Training The Military

[jks9199]

It is importent to promotion. However, I've only met 1 NCO who had a negative oppion of MCMAP. My Plt Sgt is pretty into having everyone go to MCMAP classes.

Going into, and finding yourself needing are two very different things, know what I mean?

Nobody said anything here about whether or not MCMAP was good. In truth, it's an excellent program for its purpose.

But that's not really the topic here. The topic is about people claiming to have "trained the military" or "taught to law enforcement."

The simple truth there is that way too many people make claims like this on way too little justification. They'll do a demo or a one day seminar, following a private invitation, and use that to imply that they hold some sort of formal position as instructor with one or the other. Or have military or LE personnel come to them on their own time by their own interest and make the same sort of claim.

 

[MJS]

As JKS said in his last post, the claim to fame, is what bothers me the most. For example: I went, many years ago, to a Royce Gracie seminar. I in no way, shape or form, make a claim that I am a student or Royce or an instructor of Gracie Jujitsu. I trained with the man one time, thats it.

On the flip side, I can state that I am a teacher of Modern Arnis, under my instructor. I was promoted to BB under him, I regularly train under him, and I have his blessings to go out and continue to spread the art of Arnis.

People who pad their resume, much like they pad their resume with high rank and claims of high rank in 10 arts, do nothing to impress me, yet their goal is to make others ohhh and ahhhh over them.

"Yeah, I trained the Navy SEALS. I taught them some of the best hand to hand killing techs. known to man!" Ummm...yeah, ok...and how many times have you done this? Are you employed by the Navy? Do they only contract you to teach H2H? Or was this a one shot deal?

IMHO, there is a very big difference between the two.

 

[Aikironin]

Well not only that, but under the Current Army Combatives program you could be a level 1 Certified which is essentially the same as the GCMLE program, and be a Platoon Trainer. Now this means you played with about 36 techniques from the Gracie Curriculum and can make such claims. That you trained X unit or Y unit. This claim is verifiable and true, but...and a big one at that, what does that really mean? As most BJJ Blue Belts have more time under their belts than a Level 1 Combatives guy, as the course is only about a week. Granted it is a long week, but what you learn in a week (30Hr) intensively and can retain is very different than what you might retain in that same time (30Hr) over say 8-10 weeks 2-3 times a week.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Lots of instructors "teach" the military, law enforcement, and more.

Very few of them are actual instructors in the military or law enforcement.

Generally, what happens is someone claims to "teach the military/LE" because they get invited to teach an optional/non-required/unofficial seminar or clinic or they have one or more military members or cops in their classes.

Not quite the same thing as being a formal instructor for the military or LE. And they piss me off with that crap!

So JKS,

The fact that I have students that have gone into or are in the FBI, Homeland Security, or were in the active military and or are currently reserve military, been invited to a closed door not authorized training session to help some guys train before a deployment, means that I am not some special titled instructor for the Special Forces of the Police and national security and military?

WOW, I guess being quiet on this was a good thing, and not running around telling everyone I was training the elite special forces.


A few years ago, I was talking to another local instructor, and mentioned that we had a couple of local deputies form the sheriff department trainng with us. He got all mad and wanted to know why they were 1) going behind his back to train in a different system, and 2) how did we get the approval as he only got it after years of working as a Deputy and lobbying for his training course to be offered. (* As you stated it was offered but not required training *)

I had to explain again that what I said was exactly the truth. We had a couple of Deputies that were training with us, Not that we were training the Deputy department. But he heard what he wanted to hear. Which is why I always track down verbal hearsay comments before making up my mind.

But the written claims are much more readily verified.

 

[Tez3]

We are a military martial arts club by that I mean we are a sports club. the military here don't teach martial arts as part of their training. The Royal Marines do unarmed combat but it's different from martial arts in it's not a sport. The Regimental Police and the Royal Military Police do the usual arrest and restraint training. The Gurkhas however do TKD and although they are quite scary it's still considered as a sport.
We teach TSD, MMA, MT and SD. We do angle the SD towards stuff the soldiers need but again it's not 'official' and the training applies to everyone. Some of them moonlight as doormen so it's equally useful there. We train basically for fun though and because we enjoy it. It's by no means military training even though we are in a barracks and most of our students are soldiers.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

We are a military martial arts club by that I mean we are a sports club. the military here don't teach martial arts as part of their training. The Royal Marines do unarmed combat but it's different from martial arts in it's not a sport. The Regimental Police and the Royal Military Police do the usual arrest and restraint training. The Gurkhas however do TKD and although they are quite scary it's still considered as a sport.
We teach TSD, MMA, MT and SD. We do angle the SD towards stuff the soldiers need but again it's not 'official' and the training applies to everyone. Some of them moonlight as doormen so it's equally useful there. We train basically for fun though and because we enjoy it. It's by no means military training even though we are in a barracks and most of our students are soldiers.

Tez the Gurkhas are doing TKD? If so what system ie. ITF, WTF, etc. Also do they militarize it?

 

[Tez3]

Tez the Gurkhas are doing TKD? If so what system ie. ITF, WTF, etc. Also do they militarize it?

I believe it's WTF but I'm not sure, will check though. No it's they don't make it military, it's done as a sport. It's just they manage to be very scary when they are training! You feel they can use it as soldiers though if they need to.

 

[Kenpo17]

It depends on which branch of the military you are in, if you are in the Air Force as a fighter plane pilot you are going to get trained differently than if you are a ground soldier in a battalion.

 

[chinto]

OK, I have known some folks who were in special operations . They all tell me that the men in special operations get training from the military as do most combat troops in unarmed combat. However, they almost to a man as I understand it also take what ever system they like in their off duty time.

they do so for the reason that it may come in handy and save their lives. that said they all say that if they got a gun they will shoot them, or if a bayonet provably use that first. basically if your down to unarmed combat in most, please note the 'MOST' situations, its really dropped in the pot and the situation is completely screwed up !! also not that your chances at that point of survival are provably lousy.

that is what I am told by the people I know who have or do work in special operations units about unarmed combat.

also they think its good that more training is done in it now then say 15 years ago, as it teaches aggression and confidence that will tend to lower casualties in combat situations. they say the troops hesitate less and are more effective. how true? I do not know. but I can see where it could be very true, just as there are less psychological casualty among the physically fit troops in the same unit in a combat situation then among the people who are not well conditioned and physically fit.

 

[Tez3]

Tez the Gurkhas are doing TKD? If so what system ie. ITF, WTF, etc. Also do they militarize it?

There's Gurkhas in the photos on this link from Soldier magazine the official mag of the British Army.it has the other martial arts they do as well on.The comment is general not of the picture.

http://www.soldiermagazine.co.uk/pictures/sport/sportpic1/page5.htm

 

[jks9199]

So JKS,

The fact that I have students that have gone into or are in the FBI, Homeland Security, or were in the active military and or are currently reserve military, been invited to a closed door not authorized training session to help some guys train before a deployment, means that I am not some special titled instructor for the Special Forces of the Police and national security and military?

WOW, I guess being quiet on this was a good thing, and not running around telling everyone I was training the elite special forces.


A few years ago, I was talking to another local instructor, and mentioned that we had a couple of local deputies form the sheriff department trainng with us. He got all mad and wanted to know why they were 1) going behind his back to train in a different system, and 2) how did we get the approval as he only got it after years of working as a Deputy and lobbying for his training course to be offered. (* As you stated it was offered but not required training *)

I had to explain again that what I said was exactly the truth. We had a couple of Deputies that were training with us, Not that we were training the Deputy department. But he heard what he wanted to hear. Which is why I always track down verbal hearsay comments before making up my mind.

But the written claims are much more readily verified.

I was looking for something else, and tripped over this thread and decided I'd bump it up -- and use Rich's post here to do it.

Thought I'd clarify something that I'm pretty sure Rich got -- but might have been a little confusing. The idea of official or certified instructors versus someone who is contracted or brought in to teach something, versus the "teaches a few deputies" types. I'm going to try to use myself, mostly, as an example.

I'm a certified DT instructor, among other instructor credentials. That means I've had training in not only performing, but in teaching DT skills. and that training meets the criteria set forward by the state, I've completed an apprenticeship, and can teach cops and give them official training credit. It doesn't make me a super fighter or anything like that; I wouldn't even compare it being a yellow belt, let alone a black belt, in a formal martial art. Because it's a focused course, for a specific purpose. (It does, arguably, make me something of an expert on use of force...)

We've had guys come in to teach clinics or seminars. In fact, I'd like to bring one in myself, because he's got a really effective, solid knife program. He's not a cop. If he comes down and we teach a seminar on a Saturday, using the academy, with their blessing and permission, that doesn't make it official training. There are a lot more hoops to go through for that; lesson plans must be developed & approved, among other things. Or, as another example, several years back, Dr. Gyi came out and taught a clinic on the military fighting knife (specifically, the K-Bar, but really, it would have worked with any military style combat/utility knife). It was set up in coordination with a young man going through The Basic School at Quantico, and he and several of his classmates there came out for the clinic. It wasn't official military training, no matter how useful they may have found it.

Finally, I've had a few cops come through at my regular club. Sure, I stressed some things with them, but it wasn't DT training. It was a martial arts class, with some applicability to work situations. No DCJS credit, no endorsement by any agency, done on our own time & dime.

My headache with claims comes from people in the second or third category trying to create the impression that they're in the first. Especially when they're using it to try to impress the uneducated masses. At that point, it's kind of comparable to a contractor who can do a few little things with plumbing or electricity screwing a homeowner on a job by saying that he doesn't need to bring in an actually electrician or plumber on a job... It doesn't mean he can't do it, and do it well, but he ain't licensed for the job and often it won't meet code.

 

[Rich Parsons]

I was looking for something else, and tripped over this thread and decided I'd bump it up -- and use Rich's post here to do it.

Thought I'd clarify something that I'm pretty sure Rich got -- but might have been a little confusing. The idea of official or certified instructors versus someone who is contracted or brought in to teach something, versus the "teaches a few deputies" types. I'm going to try to use myself, mostly, as an example.

I'm a certified DT instructor, among other instructor credentials. That means I've had training in not only performing, but in teaching DT skills. and that training meets the criteria set forward by the state, I've completed an apprenticeship, and can teach cops and give them official training credit. It doesn't make me a super fighter or anything like that; I wouldn't even compare it being a yellow belt, let alone a black belt, in a formal martial art. Because it's a focused course, for a specific purpose. (It does, arguably, make me something of an expert on use of force...)

We've had guys come in to teach clinics or seminars. In fact, I'd like to bring one in myself, because he's got a really effective, solid knife program. He's not a cop. If he comes down and we teach a seminar on a Saturday, using the academy, with their blessing and permission, that doesn't make it official training. There are a lot more hoops to go through for that; lesson plans must be developed & approved, among other things. Or, as another example, several years back, Dr. Gyi came out and taught a clinic on the military fighting knife (specifically, the K-Bar, but really, it would have worked with any military style combat/utility knife). It was set up in coordination with a young man going through The Basic School at Quantico, and he and several of his classmates there came out for the clinic. It wasn't official military training, no matter how useful they may have found it.

Finally, I've had a few cops come through at my regular club. Sure, I stressed some things with them, but it wasn't DT training. It was a martial arts class, with some applicability to work situations. No DCJS credit, no endorsement by any agency, done on our own time & dime.

My headache with claims comes from people in the second or third category trying to create the impression that they're in the first. Especially when they're using it to try to impress the uneducated masses. At that point, it's kind of comparable to a contractor who can do a few little things with plumbing or electricity screwing a homeowner on a job by saying that he doesn't need to bring in an actually electrician or plumber on a job... It doesn't mean he can't do it, and do it well, but he ain't licensed for the job and often it won't meet code.

JKS,

A couple of the current correctional / deputies that train off and on with us, also work in the training department or group. One has mentioned bringing me in to work with their instructors. I said I would be glad to assist, and to try to find things to work within their frame work.

I also understand as you stated, that even if this does occur it would be a seminar at a location that also happens to be a location that others train at. I look at it like, if I teach a seminar at a TKD school, it does NOT mean that I know train or teach TKD or that TKD gets it techniques from my teachings. NOTE: TKD used as a referrence point only please do not read anything into the comment.

There is a big difference between those licensed / certified / endorsed by local departments and or the state to teach law enforcement and those that teach a seminar or class that happen to have a targeted class membership.

Peace

 

[Carol]

In general, I'm a bit skeptical when I hear claims about training the military. The government prefers that one stays rather tight lipped with regards to government (including military) business. That's not to say there aren't legit situations out there and legit people. But in general? My level of skepticism is directly proportional to how loud and grandiose the claim is purported to be.

 

[chinto]

I know that several of the dojo's for the styles I study are on military bases on Okinawa. And I know some sensei's who have taught members of the military. I do not know of any of them that go around saying they do train military, even though they do. I would think if they started doing that , they would find they had far fewer military students.

 

[GaryR]

I used to teach for the Military. First simply because I was active duty, and by request I starting teaching on the base, then I was later formerly contracted to do so (civilian contract). I taught people both at home and while deployed. But, hand-2-hand, weapon-2-hand, etc. is only so useful, it should really be a last resort in any modern combat scenario, things are likely near FUBAR if its down to what MA training matters. Situational shooting is a different story, more useful in close quarter combat, which I was not qualified to teach IMO. I taught a good spectrum from spec ops to older people doing tai chi in a racquetball court! Most people trained because they MIGHT (or will in some cases) need it more than the average joe, but more importantly they enjoy doing it, and get whatever out of it they wanted.

regards,

Gary Romel

 

[Cougar]

Completely agree, GaryR. Have been in similar situations several times with various units. With Modern Army Combatives, a lot of the instructors are pulled from local community MA that respond to position announcements and complete the certification process. Chuckled at your FUBAR comment, but it is true. "Combatives are what you use until your buddy with a functioning weapon arrives."