Disraeli was Jewish. You said there were no Jewish heads of state in Europe. One thing has nothing to do with another, and the only thing that one can see clearly is that you don't know what you're talking about.

And you think these other ethnicities just love each other? Any idea what happened in the Cultural Revolution (1965-75)? What happend to the Han Chinese? Or what happend to Christians under Mao?

Dont' care. Don't think about it much. Don't see how it's relevant.

But wait... Eric Holder just said we were!

And, in fact, we are.

Clearly you don't know about all the ethnic bombings.. Muslim .vs. Hindu. Or do you even know WHY Pakistan became Pakistan to begin with... Go read up on it. Oh, just Google it man.

Know quite a bit about it. Still don't see how it's relevant. Still doesn't mean that there aren't any Jews in Pakistan. No synagogues since the 80's, of course, but that's not what you said. Once again, the only thing we can see clearly is that you're confused: ethnic terror in Pakistan doesn't negate a history of racism in the U.S.

I have no doubt Holder was just doing an Obama sound bite.

Neither do I. That's his job, after all.:lfao: