Knife Dueling

[Sifu Barry Cuda]

Hey everybody, can someone explain what is knife dueling and why is it so bad? I saw someone say that most knife arts are dueling and that it is bad.It was also mentioned that prison knife fighting is more effective.I worked in a prison long enough to see people die from stab wounds and I can tell you prison knife fighting is not self defense based or is it something that a civillian will ever experience.One person distracts you and another stabs you in the kidneys from behind.This is a fact, I have seen it many times.On the other hand in the street mostley my experiences in NYC,someone will pull out a knife at around 4 feet from you and either demand money or threaten to cut you for looking at their girl ect.If you have a knife you have to pull it out quickley while the person either backs up or rushes in.This will resemble classroom knife sparring to a degree which I assume is considered dueling.If you are not sneeking up on someone to slit their throat, isnt any confrontation when you are face to face with a knife on knife situation a duel? Barry www.combatartsusa.com

 

[Tgace]

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/statisticalchances.htm#knifefighter

 

[Cruentus]

Good link...Mr. Macyoung makes a lot of sense, and I recommend reading his site for anyone.

As far as knife dueling goes, in a nutshell, it's like this.

ANY dueling training is great for overall developement of skill in the martial craft. However, as with anything, one MUST know what one is training for. A self-defense encounter with a knife will never involve squaring off knife vs. knife with an opponent the same way as a duel. Same as in a gun fight you will never take 10 paces, turn, and shoot. Or in a fist fight, you'll never box or MMA grapple the opponent in the way you would a match. Self-defense, essentially, never happends like a duel, even if some of the characteristics are similar.

If I am training to knife duel, I must know that I am doing so for many reasons that go beyond self-defense. And as with ANY training in a controlled environment, I must know how the ingredients of a self-defense encounter are different then my training.

When it comes to training vs. reality, what you don't know CAN hurt you.

Paul

 

[Feisty Mouse]

tgace - interesting link, thanks.

I agree with Tulisan about training in a dueling scenario. I've always appreciated my instructors who do not fail to point out that each "engagement" is exceptionally brief (unlike stick-sparring or empty-hands) - one, two cuts, and one person has "won". It is VERY fast. It is good training, and I'm glad we do it, but I'm also thankful my instructors are very honest with us about practicing with plastic and nylon and foam, versus actually facing someone who is trying to cut/kill you.

 

[Andrew Green]

I think it comes down to how it begins.

Usually the argument is that it doesn't start the same. Well, ok but...

If it starts by means of a surprise attack then your first priority has got to be to avoid/recover/survive that initial action and get to a position from which you can fight back. Esentially you want to turn it into a duel, ideally doing so without pause and taking control right off the start.

But basically it comes down to a duel that starts unevenly.

 

[loki09789]

If I am training to knife duel, I must know that I am doing so for many reasons that go beyond self-defense. And as with ANY training in a controlled environment, I must know how the ingredients of a self-defense encounter are different then my training.

When it comes to training vs. reality, what you don't know CAN hurt you.

Paul

Training for 'dueling' and calling it that will get you in some heavy trouble with the legal aspect of use of force as well. Remember that self defense is a justification/defense. So, if you have formalized/documented 'dueling' training in your background and do not clearly state that the tradition is 'dueling' but your purpose and adaptation of that training is and has always been for self defense....you will be making it very hard on your defense attorney later on .

It the legal battle EVERYTHING you know can be used against you when the prosecuting attorney is using your own words, training, brochures, instructor's curriculum and everything else against you.

That is why I avoid using "deadliest art known to man" comments in any advertising/explanations. STuff like that can bite you later on.

 

[Jerry]

An interesting thing to try in your knifeplay. When going into a spar, decide that you don't care if you get cut or not, simply that you are going to kill him. Let him chop at most anything he likes... there's nothing that will incapacitate you in under 11 seconds that's realistically going to be done with a knife anyway.

Abandon all desire except the desire to cut him often, and cut anything that gets within reach. You want the "good spots", but if you can get it, take it.

I'm curious whose sparring partners suddenly have a great deal of trouble.

 

[OULobo]

An interesting thing to try in your knifeplay. When going into a spar, decide that you don't care if you get cut or not, simply that you are going to kill him. Let him chop at most anything he likes... there's nothing that will incapacitate you in under 11 seconds that's realistically going to be done with a knife anyway.

Abandon all desire except the desire to cut him often, and cut anything that gets within reach. You want the "good spots", but if you can get it, take it.

I'm curious whose sparring partners suddenly have a great deal of trouble.

I run drills like this at our school. I usually save it for special occations and for the beginners. The beginners get a more realistic idea of what a knifing will be like and the regulars get a wake up call. We do a few prison shank exercises too, where the attacker attacks with forward pressure and constant pumping. I'd like to designate a practice every month, when instructors can randomly stab or attack someone during lesson/class changes and rests. I figure it would raise the situational awarness.

 

[arnisador]

Jerry is right that it's very hard to stop someone determined to plungethat knife in you regardless of his/her own safety. I've heard FMA practitioners suggest this as as strategy--trade a cut for a deep stab, or usually a serious of them, getting more deadly as the first few wear the victim down.

Knife dueling develops some great attributes but the fact of the matetr is that most times you won't have time enough to draw your own knife. (If you thought an attack was imminent, you'd have left the area already!) It does really highlight the danger of the blade though, and develops "bladed motion" attributes.

 

[Cruentus]

That is why I avoid using "deadliest art known to man" comments in any advertising/explanations. STuff like that can bite you later on.

That's sound advice.

An interesting thing to try in your knifeplay. When going into a spar, decide that you don't care if you get cut or not, simply that you are going to kill him. Let him chop at most anything he likes... there's nothing that will incapacitate you in under 11 seconds that's realistically going to be done with a knife anyway.

Abandon all desire except the desire to cut him often, and cut anything that gets within reach. You want the "good spots", but if you can get it, take it.

I'm curious whose sparring partners suddenly have a great deal of trouble.

Sounds like a good exercise.

If someone is that determined, then he will have time to continue trying to cut you even after you have cut him. The only solution in that case is to make your defense count; thus disabling his ability to attack you.

 

[Sifu Barry Cuda]

Hey everybody,some great posts here! Its funny, when I posted this I had never heard the term dueling before.In all the years Ive been teaching I never once taught knife sparring as something that would actually happen in the street.I teach it the way it was taught to me- as an attribute builder.If you never knife sparred before ,you realize that standing still wont work and going into a boxer/kickboxer thing wont work either, so it brings out a different mentality.If its taught as a game- dont let the knife touch you,you learn a whole new body mechanics and footwork.If you use hard rubber knives and NO gear like I do with my advanced people you get a good wake up for your central nervous sytem.Im not aware of anybody that teaches knife sparring or dueling as a real life situation and I didnt mean to imply that I did.Like someone said earlier, I believe even if you carry a knife, if someone jumps out of nowhere and tries to stick you its empty hand against the knife all the way.There is no time to try and reach for yours.Barry www.combatartsusa.com

 

[[email protected]]

Hello everyone,

Great thread! Over the years we have seen many systems come and go, then there was the prison fighting systems tie in etc. But, if you have seen any footage of an attack on the street, much of it will happen very quickly. Occasionally two people will be armed and it will sort of resemble a duel.

Dueling/sparring as a method of training can enhance your reactions times and fighting attributes, but this must also be tempered with a serious look at scenario training. I have a short article up on my website about Blade sparring (www.bujinkandojo.net) that fills in more of what I writing about here.

Gumagalang
Guro Steve L.

 

[Knarfan]

Good link...Mr. Macyoung makes a lot of sense, and I recommend reading his site for anyone.

As far as knife dueling goes, in a nutshell, it's like this.

ANY dueling training is great for overall developement of skill in the martial craft. However, as with anything, one MUST know what one is training for. A self-defense encounter with a knife will never involve squaring off knife vs. knife with an opponent the same way as a duel. Same as in a gun fight you will never take 10 paces, turn, and shoot. Or in a fist fight, you'll never box or MMA grapple the opponent in the way you would a match. Self-defense, essentially, never happends like a duel, even if some of the characteristics are similar.

If I am training to knife duel, I must know that I am doing so for many reasons that go beyond self-defense. And as with ANY training in a controlled environment, I must know how the ingredients of a self-defense encounter are different then my training.

When it comes to training vs. reality, what you don't know CAN hurt you.

Paul

Paul,
I think that you make some very good points . Doing drills isn't really fighting . You are essentially developing a skill set . You have to know the differance . You can learn alot about how your skills translate to real life situation by doing some heavy contact & senario training , which has been mentioned already . All to many times I'v trained with people who love to do drills , but when it comes time to really test your skills they are a little hesitant . I think if somone trains like that they are selling themselves short . On the other side of the fence you have the hard core Mac Youngs & Ryans of the world who tell you MA won't really help you in real life . Especially when it comes to Knife fighting . I have many videos from Mac Young & Ryan & I think that they have alot of great & realistic points of veiw . The problem that I have , especially with Mac Young is his assault on MA in general . FMA to be more precise . I'v been training in FMA for about fifteen years . Edge weapons & stick . I wouldn't trade my training for anything . It has saved my life twice . I'v never had one of my FMA instructors ever tell me that they had the greatest art in the world (like Mac Young likes to say over & over ) . Nor have they ever told me that I had a realistic chance of suriving a blade attack empty handed . It has acually been the opposite . Mac Young also likes to say that , if you decide to take a blade art from a FMA player that you will get a big sales pitch & learn alot of BS that dosen't work . The funny thing is , he's got one of the biggest sales pitches going . That is why I prefer to train in FMA . Because generally speaking you won't get the sales pitch & most of the people you meet aren't "BIG MOUTH BLOW HARDS" who need to put somthing down to prove their point . Really , I have a hard time trying to figure out what point he is trying to make . I guess it's just the american way . I know I'v gotten off point , but really don't you think that he is getting a little to much praise ?
Aren't most of these knife dicusstions & little rediculas . I personally like to knife duel . It improves my skill level . In a real situation who knows ? Training in knife fighting dosen't mean that you are macho . It really means that you are trying to give yourself the best chance to survive , if something does happen . Basic self defense won't keep you alive . So you really have to cover all angles . Knife dueling may be one of them . Mac Young has an agenda , like alot of people . I just hope nobody breaks their ankles when they jump off the band wagon .

Respects
Frank "Always a student , never an expert"

 

[Cruentus]

Ridicules? Maybe...I guess it depends on the motive.

I use most discussions to gain a learning opportunity; whether it is from formulating my own thoughts, or hearing the thoughts of others. So, from that perspective, I wouldn't say it is ridicules.

As to Mr. Macyoung; I have never seen him in action, but he does make some valid points on his site about many martial artists. Does his critique's fit ALL FMAers? No. But they are points to be taken into consideration.

Although I have a tactical system, I am an FMAer, and I don't take his critiques personally. I guess whether someone takes offense to his critiques depends on how well the shoe fits...

Paul

 

[Rich Parsons]

Ridicules? Maybe...I guess it depends on the motive.

I use most discussions to gain a learning opportunity; whether it is from formulating my own thoughts, or hearing the thoughts of others. So, from that perspective, I wouldn't say it is ridicules.

As to Mr. Macyoung; I have never seen him in action, but he does make some valid points on his site about many martial artists. Does his critique's fit ALL FMAers? No. But they are points to be taken into consideration.

Although I have a tactical system, I am an FMAer, and I don't take his critiques personally. I guess whether someone takes offense to his critiques depends on how well the shoe fits...

Paul

I have never met Mr. MacYoung. I have never even traded e-mails, but the one thing I can tell from his posts is that he has lived a few of the posts and discussions he discusses. I like his point of view, for realistic dicussion, and to keep people in reality. Yet, I do not base my whole life on his writings nor his philosphy.

As to knife dueling, I agree it depends upon how you train and why train, and how the individual makes it their own and uses when it is required that counts.

:asian:

 

[BoxANT]

personally i don't really see alot of practical appliaction to "knife dueling". i mean, if someone wants to knife fight me, i'll be using the 100 foot technique (ie running away).

however, i do train to use/defend against knife attacks.

these are attacks. that is to say training with someone trying to stab you, not fight you. imo there is a difference.

i mean, if you let yourself get in a "knife fight" then it's probably something you've decided to do (ie you didn't run). and i've worked enough w/ the knife to know that's not something i would want to do.


of course, someone whois good with the knife is (probably) not going to pull it out and threaten you. they're going to kill you when you're not paying attention. that's why (imo) it's good to know your surroundings and have the ability to react quickly, cause it's not about "winning" it's about surviving.

 

[Knarfan]

personally i don't really see alot of practical appliaction to "knife dueling". i mean, if someone wants to knife fight me, i'll be using the 100 foot technique (ie running away).

however, i do train to use/defend against knife attacks.

these are attacks. that is to say training with someone trying to stab you, not fight you. imo there is a difference.

i mean, if you let yourself get in a "knife fight" then it's probably something you've decided to do (ie you didn't run). and i've worked enough w/ the knife to know that's not something i would want to do.


of course, someone whois good with the knife is (probably) not going to pull it out and threaten you. they're going to kill you when you're not paying attention. that's why (imo) it's good to know your surroundings and have the ability to react quickly, cause it's not about "winning" it's about surviving.

I hear what your saying . Keep in mind though that you may not be able to outrun everyone . Do you think that you could outrun O.J. Simpson ?

I run about a 5.1 40 yard dash . Obviously , cardio comes into play . So if you made up your mind to run, try & devote alot of time to improve your running skills . Because it's not as easy to do as everyone thinks . If you don't believe me try it in training . Make sure you practice off of the sneak attack . It's even harder . That being said , the best advice that I would give most people (esspecially people with limited experiance) is to run for your life & do alot of yelling to try & draw attention to the situation . Remember I think the question here though is , does knife dueling have any redeming value . IE is it worth your time in training ? In my opinion , the answer to that question is yes . Like Barry said . Even with all of his weapons training he found out that he had to change his footwork & timing . Probably dramatically . Remember , even if you only have to make minimal changes in your movement & timing paterns in a real life situation it's always going to be percieved as a big change . Because it's all reletive to the time you have to react . So even if you only have to step an extra 6" or move a split second faster . It's always going to seem more dramatic in real time . Another misleading theory is that when attacked , you will have all your choices available . A seasoned criminal or prediter will take your choices away . At the least , limit your options . Again I'm not saying running is a bad choice . It should probably be everyones 1st choice . I just don't think that it should be done in lieu of serious training time . In some places in the world were people walk around with machetes , a knife duel may happen more often . I don't really know the statistics . It may happen less often , because everyone now becomes a serious threat . If you do run , remember that witnesses are a criminals biggest enemy . So they do have incentive to run you down . I'll just end with one possible "REAL LIFE" sinario that happened to somone close to me . The perp approaces the victim with a edge weapon at close quarters . The victim makes a split second decition to run his rearend off . It's dark , no one is around . The victim is really trying to get away , but the perp just won't give up & he is faster then the victim , but the victim is weaving in & out of cars doing anything to get away . Long story short the victim gets run down , but while he was running he drew his blade , probably in his 1st five steps . As the victim turns the perp is probably 5 to 10 feet away running full speed . The victim evades & parries . The perp stops his mommentum & turns . The knife duel begins . The perp lauches a savage attack . The victim evades & hits his target on the way out , using technics that he's practiced thoundsands of times . Oh yeah , BTH the paramedics coulden't get to the perp in time . One serious mistake ended his life & a little bad luck of course ....

 

[BoxANT]

sayoc FF: i understand where you're coming from and agree.

i think my definition of "knife dueling" is slightly different. to me, defending yourself w/ a knife against an attack armed with a knife is NOT the same as knife dueling.

to me, knife dueling is when to people armed with knifes engage in a one on one confrontation. they focus on each other and are determined to win.

defending yourself with a knife against a knife (imho) is different. it usually happens when someone attacks you with a knife. most times the defender doesn't even have his knife out, because a good attacker is not going to give you the time to pull it out. you begin defending yourself unarmed, but then either use your (or your attackers) knife later on.

in the rare situation in which you see your attack has a knife, can't get away, and have time to arm your self. then pehraps this is a "knife duel". but i really still feel it is more knife defense if you simply use your knife only when your opponent tries to attack you (while you're trying to leave).

once you've passed up opportunities to disengage/leave in order to further the attack (unless you're military,LEO, etc) you've really risking being put to blame in the legel sense.

so basically, i really don't see much use for "knife dueling".

 

[Cruentus]

There are a lot of nice posts, and good arguements on this thread.

I kind of agree with both points of view. I see that there is value in training knife dueling. dueling training and working live with a partner is a great way to help you build better skills. Maneuvering, timing, technique, and so forth.

However, just doing drills and live sparring isn't enough to get a complete self-defense picture. I think that you should back up your martial arts training with some things on the tactical side. Scenario training, awareness training, and some academic study on pre and post incident strategies for example. This will help you build a complete self-defense picture. This stuff, btw, is also independent of your "art," usually.

There are many knife dueling arts (Sayoc Kali being one of these) that are great arts and will help build you into a better combatant and martial artist. However, there is other due diligance that one must do outside of the art to get a complete self defense picture.

Paul

 

[Knarfan]

Hey guys,

I appriciate your responses . I understand your point of veiw totally . Like most good people who have high moral standards you are trying to live by a high code of ethics . I admire that . I guess it's just that I see so many innocent people having their lives distroyed . I guess there is no easy answer to the problem . In a real life situation the deck is stacked against the victims . I think that we are conditioned to think like victims & that may have an effect on how we solve our problems . Good or bad who knows . Maybe there are just some problems that can never be solved . I think the one thing that is apparent is that there is really never going to be a truely reliable response to an extreme situation for the victims . Thats sad , but thats life . I hope my rediculas comment didn't offened anyone . Maybe I should have said drawing conclutions to soon wasen't a good idea . In my opinion , of course . So maybe it dosen't matter if we agree on the same training technics . Atleast were not apathetic . Thats definatly a positive step in the right direction . Also , I have to go on record & say that my senario attack story was fiction . Meant only as an example of possibilities . I'm sure you can understand .

Frank