UFC proves KF useless

[clfsean]

Wouldn't that make it a modern art?

No. Because it's not an art unto itself. It's an aspect of TCMA, just like the term "Modern Wushu" is used to notate the form performance only & athletic expression of TCMA.

And for all intents and purposes its modern kickboxing with a Chinese twist. When people say Kung Fu in MMA they're looking for the old school stuff, like Drunken or Tiger Style.

You're not going to find a Shaw Brothers resemblance in any serious TCMA school. You should find two people squaring off & the clashing with one person ending up on the ground after a quick exchange. No poses, no animal noises, no swearing vengeance for the dishonor brought to their teacher or temple... just a quick exchange & then somebody is down. Reset & repeat. The great showy "kung fu" moves are distilled down to essence & applied. Mechanics, intention, set up for take downs, methodologies, etc... that's what make it "kung fu", not the trappings.

 

[Hanzou]

I think you're picking nits. Bjj is modern judo, which was at that time modern jujutsu.

Not at all. If someone is saying that there's traditional Kung Fu in MMA, and the only thing they're displaying is modern Chinese Kickboxing, I simply can't agree with that argument.

 

[Mephisto]

Haven't read the last 15 pages but jumping in late, my thoughts relating to the op are: Kung fu had had success in K1 and San shou to my understanding but I don't really follow sports closely so feel free to chime in. It seems that currently MMA draws from established martial sports. Sports such as judo, Muay thai, boxing, bjj, wrestling all have many generations of refinement. The benefit of sportive martial arts is that they can be safely trained to a high level of performance. Arts that are too dangerous to apply to a fully resisting opponent actually do themselves a disservice because valuable refinement is lacking. Both "deadly" street and sport techniques are beneficial in my opinion but a solid base built in resistance training and sport makes a solid fighter.

One solution is to create a sport event that caters to your particular art. BJJ found a niche within vale tudo and exploited a lack of penalties for prolonging ground grappling. Judo has taken precautions to keep judo comps about judo and restrict BJJ players that might enter judo comps. Boxing favors its skillset as well. If a rule set were created to favor a school in Kung fu given generations of refinement we might find a striking or grappling system strong enough to withstand the rigors of the ring. in not saying there aren't arts ready for the ring now but popularity within a sports community would help others realize an arts practicality. However we have the example of Olympic tkd which is too specialized to be readily applicapable to MMA or a sport where hand strikes and grappling are allowed. We have seen some tkd in MMA but these guys also seem to have a strong Muay thai game as well and add tkd kicks as an unexpected novelty.

 

[Danny T]

I definitely do agree that every MMAist trains in multiple arts, but I have yet to see someone breaking out a crane stance, a Bagua palm strike, or a one-inch pinch in the Octagon.

And one won't see it in fight either unless one knows and understands what one is looking for.
Postures are for form not fighting. Postures whether it be stance, body, arms, or hands are but moments in time. A snap shot if you will not for freezing in for all to admire. I use the inch punch; Often. I doubt you know what it is or how it is applied other than what you have seen in a demonstration showing the force displayed which is not how it is used. Same with the crane stance. Have use it many times sparring but again when one doesn't know what one is looking for one will never see it hidden in plain view.

 

[Steve]

Not at all. If someone is saying that there's traditional Kung Fu in MMA, and the only thing they're displaying is modern Chinese Kickboxing, I simply can't agree with that argument.

how much do you know about Chinese kickboxing?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[elder999]

I think you're picking nits. Bjj is modern judo, which was at that time modern jujutsu.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

BJJ=Basically Just Judo.

(Sorry, Steve, I just can't help myself, sometimes! Merry Christmas!)

 

[Hanzou]

how much do you know about Chinese kickboxing?

That this;

Looks far different than this;

 

[clfsean]

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA ... you picked Jake Mace?? For Real???? OK... sorry for the laughter, but he wouldn't know TCMA if it slapped him & introduced itself.

The first video was a lesson on kick catches & sweeps. So Toi, Pek Toi along with the hands that set the up, off balance & counter/assist on the take down.

Here's basic sanda from my teacher's teacher. Don't know if it will matter or not since honestly I feel you're trying so hard to pigeon hole what you perceive it to be as opposed to what it actually is, but anyway ... the vids below are what he learned from his teacher Chan Tai San. Among other things, Chan Tai San was a WWII Peasant's Division member & then later, boxing/hand to hand combat teacher in the PLA & then sanda coach for the Guangdong provincial wushu team.

 

[Hanzou]

Don't know if it will matter or not since honestly I feel you're trying so hard to pigeon hole what you perceive it to be as opposed to what it actually is

Not really. I'm pointing out that when I think of Kung Fu, I'm thinking of this;

Not kickboxing.

Also palm strikes may be illegal in Sanshou, but they're perfectly legal in MMA.

 

[Danny T]

Not really. I'm pointing out that when I think of Kung Fu, I'm thinking of this;

Thank you. This is very telling of you have an Extremely Limited view of Kung Fu.

 

[elder999]

Not really. I'm pointing out that when I think of Kung Fu, I'm thinking of this;

[
Not kickboxing.

Also palm strikes may be illegal in Sanshou, but they're perfectly legal in MMA.

So, what you're saying-again-is that if it doesn't look like what you think it should look like, then it must be something else. Like if karate has grappling, or if judo has strikes, they must have come from somewhere else.....I don't know why we even bother......all this, for a thread that was dead for eight years....(and the old "rolleyes" smiley was a lot more effective than this guy)

 

[clfsean]

Not really. I'm pointing out that when I think of Kung Fu, I'm thinking of this;

Not kickboxing.

Then yeah, DannyT hit it on the head. Your experience with TCMA is limited.

Also palm strikes may be illegal in Sanshou, but they're perfectly legal in MMA.

That's awesome. But that's not where this was going.

Anyway, I'm done. Enjoy your holidays.

 

[Hanzou]

Thank you. This is very telling of you have an Extremely Limited view of Kung Fu.

Actually, I have a very expansive view of Kung fu. Sanshou which clearly incorporates modern boxing, and several techniques from Muay Thai kickboxing is definitely not traditional CMA. When people wonder why KF isn't in MMA, they're not thinking of kickboxing, their thinking of traditional Kung Fu.

 

[Hanzou]

So, what you're saying-again-is that if it doesn't look like what you think it should look like, then it must be something else. Like if karate has grappling, or if judo has strikes, they must have come from somewhere else.....I don't know why we even bother......all this, for a thread that was dead for eight years....(and the old "rolleyes" smiley was a lot more effective than this guy)

So you're saying that you can't tell the difference between traditional CMA and a kickboxing style?

 

[elder999]

So you're saying that you can't tell the difference between traditional CMA and a kickboxing style?

No, I'm saying that you can't, apparently.

Actually, I have a very expansive view of Kung fu. Sanshou which clearly incorporates modern boxing, and several techniques from Muay Thai kickboxing is definitely not traditional CMA. When people wonder why KF isn't in MMA, they're not thinking of kickboxing, their thinking of traditional Kung Fu.

Sanshou doesn't clearly incorporate modern boxing or several techniques from Muay Thai-it was originally entirely derived from TCMA.

What individual practitioners may or may not do is another matter.

Take away the kicking and wing chun-and a few other styles-can look an awful lot like modern boxing to an untrained eye.....like yours.

 

[elder999]

Here, from this website:

In 1924, the Guomindang (Chinese Nationalist Party) established the Whampoa Military Academy in Guangdong (Canton) province, Southern China in order to train the party’s leadership and create a modern military force. Having formed a strategic alliance with the Soviet Union in January 1923, the academy utilized Soviet methods of establishing party discipline, political indoctrination and training of military personnel. As Dr. Sun Yat-Sen, leader of the Guomindang said in 1923 "Since we wish to learn their (the Soviet Union’s) methods, I have asked (Soviet advisor) Mr. (Michael) Borodin to be director of training of our Party." More Soviet advisors arrived in China in 1924, particularly to assist in military training. Of course, the military training is what is of significance to San Shou.
During the Russo-Japanese War (1904-1905), Russian forces had experienced heavy losses in close quarters combat with the Japanese. As a result of these losses, several movements sprung up in Russia concerned with developing better methods of training the military for close quarters combat (CQC). These movements were later unified and the project made official under the leadership of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union (CPSU) upon their assumption of power in 1917. The result of this project is what is today known as Sambo.
While Sambo was designed to prepare Soviet military and national security forces for real CQC including the use of and defense against bladed weapons and firearms, its creators also felt that a sport form which could be safely practiced on a regular basis was an essential part of the program. Why was a sporting adaptation considered essential to the training?
The ability to use your methods in a real situation is dependent upon a number of factors. First, one must have the tools, offensive and defensive, to get the job done. This is the importance of offering a complete training program under the guidance of a skilled coach. However, the rest of the variables are less obvious but no less important.
Does one have the ability to use these techniques upon an opponent who is knowledgeable of the techniques, resisting them and also attempting to launch their own attack? This requires not only perfecting the technique but developing your sense of space and range, the ability to see openings, reaction time and personal strategy. Include into this equation the possibility that the opponent may be using techniques and strategies different than your own.
Furthermore, does one have both the physical and mental condition to engage in a struggle such as this? Does one have the strength, endurance, flexibility? The determination? Will they fall apart under the stress and adrenaline rush, freeze and forget everything they have learned? It has certainly happened in the past to many practitioners. Remember, if you have not been hit or thrown full power (slamming into the ground) you don’ know how you will react to conditions such as these.
A boxer has been punched so many times that he no longer freezes when a blow connects. A wrestler or Judo fighter has been thrown to the ground many times and is accustomed to it. These three individuals are also used to exchange, working with an opponent who is both defending and attacking. They are also used to performing under high stress conditions, with large audiences and for extended periods of time. They benefit from experience gained by competition, i.e. sporting adaptations of what were once strictly combat/self-defense methods. Thus, combat sports allow the student to develop the "attributes" of a warrior, including the appropriate mental attitude, "ruthlessness".
Under the tutelage of Soviet advisors, the Chinese endeavored to create a similar method of training their military forces in CQC. In the case of the Chinese, who lacked an industrial base and access to most modern warfare technology, this program seemed perhaps even more important than in the Russian case. The Whampoa military instructors studied the existing Chinese martial arts traditions and created San Shou. The military San Shou curriculum, designed to prepare military personnel for CQC, addressed what the Chinese had long considered the four basic martial arts skills;
"Da" (Striking) use of fist, open hand, elbow, fingers, head
"Ti" (Kicking) kicking, sweeping, kneeing, stomping
"Shuai" (Throw) wrestling, throwing, takedowns
"Na" (Seizing) joint locks and chokes, i.e. submissions
In establishing a sport version of San Shou, which could be practiced in relative safety on the frequent basis necessary for the development of the basic skills and attributes, the decision was made to use a kickboxing like format. Whether you are verbally harassed, a strike or kick is thrown, you are grabbed or threatened with a weapon, most self-defense situations are initiated while you are standing. Furthermore, being on the ground for any length of time is not advisable both because you are more vulnerable to attack and because the surface itself may present numerous dangers. For these reasons, you should always concentrate on remaining standing and the primary course of study in San Shou addresses the essential elements of a standing fight.
Amateur San Shou
Sport San Shou utilizes striking, kicking and wrestling but not "submission" ("Na") and/or ground grappling. Originally, elbows and knees were utilized in inter-military San Shou competition but they have been removed from the international sport version which was established in 1991 with the first world championships.

No "modern boxing." No Muay Thai.

A little advice: human beings are articulated and move pretty much the same all over the world, and for all of human history. Round kicks in Scotland are gonna look like round kicks from Thailand or France......just sayin'. I've been all over the world, and just because it's a sandwich made with grilled ground meat, doesn't make it an American hamburger, no matter how much it looks like one-but if you eat it, odds are good you won't be hungry any more.

 

[Hanzou]

Here, from this website:

No "modern boxing." No Muay Thai.

You do know that modern boxing predates the 1920s by a pretty significant margin right? Further, you'd have to be pretty daft to ignore Muay Thai's clear influence on Sanshou in recent years.

A little advice: human beings are articulated and move pretty much the same all over the world, and for all of human history. Round kicks in Scotland are gonna look like round kicks from Thailand or France......just sayin'. I've been all over the world, and just because it's a sandwich made with grilled ground meat, doesn't make it an American hamburger, no matter how much it looks like one-but if you eat it, odds are good you won't be hungry any more.

And again, there's a clear difference between a modern kickboxing style and traditional CMAs. We don't point to Bjj when someone asks if there's traditional Japanese Jujutsu in MMA do we?

 

[elder999]

You do know that modern boxing predates the 1920s by a pretty significant margin right? .

Not in China, it doesn't. "Western boxing," as it was called in Asia then, was introduced in Shanghai-mostly in Westerner rental districts, by American and European sailors and the like-in the late 1920s, along with a translation of the book "The Technique of Western Boxing." It didn't really spread much until the late 30's, just before the start of WWII, when it was being taught in Western run schools, and 2 Chinese competed in boxing at the 1936 Olympiad. It wasn't until after WWII that what you call "modern boxing" began to take hold in China, though it was later banned for a time for having "inherent capitalist virtues," like "ruthlessness and brutality. "

So the development of sanshou took place with little or no influence from Western Boxing, in Canton some 700 odd miles (no small distance in China at that time) from Shanghai, and slightly before the introduction of western boxing took place there.

. We don't point to Bjj when someone asks if there's traditional Japanese Jujutsu in MMA do we?

No, we point to it when someone asks if there's judo in MMA.

 

[Hanzou]

Not in China, it doesn't. "Western boxing," as it was called in Asia then, was introduced in Shanghai-mostly in Westerner rental districts, by American and European sailors and the like-in the late 1920s, along with a translation of the book "The Technique of Western Boxing." It didn't really spread much until the late 30's, just before the start of WWII, when it was being taught in Western run schools, and 2 Chinese competed in boxing at the 1936 Olympiad. It wasn't until after WWII that what you call "modern boxing" began to take hold in China, though it was later banned for a time for having "inherent capitalist virtues," like "ruthlessness and brutality. "

So the development of sanshou took place with little or no influence from Western Boxing, in Canton some 700 odd miles (no small distance in China at that time) from Shanghai, and slightly before the introduction of western boxing took place there.

An irrelevant argument, because at this point the influence of western boxing and Muay Thai on modern Sanshou is pretty obvious. A person praciticing Sanshou today is practicing Sanshou under the influence of those outside influences. This is compounded on the fact that Sanshou isn't traditional CMA in the first place, which is the point of the OP.

No, we point to it when someone asks if there's judo in MMA.

The same applies to Judo. When we discuss if there are traditional Japanese Jujutsu in MMA, we wouldn't point to Judo either. Sanshou is clearly a modern sport form of CMAs, just like Judo is a modern sport form of traditional Jujutsu.

 

[Mephisto]

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA ... you picked Jake Mace?? For Real???? OK... sorry for the laughter, but he wouldn't know TCMA if it slapped him & introduced itself.

The first video was a lesson on kick catches & sweeps. So Toi, Pek Toi along with the hands that set the up, off balance & counter/assist on the take down.

Here's basic sanda from my teacher's teacher. Don't know if it will matter or not since honestly I feel you're trying so hard to pigeon hole what you perceive it to be as opposed to what it actually is, but anyway ... the vids below are what he learned from his teacher Chan Tai San. Among other things, Chan Tai San was a WWII Peasant's Division member & then later, boxing/hand to hand combat teacher in the PLA & then sanda coach for the Guangdong provincial wushu team.

I don't know much about the guy in the video but it's common for TMAers to scoff at practitioners that try to liven up a dead art. I'm not necessarily saying that's what's happening here but I've seen it other systems like wc. A guy starts working the traditional techniques with a resisting partner, it's not Immediately impressive to fighters outside the traditional community because what the traditionalist is doing lacks the refinement of generations of application. It just looks like a sloppy unorthodox kickboxing style. On top of that the other traditionalists within the forward thinking guys system deride the guy and label him as unauthentic and stick with their dead patterns. Rather than challenge or show that their "authentic" style is superior they continue doing things the same old way. It would be good for those within the traditional community to prove their art's relevance to modern fighting. Even if some of the traditional stuff applied to a kickboxing or boxing format looks sloppy multiple schools within a system should be able to refine the style to accomodate the kb format over time.