Understanding the knife encounter.

[BLACK LION]

from an observational standpoint and even a training and practice one:





I often see references of knife encounters as some sort of deul in which two opposing forces face off in some sort of sanctioned death match...

This is far from actuality and possibly stems from unharnessed fear or misunderstanding or lack of knowledge of a knife attack itself and how a person that wishes to utilize a knife must act in order to be successful....
I belive it also stems from various media and mediums that have subliminally domesticated violence in its entirety to where we actually behave like we see in the movies or video or what have you... It seems many have been inadvertently trained to accept a knife attack exactly how it does NOT happen....

I also see references of knife attacks in which the would be victim attempts to adorn themselves with some sort of deterrent like a briefcase or a jacket or belt etc. in an attempt to prolong the innevitable or somehow prevent it...

Here lies another pitfall that stems from fear or lack of knowledge and understanding as stated above...

Another major reference I have come across is "disarming techniques" in which the would be victim attempts to perform specified techniques in order to strip away the blade and or avoid being stabbed or cut by utilizing various techniques...including but not limited to all out grappling matches with the tool or device...

Here lies another misconception and even though its not a detrimental as the previous two its still on dangerous ground just the same... although I do not believe this particular action or actions stem from fear I do believe they stem from other irrelevant stimuli and the lack of understanding of how one who utilizes a blade attacks...







Its important to me that those who train and practice with and against tools understand the nature of thier use as well as their effects.
A knife for example is most often employed or deployed as a menas of assassination by ambush... hence the term "felt not seen"... rarely if ever will an end user brandish the blade and wave it around like some trinket in some hypnotic ritualistic fashion... they will pull and crash into you wile stabbing perfusely in any spot they can get it into... often times the kill is prolonged by defensive measure that most people being stabbed take... hence the term "defensive wounds"... many times a person is cut or stabbed dozens of times only to have the final few be the fatal ones...
The surprise is overwhelming...even in prison footage this fact remains the same...
Rarely does a knifer step to toe toe with the blade if full view in order to secure thier needs... they will exploit ever opportunity of surprise to their advantage.... they also understand the fear associated with being stabbed and use that as a tool to further thier agenda...

Its important to understand that there are only 2 "safe" places when faced with the blade... 1.far far away from it 2.the attacker rendered nonfunctional.... option one may or may not involve being cut or stabbed while option 2 will involve being cut or stabbed... you may not have to sacrifice any blood or tissue to escape but you will if you agress to protect yourself or others.... there will be blood... regardless

Once again... understanding that there will be blood and cuts is paramount... but killers dont quit and neither should you.

Understanding the use of the knife tool and how to access targets and vitals with it is also paramount... if you become the end user you want to ensure success and it needs to be immediate... understanding what eefects slashes get as opposed to thrusting the blade into a vital... what makes more blood...what makes less... and so on...

Most often people in training do not realize that if you attack correctly by utilizing the proper principles the knife itself becomes inert... most "disarms" come not by technique but after injuries are affectuated and the knife is dislodged from impact or trauma or inability to use it from nonfunctioning parts....
Most often people in trainin do not realize that attacking the tool itself wont stop the job from getting done...
stop the living breathing thinking being behind the device and the threat ceases to exist... there is no deuling or fancy techniques that get this done... just sheer agressive or egressive precision and decisive execution on the real targets and thats the operationg system of the machine(s) you are up against...not thier extensions

 

[GBlues]

from an observational standpoint and even a training and practice one:





I often see references of knife encounters as some sort of deul in which two opposing forces face off in some sort of sanctioned death match...

This is far from actuality and possibly stems from unharnessed fear or misunderstanding or lack of knowledge of a knife attack itself and how a person that wishes to utilize a knife must act in order to be successful....
I belive it also stems from various media and mediums that have subliminally domesticated violence in its entirety to where we actually behave like we see in the movies or video or what have you... It seems many have been inadvertently trained to accept a knife attack exactly how it does NOT happen....

I also see references of knife attacks in which the would be victim attempts to adorn themselves with some sort of deterrent like a briefcase or a jacket or belt etc. in an attempt to prolong the innevitable or somehow prevent it...

Here lies another pitfall that stems from fear or lack of knowledge and understanding as stated above...

Another major reference I have come across is "disarming techniques" in which the would be victim attempts to perform specified techniques in order to strip away the blade and or avoid being stabbed or cut by utilizing various techniques...including but not limited to all out grappling matches with the tool or device...

Here lies another misconception and even though its not a detrimental as the previous two its still on dangerous ground just the same... although I do not believe this particular action or actions stem from fear I do believe they stem from other irrelevant stimuli and the lack of understanding of how one who utilizes a blade attacks...







Its important to me that those who train and practice with and against tools understand the nature of thier use as well as their effects.
A knife for example is most often employed or deployed as a menas of assassination by ambush... hence the term "felt not seen"... rarely if ever will an end user brandish the blade and wave it around like some trinket in some hypnotic ritualistic fashion... they will pull and crash into you wile stabbing perfusely in any spot they can get it into... often times the kill is prolonged by defensive measure that most people being stabbed take... hence the term "defensive wounds"... many times a person is cut or stabbed dozens of times only to have the final few be the fatal ones...
The surprise is overwhelming...even in prison footage this fact remains the same...
Rarely does a knifer step to toe toe with the blade if full view in order to secure thier needs... they will exploit ever opportunity of surprise to their advantage.... they also understand the fear associated with being stabbed and use that as a tool to further thier agenda...

Its important to understand that there are only 2 "safe" places when faced with the blade... 1.far far away from it 2.the attacker rendered nonfunctional.... option one may or may not involve being cut or stabbed while option 2 will involve being cut or stabbed... you may not have to sacrifice any blood or tissue to escape but you will if you agress to protect yourself or others.... there will be blood... regardless

Once again... understanding that there will be blood and cuts is paramount... but killers dont quit and neither should you.

Understanding the use of the knife tool and how to access targets and vitals with it is also paramount... if you become the end user you want to ensure success and it needs to be immediate... understanding what eefects slashes get as opposed to thrusting the blade into a vital... what makes more blood...what makes less... and so on...

Most often people in training do not realize that if you attack correctly by utilizing the proper principles the knife itself becomes inert... most "disarms" come not by technique but after injuries are affectuated and the knife is dislodged from impact or trauma or inability to use it from nonfunctioning parts....
Most often people in trainin do not realize that attacking the tool itself wont stop the job from getting done...
stop the living breathing thinking being behind the device and the threat ceases to exist... there is no deuling or fancy techniques that get this done... just sheer agressive or egressive precision and decisive execution on the real targets and thats the operationg system of the machine(s) you are up against...not thier extensions

I think that you've got the right idea. I do believe like you that there is too much made out of the dueling. I think if you want to learn or study realistic knife defenses you have to study the people that are the best at it. That would be the criminals in our prisons. Most of them have never studied or had any training at all, yet they seem to be the best at performing violence. Especially when it comes to knife fighting. I think your idea about hitting specific targets, is very important. Because if you don't, you don't get injuries and then you don't end the confrontation. To take it one step further, people who think that targeting is bunk or b.s. Look at the Aryan Brotherhood in the prisons. Targeting is so important, that they now make it mandatory that all of the members study human anatomy. Why? Because they have found that when they want to kill somebody they only have so much time, and in reality people have been stabbed multiple tens of times and not died. Why? Because no vital target was hit. So the Aryan Brotherhood realizing this decided that, "Hey, if I can kill a guy in 3 stabs instead of say 50 then I have time to get rid of the weapon, and I killed the guy before the guards can stop me." Mission accomplished. Targeting is so important. More than people realize. It's often said that "The same techniques you do empty handed can be done with a weapon." WHile this is true to a point, it's not true also. Because if your not stabbing vital targets, if your not puncturing vital organs, your not getting the job done. Your making a mess for yourself because your giving this attacker time to put an injury on you. Conversely when empty handed if your not targeting vital organs on the human body, your again giving this guy with a knife time to put an injury on you, perhaps a life ending one. You can get the same results targeting with no weapon as you can with a weapon. If bare handed you go for targets above and beyond anything else, why wouldn't you when the guy has a knife? It's even more important. The reality of a knife fight, is that your not dueling, as a matter of fact here's a link to what a knife fight most commonly looks like.....

Now understand these guys are martial artists. There is actually more to this video than the 10 secs shown. But, that is how a knife attack looks. IT's brutal, it's viscious, and all the dueling and bouncing around in the world isn't going to help you. Getting injuries will though. By the way this is just a training session nobody was harmed during the filming of this video. LOL!

One last point if you read the description to the right of the video. Who did you identify with? THe guy being stabbed or the guy doing the stabbing? Did you see it as a failure on the stabbies part, or a successful use of the tool of violence by the guy doing the stabbing? It is important because it will make you think in a little different manner. Think about it.

 

[MA-Caver]

Most often people in training do not realize that if you attack correctly by utilizing the proper principles the knife itself becomes inert... most "disarms" come not by technique but after injuries are effectuated and the knife is dislodged from impact or trauma or inability to use it from non functioning parts....
Most often people in training do not realize that attacking the tool itself wont stop the job from getting done...
stop the living breathing thinking being behind the device and the threat ceases to exist... there is no dueling or fancy techniques that get this done... just sheer aggressive or regressive precision and decisive execution on the real targets and that's the operating system of the machine(s) you are up against...not their extensions

I would have to agree with the statement that the knife is about as dangerous as a gun when it's not being held by someone... anyone. Sitting on a table it won't harm anyone unless it's picked up and used.
Yet definitely getting the job done means incapacitating the user and not the tool. Still you have to do something to prevent the tool from being used against you.

You spoke about how dueling is not how knife fights go. You are mostly correct... but they do happen, I've been in one such event... got a thin white scar on my right arm to show for it. But I agree the classic "West Side Story" knife dueling is more cinematic mythology than real life. Now a days if I'm going to employ my blade I'm going to keep it well hidden/out of sight best as I can throughout. You cannot defend against what you cannot see.

I think that you've got the right idea. I do believe like you that there is too much made out of the dueling. I think if you want to learn or study realistic knife defenses you have to study the people that are the best at it. That would be the criminals in our prisons. Most of them have never studied or had any training at all, yet they seem to be the best at performing violence.

I'll have to disagree with the term "best at it" when describing the average prisoner ... Just because it's common place to use a shiv (not a real blade) in prison doesn't make a fighter out of them. As mentioned it's more of an opportunistic assassin's weapon, a quick thrust (or three) in a hoped for vital area and move on before the guards can pinpoint who did it.
The military has units which train with bladed weaponry, particularly knives and bayonets, but not exclusively. Special forces units (Berets, Seals, Rangers, et al) would be these units for their occasional need for stealth and surprise attacks.

Especially when it comes to knife fighting. I think your idea about hitting specific targets, is very important. Because if you don't, you don't get injuries and then you don't end the confrontation. To take it one step further, people who think that targeting is bunk or b.s. Look at the Aryan Brotherhood in the prisons. Targeting is so important, that they now make it mandatory that all of the members study human anatomy. Why? Because they have found that when they want to kill somebody they only have so much time, and in reality people have been stabbed multiple tens of times and not died. Why? Because no vital target was hit. So the Aryan Brotherhood realizing this decided that, "Hey, if I can kill a guy in 3 stabs instead of say 50 then I have time to get rid of the weapon, and I killed the guy before the guards can stop me." Mission accomplished. Targeting is so important. More than people realize. It's often said that "The same techniques you do empty handed can be done with a weapon." While this is true to a point, it's not true also. Because if your not stabbing vital targets, if your not puncturing vital organs, your not getting the job done. Your making a mess for yourself because your giving this attacker time to put an injury on you. Conversely when empty handed if your not targeting vital organs on the human body, your again giving this guy with a knife time to put an injury on you, perhaps a life ending one. You can get the same results targeting with no weapon as you can with a weapon. If bare handed you go for targets above and beyond anything else, why wouldn't you when the guy has a knife? It's even more important. The reality of a knife fight, is that your not dueling, as a matter of fact here's a link to what a knife fight most commonly looks like.....

Now understand these guys are martial artists. There is actually more to this video than the 10 secs shown. But, that is how a knife attack looks. IT's brutal, it's vicious, and all the dueling and bouncing around in the world isn't going to help you. Getting injuries will though. By the way this is just a training session nobody was harmed during the filming of this video. LOL!

One last point if you read the description to the right of the video. Who did you identify with? The guy being stabbed or the guy doing the stabbing? Did you see it as a failure on the stabbies part, or a successful use of the tool of violence by the guy doing the stabbing? It is important because it will make you think in a little different manner. Think about it.

I identified with both, the stabbed and the stabber. I've been fortunate, nay... blessed to come out of both incidents alive.
Being stabbed is a unique feeling, it's like being punched in the gut but a much more focused and sharper pain (literally) at first, almost like a quick twinge of muscle spasm then nothing. It's later when it hurts like hell.
Perhaps it's also shock that numbs the system and dulls the pain. Being stabbed multiple times... I haven't had that and don't ever want it. Especially as in that (excellent) video you linked us to. Sheesh, might as well write it all off because there's no defense against that... especially after the first two or three thrusts into your body.
Again hollywood tends to over (or even under) exaggerates the effects of a blade attack on the body. The mind has difficulty wrapping itself around the event. I would think even the most prepared individual will not react as trained to do once that blade enters and exits the body.

Good stuff fellas, thanks.

 

[MJS]

from an observational standpoint and even a training and practice one:





I often see references of knife encounters as some sort of deul in which two opposing forces face off in some sort of sanctioned death match...

This is far from actuality and possibly stems from unharnessed fear or misunderstanding or lack of knowledge of a knife attack itself and how a person that wishes to utilize a knife must act in order to be successful....
I belive it also stems from various media and mediums that have subliminally domesticated violence in its entirety to where we actually behave like we see in the movies or video or what have you... It seems many have been inadvertently trained to accept a knife attack exactly how it does NOT happen....

I also see references of knife attacks in which the would be victim attempts to adorn themselves with some sort of deterrent like a briefcase or a jacket or belt etc. in an attempt to prolong the innevitable or somehow prevent it...

Here lies another pitfall that stems from fear or lack of knowledge and understanding as stated above...

Another major reference I have come across is "disarming techniques" in which the would be victim attempts to perform specified techniques in order to strip away the blade and or avoid being stabbed or cut by utilizing various techniques...including but not limited to all out grappling matches with the tool or device...

Here lies another misconception and even though its not a detrimental as the previous two its still on dangerous ground just the same... although I do not believe this particular action or actions stem from fear I do believe they stem from other irrelevant stimuli and the lack of understanding of how one who utilizes a blade attacks...







Its important to me that those who train and practice with and against tools understand the nature of thier use as well as their effects.
A knife for example is most often employed or deployed as a menas of assassination by ambush... hence the term "felt not seen"... rarely if ever will an end user brandish the blade and wave it around like some trinket in some hypnotic ritualistic fashion... they will pull and crash into you wile stabbing perfusely in any spot they can get it into... often times the kill is prolonged by defensive measure that most people being stabbed take... hence the term "defensive wounds"... many times a person is cut or stabbed dozens of times only to have the final few be the fatal ones...
The surprise is overwhelming...even in prison footage this fact remains the same...
Rarely does a knifer step to toe toe with the blade if full view in order to secure thier needs... they will exploit ever opportunity of surprise to their advantage.... they also understand the fear associated with being stabbed and use that as a tool to further thier agenda...

Its important to understand that there are only 2 "safe" places when faced with the blade... 1.far far away from it 2.the attacker rendered nonfunctional.... option one may or may not involve being cut or stabbed while option 2 will involve being cut or stabbed... you may not have to sacrifice any blood or tissue to escape but you will if you agress to protect yourself or others.... there will be blood... regardless

Once again... understanding that there will be blood and cuts is paramount... but killers dont quit and neither should you.

Understanding the use of the knife tool and how to access targets and vitals with it is also paramount... if you become the end user you want to ensure success and it needs to be immediate... understanding what eefects slashes get as opposed to thrusting the blade into a vital... what makes more blood...what makes less... and so on...

Most often people in training do not realize that if you attack correctly by utilizing the proper principles the knife itself becomes inert... most "disarms" come not by technique but after injuries are affectuated and the knife is dislodged from impact or trauma or inability to use it from nonfunctioning parts....
Most often people in trainin do not realize that attacking the tool itself wont stop the job from getting done...
stop the living breathing thinking being behind the device and the threat ceases to exist... there is no deuling or fancy techniques that get this done... just sheer agressive or egressive precision and decisive execution on the real targets and thats the operationg system of the machine(s) you are up against...not thier extensions

I agree with the majority of this. To touch on a few points that you bring up....yes, I've felt for a long time, that if you're going to have any success defending against a weapon, you need to understand how the weapon can be used. I had my eyes opened after training in the FMAs, and while the BG we face may not be a Filipino knife master, the training has provided me with many ways the blade can be used.

The same can be applied to a gun, or grappling. You need to know how things function, to better your chances of survival.

As far as techniques go.....I put them in the same category as my empty hand techs......use the set techs. to build a base from, to gain the concepts and principles, and from there, adapt to whats presented to you at the moment. I'm probably not going to pull off a set tech., but again, I will use the ideas from them.

I also agree with the way the attack happens. Now, someone using a blade in an attempted mugging will probably wave it around in a threatening fashion for intimidation or press it up against you, vs. what we'd see in a prison yard, where the attack is fast and relentless.

This past Wed., I was doing some blade work during a private session. The majority of the time, I was close enough to throw a strike to the eyes, face, etc., so I'd do that, and then work for the control. Of course, nothing says that you have to stick around. Once you throw a strike, that may buy you enough time to get the hell out of the area. If you do stay, and work for control of the weapon, the punishing shots should still be coming. Just because I have control, doesnt mean that I won't stop punishing the person.

Of course, one other thing that, IMO, is often overlooked, is the other hand of the BG. So its important to keep in mind, that while we're doing whatever it is we're doing, he could be striking us with his free hand.

 

[MJS]

I think if you want to learn or study realistic knife defenses you have to study the people that are the best at it. That would be the criminals in our prisons. Most of them have never studied or had any training at all, yet they seem to be the best at performing violence.

Good points, however I don't think I'd go so far as to say they're better skilled, but instead, that they're more conditioned to dish out violence. Given the environment that they live in, they're most likely not going to think twice about doing anything violent. I say this in comparison to the average Joe, because the thought of doing anything violent, has a tendancy to gross some people out.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Definitely good points made by all!

I think one of the most important things to remember is to not talk, think or act in absolutes. What does this mean? If you deal in absolutes you are shutting your mind off to other possibilities. Those possibilities may come to happen and walla you may freeze. This is why like MJS above I feel you need to be well rounded and have a very good idea of how to use a knife or any tool you may encounter. The knowledge of how to use it and it's properties may then help you in defending yourself should you be caught in a disadvantageous position by a person using one. Bottom line if you think an attack may happen a certain way and that is the only way you train Murphy's Law will probably bite you and give you a different scenario. So do not think in absolutes but insteadin your training explore the possibilities!

 

[GBlues]

I would have to agree with the statement that the knife is about as dangerous as a gun when it's not being held by someone... anyone. Sitting on a table it won't harm anyone unless it's picked up and used.
Yet definitely getting the job done means incapacitating the user and not the tool. Still you have to do something to prevent the tool from being used against you.

You spoke about how dueling is not how knife fights go. You are mostly correct... but they do happen, I've been in one such event... got a thin white scar on my right arm to show for it. But I agree the classic "West Side Story" knife dueling is more cinematic mythology than real life. Now a days if I'm going to employ my blade I'm going to keep it well hidden/out of sight best as I can throughout. You cannot defend against what you cannot see.

I'll have to disagree with the term "best at it" when describing the average prisoner ... Just because it's common place to use a shiv (not a real blade) in prison doesn't make a fighter out of them. As mentioned it's more of an opportunistic assassin's weapon, a quick thrust (or three) in a hoped for vital area and move on before the guards can pinpoint who did it.
The military has units which train with bladed weaponry, particularly knives and bayonets, but not exclusively. Special forces units (Berets, Seals, Rangers, et al) would be these units for their occasional need for stealth and surprise attacks.


I identified with both, the stabbed and the stabber. I've been fortunate, nay... blessed to come out of both incidents alive.
Being stabbed is a unique feeling, it's like being punched in the gut but a much more focused and sharper pain (literally) at first, almost like a quick twinge of muscle spasm then nothing. It's later when it hurts like hell.
Perhaps it's also shock that numbs the system and dulls the pain. Being stabbed multiple times... I haven't had that and don't ever want it. Especially as in that (excellent) video you linked us to. Sheesh, might as well write it all off because there's no defense against that... especially after the first two or three thrusts into your body.
Again hollywood tends to over (or even under) exaggerates the effects of a blade attack on the body. The mind has difficulty wrapping itself around the event. I would think even the most prepared individual will not react as trained to do once that blade enters and exits the body.

Good stuff fellas, thanks.

I just wanted to clarify something real quick. I guess it's not that prisoners are the best at "it", however they are the most successful at using the tool of violence. Those are the kinds of guys that Black Lion is talking about going up against. The A-Social individual who just plain doesn't care whether you live or die, and in all probability in a violent situation is doing everything in his power to kill you. As far as there being no defense against that. Well, that short video is not the end of that segment, they do show you how they recommend that you deal with it. Let me see if I can find it. No I can't find the other half of that video, but the basic premise is hit the guy, and get an injury. That stops that attack. As far as the dueling part of it goes. Yeah duel type situations do happen, very rarely though. I think that they are in the minority. I was 19 when I had to defend against a knife for the first time. It was a duel type, except I didn't have a knife, so, not really a duel. But anyway, I think they happen more like what Torin demonstrated on a whole, than the dueling. I think that training to duel gives a sense of preparedness, a sense of that we know what were doing. It's not about seeing how good the other guy is, it's about stopping him, and not giving him a chance to show you how good he is. If you duel you give him that chance.

 

[BLACK LION]

for me...these are the conceivable possibilities... this works for firearms and blunt object as well.... aside from being sniped from long range.

"stand off" or "face off".... in which the threat is cocked and ready to engage face to face.

"assassination".... in which the victim is ambushed with a level of skill and expertise wether it be by distraction or what have you. A specific target is marked for quick and easy removal. Sentry removal and other combat apps apply here. This is basically a skilled execution of the target by means of surprise or ambush.

"brandishing".... in which a knife is pulled and brandished in order to gain copitulation ur some sort of control.

"hold up" or "hostage" in which a knife is put to the throat or back or whatever by the threat in order to gain control...

"draw" or "reach"... in which the threat is reaching for something or attempting to draw or pull something.

I put more emphasis on worst case actuality because here lies to most iminent danger... I believe its easier to work your way down to the lesser threatening or "I wish he would" scenarios rather than up. an ambush or assassination is worst case becuase of the element of surprise... the others at least afford a visual reference to what thier intent is as well as afford more time....



good job guys




most end users with some level of skill and understanding would most likely approach it from an ambush or assassination standpoint.... I know I do.

 

[zDom]

I identified with both, the stabbed and the stabber. I've been fortunate, nay... blessed to come out of both incidents alive.
Being stabbed is a unique feeling, it's like being punched in the gut but a much more focused and sharper pain (literally) at first, almost like a quick twinge of muscle spasm then nothing. It's later when it hurts like hell.
Perhaps it's also shock that numbs the system and dulls the pain. Being stabbed multiple times... I haven't had that and don't ever want it. Especially as in that (excellent) video you linked us to. Sheesh, might as well write it all off because there's no defense against that... especially after the first two or three thrusts into your body.
Again hollywood tends to over (or even under) exaggerates the effects of a blade attack on the body. The mind has difficulty wrapping itself around the event. I would think even the most prepared individual will not react as trained to do once that blade enters and exits the body.

Great info and followup comments.

I got stabbed in the chest when I was 16.

It started with the guy waving it around demanding my money (that he already HAD in his POCKET! — I had given it to him for a purchase ...)

then he "put it away" (actually he just didn't.. he pretended to, then put his hands under his T-shirt, one of which was still holding the knife)

The stab felt pretty much as Caver described it: like a punch in the chest. I wasn't even sure I had been stabbed until about 5 minutes later when I went into a donut shop and pulled up my shirt.

But later: yep, hurt like HELL. Started when the hospital staff began sticking huge iodined Q-tips in the wound and kept ramping up from there

While prisoner-type attacks and trained knife attacks may be the most dangerous types and should be prepared for (worst case scenarios!)

"Train for the worst, hope for something less than that."

I think other types of attacks may really be more likely — for example, a Significant Other going bezerk and coming at you with the Psycho Icepick attack; or a wanna-be thug menacing with a knife (which, in retrospect, was what I encountered).

Even the most rudimentary training for knife attacks is going to help you SOME in these.

(I'd be interested in seeing statistics on the types of knife attacks...)

I think the most important things to remember are, in this order:

1) GET the knife/knife hand under control. Yea, he might be punching, pinching or scratching with the OTHER hand, but whatever he is doing with that other hand is almost certainly not as bad as wounds from the knife hand.

2) Having achieved Objective 1, DISABLE the knife's operator for the reasons stated above in this thread.

(note: DON'T give up on these two objectives, even if you take multiple cuts and/or stab wounds. This may be one of the most critical things to remember.)

3) IMMEDIATELY seek medical attention and law enforcement. You may not even realize you've been wounded, so get checked out, ASAP.


Agree? Disagree? Additions?



As for identifying with the STABBER, while I wouldn't hestitate to use a firearm in self defense if the situation called for it, I don't know that I would EVER use a knife: empty hand techniques I am familiar with, I would think, should have as much stopping power as anything I could do with a short blade, as I have no real training with a blade.

And STOPPING the aggressor should always be the goal (for me, at least). I don't see myself in any situation where my goal is killing someone.

Compelled to act with the intention of lethal force and not having a firearm available (say, a zombie attack for instance and out of bullets ...) I think I would go for LONGER blunt or bladed weapons: bokken, machete, escrima sticks.

YMMV...

 

[GBlues]

Great info and followup comments.

I got stabbed in the chest when I was 16.

It started with the guy waving it around demanding my money (that he already HAD in his POCKET! — I had given it to him for a purchase ...)

then he "put it away" (actually he just didn't.. he pretended to, then put his hands under his T-shirt, one of which was still holding the knife)

The stab felt pretty much as Caver described it: like a punch in the chest. I wasn't even sure I had been stabbed until about 5 minutes later when I went into a donut shop and pulled up my shirt.

But later: yep, hurt like HELL. Started when the hospital staff began sticking huge iodined Q-tips in the wound and kept ramping up from there

While prisoner-type attacks and trained knife attacks may be the most dangerous types and should be prepared for (worst case scenarios!)

"Train for the worst, hope for something less than that."

I think other types of attacks may really be more likely — for example, a Significant Other going bezerk and coming at you with the Psycho Icepick attack; or a wanna-be thug menacing with a knife (which, in retrospect, was what I encountered).

Even the most rudimentary training for knife attacks is going to help you SOME in these.

(I'd be interested in seeing statistics on the types of knife attacks...)

I think the most important things to remember are, in this order:

1) GET the knife/knife hand under control. Yea, he might be punching, pinching or scratching with the OTHER hand, but whatever he is doing with that other hand is almost certainly not as bad as wounds from the knife hand.

2) Having achieved Objective 1, DISABLE the knife's operator for the reasons stated above in this thread.

(note: DON'T give up on these two objectives, even if you take multiple cuts and/or stab wounds. This may be one of the most critical things to remember.)

3) IMMEDIATELY seek medical attention and law enforcement. You may not even realize you've been wounded, so get checked out, ASAP.


Agree? Disagree? Additions?



As for identifying with the STABBER, while I wouldn't hestitate to use a firearm in self defense if the situation called for it, I don't know that I would EVER use a knife: empty hand techniques I am familiar with, I would think, should have as much stopping power as anything I could do with a short blade, as I have no real training with a blade.

And STOPPING the aggressor should always be the goal (for me, at least). I don't see myself in any situation where my goal is killing someone.

Compelled to act with the intention of lethal force and not having a firearm available (say, a zombie attack for instance and out of bullets ...) I think I would go for LONGER blunt or bladed weapons: bokken, machete, escrima sticks.

YMMV...

I would disagree with you on your number 1. I don't think it's important to grab the knife hand. Most people can't and won't grab the knife hand. I think your main focus should be to turn the brain off. If you turn his brain off you accomplish all of your objectives and do so at once. 1) he is no longer a knife wielding attacker. and 2) he is no longer a threat.

Just go for an injury. Get it, and everything changes in your favor. You know, a knife is an inanimate object, it can not hurt you by itself. A gentleman that I respect a great deal said, " It doesn't matter whether it's a knife or a gun, everything changes the second you do something. You get in there you get an injury and you keep piling on injuries. Until your attacker is in a non-fuctional state." The only weapon we need to concern ourselves with attacking is the human brain. WIthout it, no more attack can be forth coming.

 

[zDom]

I would disagree with you on your number 1. I don't think it's important to grab the knife hand. Most people can't and won't grab the knife hand. I think your main focus should be to turn the brain off. If you turn his brain off you accomplish all of your objectives and do so at once. 1) he is no longer a knife wielding attacker. and 2) he is no longer a threat.

Just go for an injury. Get it, and everything changes in your favor. You know, a knife is an inanimate object, it can not hurt you by itself. A gentleman that I respect a great deal said, " It doesn't matter whether it's a knife or a gun, everything changes the second you do something. You get in there you get an injury and you keep piling on injuries. Until your attacker is in a non-fuctional state." The only weapon we need to concern ourselves with attacking is the human brain. WIthout it, no more attack can be forth coming.

And I disagree with you. There is no magic switch you can just reach out, push and "turn the brain off."

While you are poking around trying to find that switch, he (or she) is stabbing you.

However good you are (or THINK you are), there is NO technique that you can execute that gaurentees they won't continue stabbing you. You can list them off — throat strike, eye gouge, temple strike, etc. etc. etc.

I've seen folk shrug them ALL off and continue to fight. Continuing to fight with a knife in hand while you attempt to "shut off the brain" means you are getting stabbed and cut again.. and again.. and again.

I stand by my assertation that No. 1 goal of getting the knife/knife hand under control.

This doesn't mean that I won't take a strike FIRST (especially if they are holding knife back and there is an opportunity), it just means the the TOP priority is to make sure you are not getting repeatedly stabbed and cut.

Top priority doesn't dictate that I will act exclusively toward grabbing the knife hand. But given an opportunity to control that hand or deliver some technique I HOPE will be disabling? I'll take the knife/knife hand, thanks.

Some people just will NOT "turn off" no matter what you do. I've seen some people who have NEVER been knocked unconcious (OK, truth is I AM that person);

and if close enough, being blind doesn't mean that can't stab you...

and how many times can they stab you before losing unconciousness even if their trachea IS crushed?

No, a knife can't hurt you by itself. That is one reason I want the knife OUT of the attacker's hand.

I wish you the best of luck with your "shut off the brain" theory. I hope you never have to put it into practice and if you do, I hope it works out well for you.

I won't

 

[GBlues]

And I disagree with you. There is no magic switch you can just reach out, push and "turn the brain off."

While you are poking around trying to find that switch, he (or she) is stabbing you.

However good you are (or THINK you are), there is NO technique that you can execute that gaurentees they won't continue stabbing you. You can list them off — throat strike, eye gouge, temple strike, etc. etc. etc.

I've seen folk shrug them ALL off and continue to fight. Continuing to fight with a knife in hand while you attempt to "shut off the brain" means you are getting stabbed and cut again.. and again.. and again.

I stand by my assertation that No. 1 goal of getting the knife/knife hand under control.

This doesn't mean that I won't take a strike FIRST (especially if they are holding knife back and there is an opportunity), it just means the the TOP priority is to make sure you are not getting repeatedly stabbed and cut.

Top priority doesn't dictate that I will act exclusively toward grabbing the knife hand. But given an opportunity to control that hand or deliver some technique I HOPE will be disabling? I'll take the knife/knife hand, thanks.

Some people just will NOT "turn off" no matter what you do. I've seen some people who have NEVER been knocked unconcious (OK, truth is I AM that person);

and if close enough, being blind doesn't mean that can't stab you...

and how many times can they stab you before losing unconciousness even if their trachea IS crushed?

No, a knife can't hurt you by itself. That is one reason I want the knife OUT of the attacker's hand.

I wish you the best of luck with your "shut off the brain" theory. I hope you never have to put it into practice and if you do, I hope it works out well for you.

I won't

I had a very long response to your post and I've just decided to answer it this way. Your very luck you've never been knocked out. You obviously haven't met the man that could do it yet. I applaud you for superior toughness and resilience. While you must protect yourself however you feel is appropriate. I personally feel that the safest way to end the threat of the knife, is to end the real threat which is the person weilding the knife. That being said, I feel that it absolutely will work if and when I ever need it too.

 

[Thems Fighting Words]

I would disagree with you on your number 1. I don't think it's important to grab the knife hand. Most people can't and won't grab the knife hand. I think your main focus should be to turn the brain off. If you turn his brain off you accomplish all of your objectives and do so at once. 1) he is no longer a knife wielding attacker. and 2) he is no longer a threat.

Controlling the live hand doesn't require you grab that hand. Other tactics for control include positioning yourself on the opposite side (such as Silat might do) or sinking the opponent's body down (such as Kung Fu might do). In both instances you are controlling the live hand by using the opponent's own body as a shield. Note that it is still considered primarily a live hand control tactic because the focus is to keep the live hand from being able to attack you.

 

[MJS]

IMHO, I think some sort of control, either by physically grabbing or as TFW said, using positioning, is very important. For myself, and I've said this before, but I'm not a member of the 1 shot/1 kill club. Sure, it has happened, but I'm not going to put all my money on that. As it was said, while I'm trying to counter strike, the other person will most likely be trying to cut me. Now yes, we will most likely get cut, however, I want to minimize as much damage to myself as possible, and not controlling the weapon arm is not going to help me avoid those potential cuts.

I'm at work right now, so I can post them, but if you go to youtube and watch the Die Less Often clips by the Dog Bros, we will see them putting an emphasis on control. Given their weapon background, I think I'll take their advice.

 

[MJS]

I had a very long response to your post and I've just decided to answer it this way. Your very luck you've never been knocked out. You obviously haven't met the man that could do it yet. I applaud you for superior toughness and resilience. While you must protect yourself however you feel is appropriate. I personally feel that the safest way to end the threat of the knife, is to end the real threat which is the person weilding the knife. That being said, I feel that it absolutely will work if and when I ever need it too.

While I see your point, I still feel that control is very important. Nothing says that you can't strike the person while you're controlling. I was working this, this past Wed night and I didn't have any issues.

 

[GBlues]

IMHO, I think some sort of control, either by physically grabbing or as TFW said, using positioning, is very important. For myself, and I've said this before, but I'm not a member of the 1 shot/1 kill club. Sure, it has happened, but I'm not going to put all my money on that. As it was said, while I'm trying to counter strike, the other person will most likely be trying to cut me. Now yes, we will most likely get cut, however, I want to minimize as much damage to myself as possible, and not controlling the weapon arm is not going to help me avoid those potential cuts.

I'm at work right now, so I can post them, but if you go to youtube and watch the Die Less Often clips by the Dog Bros, we will see them putting an emphasis on control. Given their weapon background, I think I'll take their advice.

Just got done checking out there videos. And I have to say the very end proves my point.

THe two guys at 6:34 are practicing and the guy in the blue catches the guy in black "wrong" or "right" depending on your point of view. Got the injury, and yes it's an injury. Knocks the guy down, and he's not getting up real fast, he's laying there, like a mini electrocal knock out. Now in real life if you started to pile on the injuries....... targeted injuries. Notice he isn't continuing to try and stab the guy in blue, he is momentarily helpless. That's what I'm talking about.

 

[redantstyle]

i figure nobody can really resist skeletal deformation. take their body out of line and they cant do anything. without the base for the muscles to leverage the body, you get no power.

ime, which is not all that magnificent or anything, you are striving to take up a position, with a safeguard or two, whilst striking and sticking to effect some type of twist-prefixed* takedown.

we train the woodpecker/shank/ambush style with the stipulation he gets only one swing. as long as you stop him, that is.

that makes it real tough, but i believe in training worst case scenario.

not to devalue anyone's training, but i was taught to pre-empt, or counter strike on an angle. no sinwalli, hubud lubub, or other drill patterns. just hit and dont stop hitting while you take him off his feet one way or another.

as far as 'shutting down brains' goes, no PP is guaranteed. doubtless they can and do work, but i would be looking more along the lines of skeletal destruction, takedowns, and momentum combing techniques. there are alot of target areas that can put someone out like a light, or even net a standing k.o. aka 'altered state'.

i must say, all this is nice, but in general, if you are confronted with a knife, it is best to use Run Fu, or perhaps even Nike Do.

i've found that the technique "Pilgrim Threatens Swordsman with Brick" is effective against 'brandishers'.

Somehow, it drains their chi.

regards.


*alot of times this would be the neck, or spine, or whatever you can get to twist. hmmm....i guess 'breaking the waist' is generally what i am getting at.

 

[MJS]

Just got done checking out there videos. And I have to say the very end proves my point.

THe two guys at 6:34 are practicing and the guy in the blue catches the guy in black "wrong" or "right" depending on your point of view. Got the injury, and yes it's an injury. Knocks the guy down, and he's not getting up real fast, he's laying there, like a mini electrocal knock out. Now in real life if you started to pile on the injuries....... targeted injuries. Notice he isn't continuing to try and stab the guy in blue, he is momentarily helpless. That's what I'm talking about.

And I chalk that up to what I said in my earlier post....getting lucky and taking your chance with the lucky one shot. Of course, how much damage did the guy in the blue take prior to all that? For me, it was hard to see, due to the fact that blacks back was to the camera.

I'm not saying that it can't happen, as we saw in the clip, but we also saw control, some puninshing shots, and slamming the person down, into the wall, etc.

In the end, whatever works.

 

[GBlues]

i figure nobody can really resist skeletal deformation. take their body out of line and they cant do anything. without the base for the muscles to leverage the body, you get no power.

ime, which is not all that magnificent or anything, you are striving to take up a position, with a safeguard or two, whilst striking and sticking to effect some type of twist-prefixed* takedown.

we train the woodpecker/shank/ambush style with the stipulation he gets only one swing. as long as you stop him, that is.

that makes it real tough, but i believe in training worst case scenario.

not to devalue anyone's training, but i was taught to pre-empt, or counter strike on an angle. no sinwalli, hubud lubub, or other drill patterns. just hit and dont stop hitting while you take him off his feet one way or another.

as far as 'shutting down brains' goes, no PP is guaranteed. doubtless they can and do work, but i would be looking more along the lines of skeletal destruction, takedowns, and momentum combing techniques. there are alot of target areas that can put someone out like a light, or even net a standing k.o. aka 'altered state'.

i must say, all this is nice, but in general, if you are confronted with a knife, it is best to use Run Fu, or perhaps even Nike Do.

i've found that the technique "Pilgrim Threatens Swordsman with Brick" is effective against 'brandishers'.

Somehow, it drains their chi.

regards.


*alot of times this would be the neck, or spine, or whatever you can get to twist. hmmm....i guess 'breaking the waist' is generally what i am getting at.

Yeah I like nike-do, it is real effective. I prefer it to being stabbed, or cut. LOL! I've also heard of an art called Ju do know, Ju do know I gotta knife, Ju do know I gun. LOL!

 

[GBlues]

And I chalk that up to what I said in my earlier post....getting lucky and taking your chance with the lucky one shot. Of course, how much damage did the guy in the blue take prior to all that? For me, it was hard to see, due to the fact that blacks back was to the camera.

I'm not saying that it can't happen, as we saw in the clip, but we also saw control, some puninshing shots, and slamming the person down, into the wall, etc.

In the end, whatever works.

YOur absolutely correct. The bottom line is that it is whatever works. In reality if you grab the knife hand, and take the guy down or break his arm, or go for injuries and break the guys arm, I guess in the final analysis if it gets the job done, and you get to go home safe, it's the best in the world. At least for you, cause you got to go home, and the other guy got to go for a ride.