Turtle Defense/ Krav cover

punisher73

Senior Master
Joined
Mar 20, 2004
Messages
3,868
Reaction score
926
Couple of random thoughts,

First KM is now trying to keep out "outside techniques" so people don't keep adding and calling it KM? That's just proprietary BS, Imi's KM when he founded it looks not a whole lot like what is called KM now because of adding techniques. That was kind of the whole point of KM is that if it works and is effective and fits with the criteria than it IS krav maga. This is someone just trying to sell their version and controlling others.

Second, I keep seeing people talking about seeing things in their peripheral vision in a self-defense situation. Always a red flag for me unless there is further explanation because once the adrenaline hits that is the first to go. It is why people get hit with shots that looked telegraphed to a bystander but the person never saw it coming from that angle.

Lastly, I think this is one of those defenses that is great against an untrained person just throwing punches in a haphazard headhunting manner like many streetfights. I don't see this as effective on someone who can keep range and change up the angles of the punches and targets. it leaves the body wide open (which is also one of the complaints on the Crazy Monkey Defense). Again, videos aren't always clear but I keep thinking about an uppercut right up the middle and you wouldn't see it coming.
 

Kababayan

Blue Belt
Joined
May 7, 2017
Messages
215
Reaction score
86
I want to clarify a few things before I get a reputation of being the "Krav police". First of all, my core art for many years was Kempo. We steal pretty much everybody's techniques and call it our own, so I am all for adding techniques to a martial artists bag of tricks. The reason that I bring up when a technique is or isn't part of the Krav system is because there is a strong push in the Krav world to keep the system based on the original philosophies and framework. @punisher73 's explanation as to why was spot on (I hope you don't mind me bringing you into this conversation.) For years Darren Levine, John Whitman, and other early generation kravists have been working on keeping the term "Krav Maga" from becoming a generic term like "Karate". When people see the term karate, a common follow-up question would be, "what kind of karate?" Even my dojo sign advertised "Karate" when I really taught a hybrid blend of martial arts. Kravists with direct ties to Imi don't want that to happen to Krav Maga. Because Krav is a relatively new system, it is easier to see what is and isn't based on the original Krav principles. In fifty years or so, that will probably change. It's no secret that there are a lot of people taking some Krav courses and then opening up their own version of Krav. I think @Runs With Fire coined the phrase "crapmaga" (apologies if it wasn't you.) The term fits because if a person walks into a Krav school, he or she should expect that they are getting the core Krav Maga system. Fifty years from now, the system will probably be so embedded with individual techniques and principles that there will be differentiated Krav Maga systems (see Commando Krav Maga.)

For the record IKMA has been adding techniques to their Krav Maga curriculum for years in an attempt to update Krav's grappling foundation, but the added techniques still follow Krav principles. Imi gave his blessing for his instructors to add techniques to the Krav system. I think the issue is that some newer generation students are adding techniques that don't follow Krav intended principles. In Kempo, we did that all the time (ceiling techniques). The core Krav organizations are trying to limit that.
 
OP
Runs With Fire

Runs With Fire

Black Belt
Joined
Aug 3, 2014
Messages
548
Reaction score
90
Location
Ensley Center, MI
Sounds right. I know a school that was going to take on our program, but decided it wouldn't work. One of the head instructors basically just took their wonan's self defense class, upped the intensity, added fittnes and some hammer fist drills. Calls it Krav Maga. It's not just the same recipie with some different seasoning, it's a completely different recipie. And it's quite sloppy (in a bad way, unlike a sloppy joe). Personally, I am just more concerned with what training I am directly involved with.
 

JowGaWolf

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Aug 3, 2015
Messages
12,750
Reaction score
5,014
A brief explanation of what showed up in the self defense thread.

What without sound so some of these comments may be out of context.

I don't like it. Field of vision is greatly reduced. Head is covered but not the face. You won't see the upper cut until it was too late. The head is covered but there is tone of other stuff that's not covered.

In the video. One arm is locking down the other arm, If you are busy trying to maintain that guard then you aren't thinking about attacking me. Someone who takes angle on that guard will make the defender suffer.

Hands are busy grappling yourself. when they should be seeking the opponent.
 

Kung Fu Wang

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Sep 26, 2012
Messages
12,987
Reaction score
3,983
Location
Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
- Field of vision is greatly reduced.
- Head is covered but not the face.
- You won't see the upper cut until it was too late.
- The head is covered but there is tone of other stuff that's not covered.
- In the video. One arm is locking down the other arm, If you are busy trying to maintain that guard then you aren't thinking about attacking me.
- Hands are busy grappling yourself. when they should be seeking the opponent.
All your addressing here are valid. IMO, it's better to put your fists as closer to your opponent's head instead of next to your own head. There are many benefits for that.
 
Last edited:

drop bear

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
22,657
Reaction score
7,367
Can you clarify your last two paragraphs? Either they are unclear or I need more coffee. Maybe both.

If you duck your head you will get dragged down eat knees and probably get guillotined.

In the video. Guy ducks his head.

If you see a double leg counter to punches. The head is up to prevent that. But the whole body is dropped to get under the flurry of punches.

So I would split the difference. Change levels, rely on the cover to do its job and probably hit them somewhere in the chest, snatch an underhook or something. Mabye just pop them back with the cover and left hook them.
 

Kung Fu Wang

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Sep 26, 2012
Messages
12,987
Reaction score
3,983
Location
Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
If you see a double leg counter to punches. The head is up to prevent that.
If your head is

- up, your opponent can push your forehead back and apply pressure on your neck.
- down, your opponent can push the back of your neck down, or apply reverse head lock on you.

When you apply double legs, there is no perfect head position. If both of your hands try to grab your opponent's legs, you don't have extra hand to protect your head. To assume that your hands are fast enough to grab on your opponent's legs, but your opponent's hands are not fast enough to reach to your head is not realistic.
 
Last edited:
OP
Runs With Fire

Runs With Fire

Black Belt
Joined
Aug 3, 2014
Messages
548
Reaction score
90
Location
Ensley Center, MI
If you duck your head you will get dragged down eat knees and probably get guillotined.

In the video. Guy ducks his head.

If you see a double leg counter to punches. The head is up to prevent that. But the whole body is dropped to get under the flurry of punches.

So I would split the difference. Change levels, rely on the cover to do its job and probably hit them somewhere in the chest, snatch an underhook or something. Mabye just pop them back with the cover and left hook them.
Yeah, makes sense. I was taught to duck a bit, but I see what you are saying. I seem to learn a little somthing every time I make a video.
 

Kung Fu Wang

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Sep 26, 2012
Messages
12,987
Reaction score
3,983
Location
Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
Yeah, makes sense. I was taught to duck a bit, but I see what you are saying.
When you duck, if you push your opponent's elbow joint away from you, you will be safe. Unfortunately, when you use the turtle guard, since both of your arms are used to protect your head, you don't have an extra hand to do that.

When you use both of your arms to protect your head, you will lose some counter ability. IMO, you should interrupt your opponent's attack farther away from your head. One simple example, if you can push on your opponent's right shoulder, his right punch cannot punch out. In order to do so, you have to move your hand closer to your opponent's head.
 
Last edited:

drop bear

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
22,657
Reaction score
7,367
Yeah, makes sense. I was taught to duck a bit, but I see what you are saying. I seem to learn a little somthing every time I make a video.

Yeah. I think it depends what you are used to defending. So someone puts some gloves on and you turtle and enter. Fine its going to work. But if they start cranking that head you could very easily get nose dived in to the dirt.

And this lean drag the head down is a very primal response. That is how people get the old guilotine kneed in the head in a street fight.

Anyway. These are level change concepts for double legs. But they should be almost interchangeable for turtle.

 

Gerry Seymour

MT Moderator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
29,047
Reaction score
9,872
Location
Hendersonville, NC
Yeah. I think it depends what you are used to defending. So someone puts some gloves on and you turtle and enter. Fine its going to work. But if they start cranking that head you could very easily get nose dived in to the dirt.

And this lean drag the head down is a very primal response. That is how people get the old guilotine kneed in the head in a street fight.

Anyway. These are level change concepts for double legs. But they should be almost interchangeable for turtle.

I wish Id trained level changes more and better when my knees were only mildly crappy. Ive been working on them more now, but cant do much in one session. Im afraid my level changes are and might always be weak.
 

drop bear

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
22,657
Reaction score
7,367
I wish Id trained level changes more and better when my knees were only mildly crappy. Ive been working on them more now, but cant do much in one session. Im afraid my level changes are and might always be weak.

Yeah I don't know. A lot of that good posture needs to be trained. There are quite often flexibility issues that then put strain on the joints. And that takes a wile to go away.
 

Gerry Seymour

MT Moderator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
29,047
Reaction score
9,872
Location
Hendersonville, NC
Yeah I don't know. A lot of that good posture needs to be trained. There are quite often flexibility issues that then put strain on the joints. And that takes a wile to go away.
It's harder to train the posture than it would have been back then. Now, just using my knees to get reliably low is the problem with training - the knees only take so much of it. I wish I'd put the time into it ten or twenty years ago so I had the skill already built - less work to maintain than to create. I've been trying to leech some postures and movements from the level changes in grappling techniques and recombine them (they don't really always match up to what you'd use against a good striker) - trying to find things I've already built and leverage them to new uses.

Alright, enough knee-grumbling. I'm grouchy this morning from my late flight. More coffee.
 
OP
Runs With Fire

Runs With Fire

Black Belt
Joined
Aug 3, 2014
Messages
548
Reaction score
90
Location
Ensley Center, MI
Yeah. I think it depends what you are used to defending. So someone puts some gloves on and you turtle and enter. Fine its going to work. But if they start cranking that head you could very easily get nose dived in to the dirt.

And this lean drag the head down is a very primal response. That is how people get the old guilotine kneed in the head in a street fight.

Anyway. These are level change concepts for double legs. But they should be almost interchangeable for turtle.

It does seam like a stand up boxing cover
 

_Simon_

Senior Master
Joined
Jan 3, 2018
Messages
4,204
Reaction score
2,635
Location
Australia
The best turtle defense I've found has gotta be this,

9f0058adc8f3b0355235be7cda68386e.jpg


And if you ever have questions I think these guys know a thing or two about it

80d4bf11d71e3601ec182d0c4cf57817.jpg
 

Kung Fu Wang

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Sep 26, 2012
Messages
12,987
Reaction score
3,983
Location
Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
I wish Id trained level changes more and better when my knees were only mildly crappy. Ive been working on them more now, but cant do much in one session. Im afraid my level changes are and might always be weak.
If I want to apply double legs, I can just separate my opponent's arms from top and down. I can then reach to his legs (while both of my opponent's arms are outside of my arms). Since I can guide my opponent's arms away from my entering path, his arms won't give me trouble.
 

Gerry Seymour

MT Moderator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
29,047
Reaction score
9,872
Location
Hendersonville, NC
If I want to apply double legs, I can just separate my opponent's arms from top and down. I can then reach to his legs (while both of my opponent's arms are outside of my arms). Since I can guide my opponent's arms away from my entering path, his arms won't give me trouble.
The entry isn't my limitation - it's the actual change of level and the knee bend and stress it requires. I can only do so much of that in a session without paying for a few days.
 

Kung Fu Wang

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Sep 26, 2012
Messages
12,987
Reaction score
3,983
Location
Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
The entry isn't my limitation - it's the actual change of level and the knee bend and stress it requires. I can only do so much of that in a session without paying for a few days.
I don't train any throw that require to drop knee on the ground. But I don't mind to drop my knee on my opponent's groin (or body) when he is on the ground.

My teacher used to say "What kind of fighter will you call yourself if you drop your knee in front of your opponent?"
 

Latest Discussions

Top