Unarmed Florida Teen Shot

[crushing]

And then there are people who heard "f**king clothes" or "f**king dabloons" or "f**king baboons" (no, probably don't wanna admit hearing that one)... maybe "f**king spittoons" or "f**K! Honeymoons" or even "muffin spoons".

It may be a bit soon to make light of the tragedy.

 

[MJS]

It seems to me from what I have seen of his history calling 911 that he had established a pattern of calling, observing and reporting. In the earlier posts, steve listed some of the 911 calls he had made before and there was not a pattern of him actively trying to apprehend, hold or detain, anyone that he called on. He may very well have simply been following to observe and report the location of martin when the police arrived at the scene, and that seems to be shown on the 911 call. If he was going to confront martin, he could have done that when he first saw martin walking near his truck. He didn't get out then, and point his pistol, he let him walk by and then continued observing and reporting what he saw.

What made him feel the need to follow Martin, especially after he was told not to? Because in past calls, the cops didn't get there quick enough, as if they're supposed to get there in 2 secs? Why, as a citizen, would you want to put yourself in harms way, when you know nothing about the person(s) you're watching/following?

Also, that was where he lived. He had as much if not more of a right to be walking anywhere on the grounds of that gated community, and as long as he didn't pull the pistol, or try to touch martin, he hadn't done anything wrong. If he pointed the pistol first, which there doesn't seem to be any evidence of with two eye witnesses to the fight, or he touched, grabbed or hit martin first, then he crossed the line first and he would be in trouble. Otherwise, he could have walked behind martin all day long and he wouldn't have been breaking the law. then martin could have called the police about some guy following him.

Agreed, and did Martin have a right to be there as well? I may be wrong, but wasn't he visiting someone in the area? Hell, I take calls all the time for suspicious black males on the corner. I ask what they're doing. Know what the caller says? Well, they're not doing anything except standing around. They look suspcious. Umm...sure, ok.

As far as the racial slur, can you link to the actual point where he used it. I heard it was indistinct, and you may not be able to determine what he actually said. Also, if he did use it, you would have to weigh that against all the actual activity he did that goes against the accusation that he was a racist. There seems to be a lot of that stacking up. Also, even if he did use the term, that still doesn't mean he planned on killing martin, or wanted to.

I heard it in one of the clips linked here. I'm not going to seek out where it is, as this thread is 19 pages.

 

[shesulsa]

It seems most people think he said that, especially the people that have listened to the 'enhanced audio' from CNN or have only read or heard that he said that, but didn't actually listen to unaltered audio version. Many people think he said "F**king punks" or "F**king cold". I fall in to the group that heard the enhanced audio first and really can't "unhear" it.

It helps if you read what I've posted. I don't watch nor listen to CNN - I posted links to the recorded 911 calls, unenhanced. I listened to all of the ones I've posted and have read all the articles I linked to in their entirety. Instead of telling me what other people have listened to and what they think they heard, it would be nice if YOU could listen to the unenhanced recordings I posted and tell me what YOU heard. Thanks.

 

[shesulsa]

And then there are people who heard "f**king clothes" or "f**king dabloons" or "f**king baboons" (no, probably don't wanna admit hearing that one)... maybe "f**king spittoons" or "f**K! Honeymoons" or even "muffin spoons".

The emperor's new clothes are beautiful, are they not?

It may be a bit soon to make light of the tragedy.

I read his post to be a pun at the refusal to acknowledge the racial implications at all costs based solely on partisan politics and the polarity therein.

 

[granfire]

It helps if you read what I've posted. I don't watch nor listen to CNN - I posted links to the recorded 911 calls, unenhanced. I listened to all of the ones I've posted and have read all the articles I linked to in their entirety. Instead of telling me what other people have listened to and what they think they heard, it would be nice if YOU could listen to the unenhanced recordings I posted and tell me what YOU heard. Thanks.

well, he said he heard the enhanced form, thus can't make it unheard, so his opinion is tainted.

But seriously, considering the game shows and such that make fun 9and bank) of butchered song lyrics, I don't doubt for a minute that a whole bunch of BS could be interpreted into the tapes.

I mean, i have moments were I look at a person speaking generally good English to me and I only see the lips move and don't understand a lick of anything....

 

[ballen0351]

I read his post to be a pun at the refusal to acknowledge the racial implications at all costs based solely on partisan politics and the polarity therein.

Much like the refusal to acknowledge Race has nothing to do with deciding if this was self defense or not. The color of the skin makes no difference on whether Zimmerman did or did not have the right to defend himself or if he commited a crime. But it sure sells alot of Paper and makes for a good news story. So good infact the "unbias" news media that some of you keep getting your "FACTS" from have been show to be wrong over and over and now admit to basiclly lying or "Creative editing" to make the story even better. If I wrote my poice reports and did "creative Editing" like that Ib be fired and prob charged criminally and convicted. But who cares it makes for great ratings right and keeps Al Sharptons pockets full.

 

[billc]

Hmmm...here it is from a link from breitbart.com the story of CNN with a state of the art system and the reporter says it sounds like he is saying....get ready for it...."Cold." The reporter also goes on to say that it was unseasonably cold out that night.

The attached video plays the remark several times and the reporter says it sounds like he says "******* Cold." The video is in the following link for anyone who wants to hear the updated, potentially non-racist word "Cold."


http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Journalism/2012/04/05/CNN-Coon-Cold-Zimmerman

[h=1]Zimmerman Said 'Cold' Not 'Co*n': Most Trusted Name In News Back-peddles[/h]

Shorter CNN to George Zimmernan:


Gee, George, sorry we pretty much declared you a racist in front of all of America before having all the facts, but Obama's all-in on this one and we're all-in for Obama and since you're a registered Democrat, we think you'll understand.
XXXOOO

Hmmmm..."Cold,"...does that make him a racist too...This is another reason some hate the Breitbart sites. The "Bigs" tend to deflate the agendas of a lot of people.

 

[crushing]

The emperor's new clothes are beautiful, are they not?

I read his post to be a pun at the refusal to acknowledge the racial implications at all costs based solely on partisan politics and the polarity therein.

Ah yes, the two main sides of the partisan polarity have definitely taken shape in this discussion. You have the side that thinks that people are basically good with good intentions against the side that assumes the worse in people. I don't think anyone can deny the racial implications. If it weren't for race this discussion wouldn't have gone on for 19 pages, if at all here on MT.

Recently I've been thinking about this tendency towards a sort of political tribalism, that also occurs in areas that I wouldn't consider all that political, would make a very interesting sociology study. Hopefully a non-partisan sociologist is working on that.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

http://dailycaller.com/2012/04/02/z...ill-be-blood-on-your-hands-if-george-is-hurt/

The letter also described how Zimmerman was one of “very few” in Sanford, Fla., who spoke out publicly to condemn the “beating of the black homeless man Sherman Ware on December 4, 2010 by the son of a Sanford police officer.”

“Do you know the individual that stepped up when no one else in the black community would?” the family member wrote. “Do you know who spent tireless hours putting flyers on the cars of persons parked in the churches of the black community? Do you know who waited for the church‐goers to get out of church so that he could hand them fliers in an attempt to organize the black community against this horrible miscarriage of justice? Do you know who helped organize the City Hall meeting on January 8th, 2011 at Sanford City Hall??”

“That person was GEORGE ZIMMERMAN. Ironic isn’t it?”

“The main point for this letter is to explain to you that the black community has labeled George a racist without any investigation at all,” the letter continued. “Regardless of the fact that George personally spoke to many of your constituents, not one has stepped forward and said, ‘Hey I know that face. That is the Hispanic guy that was standing up for Sherman Ware. That was the only non‐black face in the meetings for justice in this case.’”

“You know as well as I do that there are many NAACP followers that recognize George from the Ware case as well as many other good things that he’s done for the black community.”

Clayton is one NAACP regional leader who has broken ranks with the Rev. Jesse Jackson and MSNBC host the Rev. Al Sharpton, refusing to join their calls for an escalation in protest tactics.

“We are not calling for any sanctions, against any business or anyone else,” Clayton said. “And, of course, what Rev. Sharpton does, that’s strictly the [National] Action Network. We can’t condone that part of the conversation, if that’s what he said.”

This was the video of the beating of the homeless man that allegedly got Zimmerman fired up:

WHY would Zimmerman stand up for the homeless (black) man against the police if he is racist?

I would think that there would be some way to find witnesses to his supposed 'handing out leaflets' and so on. Seems to me that the story is either true, or an outright lie. If it's a lie, it's a pretty carefully crafted one; and one likely to be caught out.

So did he or did he not defend the homeless man? And if he did, I think we can lay this 'racist' theory to rest.

 

[crushing]

I heard it in one of the clips linked here. I'm not going to seek out where it is, as this thread is 19 pages.

It helps if you read what I've posted. I don't watch nor listen to CNN - I posted links to the recorded 911 calls, unenhanced. I listened to all of the ones I've posted and have read all the articles I linked to in their entirety. Instead of telling me what other people have listened to and what they think they heard, it would be nice if YOU could listen to the unenhanced recordings I posted and tell me what YOU heard. Thanks.

I went back through the thread and found shesulsa's post that had the link http://sanfordfl.gov/investigation/trayvon_martin.html. This link has a section of 911 Calls In Not Particular Order. "Call 1" is the one where he says "punks" or "*****." I fully expected to here the derogatory term when listening, but instead I heard "cold." Maybe it was because the apparent wind gusts that began to pick up before he said whatever he said that influences me to think he said cold? But, are windy rainy 60 degree days considered cold?

 

[shesulsa]

Much like the refusal to acknowledge Race has nothing to do with deciding if this was self defense or not. The color of the skin makes no difference on whether Zimmerman did or did not have the right to defend himself or if he commited a crime.

1. Zimmerman's motivation to pursue Martin is absolutely applicable to whether it was self-defense or not. If he is biased towards young black men wearing hoodies ... AGAIN, TO THE EXTENT THAT HE WOULD IGNORE HIS TRAINING TO OBSERVE AND REPORT ... to the point where he would actively pursue such a person causing no trouble but based on looks alone, his pursuit *counts* as threatening, harassing behavior and could be considered as cause for Martin to defend *himself.*

2. It is difficult to ignore how ready everyone is to jump to self-defense for the adult, but not the teen ... the pursuer but not the pursued.

 

[granfire]

I went back through the thread and found shesulsa's post that had the link http://sanfordfl.gov/investigation/trayvon_martin.html. This link has a section of 911 Calls In Not Particular Order. "Call 1" is the one where he says "punks" or "*****." I fully expected to here the derogatory term when listening, but instead I heard "cold." Maybe it was because the apparent wind gusts that began to pick up before he said whatever he said that influences me to think he said cold? But, are windy rainy 60 degree days considered cold?

In Florida?
You betcha!

 

[Wo Fat]

A simple question to help this discussion along:

What is racism and how does it manifest?

 

[granfire]

1. Zimmerman's motivation to pursue Martin is absolutely applicable to whether it was self-defense or not. If he is biased towards young black men wearing hoodies ... AGAIN, TO THE EXTENT THAT HE WOULD IGNORE HIS TRAINING TO OBSERVE AND REPORT ... to the point where he would actively pursue such a person causing no trouble but based on looks alone, his pursuit *counts* as threatening, harassing behavior and could be considered as cause for Martin to defend *himself.*

2. It is difficult to ignore how ready everyone is to jump to self-defense for the adult, but not the teen ... the pursuer but not the pursued.

I don't exactly where you get that everybody jumps to the adults version of things.

I have not followed the story past what I can't avoid in the news, but it seems to me that we are having 2 things going on here:
A) explanation as to why the shooter is not in jail, nor being charged as of yet.
B) an attempt to understand the legal lay of the land in regards to self defense.

And naturally the efforts to understand the events.

 

[ballen0351]

1. Zimmerman's motivation to pursue Martin is absolutely applicable to whether it was self-defense or not. If he is biased towards young black men wearing hoodies ... AGAIN, TO THE EXTENT THAT HE WOULD IGNORE HIS TRAINING TO OBSERVE AND REPORT ... to the point where he would actively pursue such a person causing no trouble but based on looks alone, his pursuit *counts* as threatening, harassing behavior and could be considered as cause for Martin to defend *himself.*

So if Zimmerman was black and was following a stranger in his neighborhood then the shooting would automatically be ok? Thats basically what your saying that because zimmerman was a racist automatically makes him guilty of murder regardless of the facts. Thats just not how the system works he either defended himself or commited murder race dont matter.

2. It is difficult to ignore how ready everyone is to jump to self-defense for the adult, but not the teen ... the pursuer but not the pursued.

really because almost everyone including the President of the United States has been on Martins side to the degree that even the media is making up Lies to further the story. There have been very few people defending the Adult. That is up until now that the truth is coming out and people are seeing its not as cut and dry as it was first reported

 

[billc]

"Pursue," is an interesting word. If he ran after Martin, drew his weapon and tried to "hold" him for police, that would be one thing. If by "pursue," it is meant that he followed at a distance so that he could tell the police where the guy went, that is a different story. Once again, the main point is who touched who first. If Zimmerman pulled the pistol and threatened martin first, he's in trouble. Since they both had the right to be in the public area of the gated community, I don't see how it matters if Zimmerman was following martin. As long as he didn't touch or draw the pistol, it was an open, common area, in a place where zimmerman actually lived and martin was visiting. The words "chased" and "pursue" are loaded and imply things that we can't know about. The word "followed" would be a good word that might actually be more accurate. Which word is more accurate still remains to be seen.

As far as heat goes, a friend of mine just returned from Africa. He said the people there were freezing on the few days the temperature went down to 70 degrees, most days I guess it was well over 100 degrees, and they were mystified how he could wear shorts when the temperature was so chilly.

 

[Wo Fat]

So I'll ask again:

What is racism and how does it manifest?

 

[ballen0351]

So I'll ask again:

What is racism and how does it manifest?

You tell me

 

[Wo Fat]

You tell me

Well, I think that's part of our problem; the presumption that one can tell another what racism is, and that another can tell him or her that it does not exist. It's one thing to know and learn what racism is. And it's quite another to deny it's existence whenever possible. The good/bad thing is that racism takes many forms; from the obvious to the sublime.

While it's easy to reference wiki, it is a decent start:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism

 

[billc]

Hmmm...and now there is this...

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Journalism/2012/04/06/NBC-News-seven-calls-no-racism

[h=2]After selectively editing George Zimmerman to look racist in front of the entire country, and then following that abomination up with a whitewash investigation, NBC News is now reporting that over seven calls to police George Zimmerman made between August 2011 and February 2012, there was no racism:[/h]

In the seven phone calls that George Zimmerman made to the Sanford, Fla., non-emergency police line between August 2011 and February 2012, he never mentioned the race of a person he deemed suspicious before he was asked.
According to the report by NBC News, the volunteer neighborhood watchman sounded calm on the phone when he described the men.
​

NBC News adds:

Zimmerman mentioned race only when the dispatcher asked him to specify, a fact that could bode well for the 28-year-old who has come under fire for shooting the unarmed black teenager in his gated community.
​

Gee, ya' think, employer of Al Sharpton?
The release of this new information does invite a question or two: Will this story lead all the NBC News broadcasts? Will this new information get as much play and viral-osity in the rest of the corrupt media as did the maliciously edited 911 tape created by a "senior" producer who will not be named and who still has a job?

And so the racism angle to this story slowly becomes less and less likely as more and more comes out about Zimmerman...He didn't use the "C" word but the "cold," or "punk" word, he was asked what race martin was by the authority figure on 911...does this still mean he executed this kid because martin was black? Hmmmm...