Turtle Defense/ Krav cover

Gerry Seymour

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I don't train any throw that require to drop knee on the ground. But I don't mind to drop my knee on my opponent's groin (or body) when he is on the ground.

My teacher used to say "What kind of fighter will you call yourself if you drop your knee in front of your opponent?"
It's not dropping the knee to the ground, it's bending it anywhere near 90 degrees (most days, much beyond 45 degrees). Doing that repeatedly irritates my knees a lot.
 
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Runs With Fire

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Are you doing Keysi or Defencelab? I knew your teacher ahd a questionable Krav Maga background, hell even his teacher has.

This cover is so bad in so many ways. What about your sight, you lose it, what about your body? A couple punches to your body would make you cry, even you know how hard a kick can be to the body(because of your TSD background).
It works for what it is. It has some good potential, which either you don't see, or you don't like. That's fine. I don't like the machinegun takedown, I think it's silly. That's fine too.
 
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Runs With Fire

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If you duck your head you will get dragged down eat knees and probably get guillotined.

In the video. Guy ducks his head.

If you see a double leg counter to punches. The head is up to prevent that. But the whole body is dropped to get under the flurry of punches.

So I would split the difference. Change levels, rely on the cover to do its job and probably hit them somewhere in the chest, snatch an underhook or something. Mabye just pop them back with the cover and left hook them.
Could you please explain "double leg counter" or the "double legs" that keeps getting mentioned? Thanks.
 

JowGaWolf

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All your addressing here are valid. IMO, it's better to put your fists as closer to your opponent's head instead of next to your own head. There are many benefits for that.
This how I'm faster than my opponent. Travel shorter distance.
 

JowGaWolf

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I wish Id trained level changes more and better when my knees were only mildly crappy. Ive been working on them more now, but cant do much in one session. Im afraid my level changes are and might always be weak.
How low are you trying to go?
 

Gerry Seymour

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How low are you trying to go?
It doesn't take much. Going from a flexible knee to a change in levels (depending upon the change) while moving takes at least one leg into the 45-90 degree range. If I start entirely upright (not really a fighting stance), I can get a useful change without going into that range, but that's about it. Just standing up to verify my own information, I got to listen to the lovely crunching sounds from my right knee (the rear leg in my quick test). I don't get to hear that when doing drills or sparring - might be time to go see the doc again.
 

JowGaWolf

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It's not dropping the knee to the ground, it's bending it anywhere near 90 degrees (most days, much beyond 45 degrees). Doing that repeatedly irritates my knees a lot.
45 degrees is all you need. A wider stance will help to drop you a little lower. 90 degrees is extremely difficult and it burns leg endurance like jet fuel.
 

Gerry Seymour

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45 degrees is all you need. A wider stance will help to drop you a little lower. 90 degrees is extremely difficult and it burns leg endurance like jet fuel.
I'll go back and see if I can figure a way to push my basic fighting stances wider without losing options. I've already done that in my throwing stances, to the point that I have to remind students to follow what I teach, and not my accommodations.

The problem starts somewhere around 45 degrees. For large changes in levels (slipping a strike from someone shorter, for instance) I'll end up beyond 45 degrees. Part of that is because of the distances I use when blending - at close distance, wider stances limit options too much. It's just something I've learned to work around where I can, but it limits how much time I can spend on some drills.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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change in levels .
What do you mean "level change"? Are you talking about shoot into a single leg or double legs?

It doesn't make sense for a

- shorter person to attack a taller person's head. A shorter person should attack the leg.
- taller person to attack a shorter person's leg. A taller person should attack the head.
 
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JowGaWolf

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I'll go back and see if I can figure a way to push my basic fighting stances wider without losing options. I've already done that in my throwing stances, to the point that I have to remind students to follow what I teach, and not my accommodations.

The problem starts somewhere around 45 degrees. For large changes in levels (slipping a strike from someone shorter, for instance) I'll end up beyond 45 degrees. Part of that is because of the distances I use when blending - at close distance, wider stances limit options too much. It's just something I've learned to work around where I can, but it limits how much time I can spend on some drills.
Yep close quarters would change that. What I described is more of an intermediate to long distant range used to slow your opponent's advance or to cause confusion. closer ranges often require a deeper bend. In the context of fighting in a closer range, there may be few options.
 

drop bear

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What do you mean "level change"? Are you talking about shoot into a single leg or double legs?

It doesn't make sense for a

- shorter person to attack a taller person's head. A shorter person should attack the leg.
- taller person to attack a shorter person's leg. A taller person should attack the head.

You need more than one place to attack.
 

Gerry Seymour

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What do you mean "level change"? Are you talking about shoot into a single leg or double legs?

It doesn't make sense for a

- shorter person to attack a taller person's head. A shorter person should attack the leg.
- taller person to attack a shorter person's leg. A taller person should attack the head.
Actually, it does make sense for a taller person to attack legs, if they are better at doing so than the shorter person is at defending it. But that's beside the point, so to your question. The level changes I'm talking about are what you see boxers do when they slip a punch. As they move, they drop their head lower (largely by bending knees and some collapse of the abdomen) to take the target off the plane of the strike. It's also part of the entering move of single-leg and double-leg in most western systems, if the entry comes from standing. You drop down low for the entry, to get under their arms and body, and hopefully outrun a sprawl before it gets to your back.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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It's also part of the entering move of single-leg and double-leg in most western systems, if the entry comes from standing. You drop down low for the entry, to get under their arms and body, and hopefully outrun a sprawl before it gets to your back.
In this clip, he uses "inner hook" to take his opponent down 7 times. He didn't use any "level change". The 1st time at 0.20.

 

Kung Fu Wang

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I'm not sure how that relates to my post, John. What did I miss?
In another post, you talked about level change. There are many throws that also work well in striking environment without requiring "level change". Any throw that start from a clinch, it won't require level change. For a tall person to drop low is against his body type. Old Chinese wrestling saying said, "If you are tall, attack your opponent's head. If you are short, attack your opponent's leg."
 
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Gerry Seymour

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In another post, you talked about level change. There are many throws that also work well in striking environment without requiring "level change". Any throw that start from a clinch, it won't require level change. For a tall person to drop low is against his body type. Old Chinese wrestling saying said, "If you are tall, attack your opponent's head. If you are short, attack your opponent's leg."
Yes, I know many throws that don't require much level change. I also know a lot of throws (like hip throw) that only don't require a level change if your opponent obligingly stays fairly upright. And there's an area of throws and takedowns I didn't train much, which do depend upon level change, as do some very nice slipping and evasion techniques. I mostly wish I had trained more in the latter.
 

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For a tall person to drop low is against his body type. Old Chinese wrestling saying said, "If you are tall, attack your opponent's head. If you are short, attack your opponent's leg."
If you are tall... and the other guy tries to punch your head... if you level change, and drop low, his entire body is open for any attack you want, as he is reaching for your head still. Seems useful and effective to me.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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If you are tall... and the other guy tries to punch your head... if you level change, and drop low, his entire body is open for any attack you want, as he is reaching for your head still. Seems useful and effective to me.
In wrestling, it's better to be on top than to be on the bottom. The person on top can use his body weigh to press down on the person below.

Every time you drop low, you will give your opponent's a chance to crash you from top.

wrestling_on_top.jpg


The reverse head lock can be a finish move.

 
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