Training like in the old days

[bekkilyn]

I was just reading through that thread that was asking if MMA hurt MA and a couple times I heard comments about how TMA's no longer train like in the old days.

What exactly does this mean?

Barring the McDojos, how did people used to train in TMA compared to now? What's the difference?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I was just reading through that thread that was asking if MMA hurt MA and a couple times I heard comments about how TMA's no longer train like in the old days.

What exactly does this mean?

Barring the McDojos, how did people used to train in TMA compared to now? What's the difference?

There are many differences. The basics, such as having no belt systems or only white and black belts, with nothing in-between. Or having to work as an apprentice and step-and-fetchit for a sensei for a year or so before he'd agree to teach you, to living in the dojo or training center, to MA as a part of your religion as well as physical training...

And then there are practices that have fallen by the wayside because they were too dangerous. Or practices that time has shown were actually injurious to the student to even do them. Or practices based on physical torture that did not have the ultimate purpose of strengthening. Or practices that work, but only if practiced daily for hours, which most people today cannot or will not do.

One example I can give, although I am only a newbie to MA...

My sensei says if people want to work out on a makawara, fine with him. But we don't have one in the dojo and we don't normally do that sort of conditioning. I've seen photos of old-timers with monster 'karate knuckles'. They got them from pounding the makiwara for hours on end, day after day. They also ended up with crippled and nerve-damaged knuckles after decades of this sort of abuse.

Useful to have in a fight? No doubt. But I am not going to spend hours per day pounding a board with my hands or shoving my hands into buckets of sand to gain that benefit. I need my hands to work properly to do the work I do for a living. I have seen Master Shimabuku's photo of where he was driving nails into boards with the palm of his hand. Incredible, but I do not need to do that.

So, there's one 'traditional' training method I have no interest in and I'm glad we don't emphasize it in my dojo.

 

[Andrew Green]

I was just reading through that thread that was asking if MMA hurt MA and a couple times I heard comments about how TMA's no longer train like in the old days.

What exactly does this mean?

Barring the McDojos, how did people used to train in TMA compared to now? What's the difference?

Addition of training equipment, safety gear, sports science, coaching theory, etc.

Really just a "Remember the good old days?" thing, of remembering things in a funny way that makes them seem better then they where.

For a while martial arts in the west was primarily being taught by ex-military, who had learned it while on tour, and trained with other military people. As a result it was perhaps a little rougher, which idealized leads to "more realistic", but that's really not the case. For the most part you had guys with a couple years as a student at best coming back and teaching. They had no knowledge of sports science, little safety equipment and largely no understanding of how to coach people.

What they did have was toughness, and they ran with that. The rest got learned as they went.

There was no kids programs or anything, no "McDojo's". But there was also no cross-training, no books, no videos, no internet, most of the training equipment we take for granted wasn't around. You had the ugly side of things like Count Dante and the Dojo Wars.

There was good, but there was also bad. Nowadays we have more of each, spanning the good to bad scale out farther in both directions.

But the idealized "old days" didn't exist, nostalgia tends to idealize the past and martial artists are no different then anyone else in that regard.

 

[Omar B]

I do agree that the idea of "good old days" is a bit of a stretch. Training hurt more because they did not have safety equipment or their little to no knowledge of sports science led them to teach moments that ultimately wreck the body. I personally like my training tough so I have no problem with that side.

 

[Andrew Green]

Some "hurts" are good, others just do long term damage.

Training should be hard, and it will hurt. But hard and hurting for the sake of being hard and hurting is no good. There needs to be a goal, and it needs to be hard and hurt in a way that is productive, not destructive.

 

[tshadowchaser]

the good old days, well , training hurt.
You came away with bumps and brusies every night, and pads where never used. If you broke an arm you practiced with the cast on and that hurt when you hit someone with it.
Excersises done back then would drop most people out of class on the first day.
Kata was preformed and full force and done over and over and over. You did not learn a new form till the one before it was done correctly for an extended period of time ( maybe a year or so).
Sparring was hard and contact was expected to all parts of the body.
There where no Mcdojo's and if you saw a master you could bet that he realy was one. Grandmasters where few and far between. Oh and there where NO sokes.
Someone mentioned Dojo wars, yes they exsisted. Sometimes they made for harder training and produced better students but many times they destroyed good schools.
The closeing down of schools becase the instructor could not produce legitiment certs. was verry commen, and I still think a good practice.

 

[MJS]

I was just reading through that thread that was asking if MMA hurt MA and a couple times I heard comments about how TMA's no longer train like in the old days.

What exactly does this mean?

Barring the McDojos, how did people used to train in TMA compared to now? What's the difference?

I"d say here are some big differences:

1) Classes contained people who were there for the sole purpose of training HARD. If you were there for social networking, to meet new friends or anything other than giving 110% as well as blood, sweat and tears, you probably wouldn't last too long.

2) No fear of lawsuits. From what I've read about some of the old schools, there wasn't a lawyer camping out at the front door. If you got banged up, busted up it was no big deal. As I've read the late Sijo Emperado say..."The workouts not over until there's blood on the floor" and apparently many times there was.

3) Fewer belt ranks. The focus was on the training, not keeping up with the guy who started at the same time you did.

4) Probably didn't have all the people running around like you see today, with 10 8th degree black belts in 10 different arts. The time between all ranks was most likely at the teachers discretion, not the student running up and asking when he was going to be promoted or getting an honorary rank.

 

[just2kicku]

I was just reading through that thread that was asking if MMA hurt MA and a couple times I heard comments about how TMA's no longer train like in the old days.

What exactly does this mean?

Barring the McDojos, how did people used to train in TMA compared to now? What's the difference?

Taking the physical punishment out of the equation, the simple fact is that in this day and age, nobody wants to train like that anymore.

How many new, and even old students, are willing to warm up for a half hour, work on a couple basic foot movements over and over for an hour, then go over a part of a pinian (kata) for another hour. MA has become a hobby for many.

When I first started my journey back in Hawaii in '75, training was hard and that is what we did every single night. There were only two kids in that class, me and my cousin and we were shown no special treatment for our age. My uncle wanted us to get busted up, and lumped up we got. He also belived in punching concrete endless number of times every night, no thanks.

I would hear stories my dad told me about Sijo kicking him in the groin so hard it knocked him out, guess I'm lucky I'm even here!

And like tshadowchaser said about dojo wars, people would get busted up and schools shut down.

When I remember the good old days, I do appreciate the way I trained back then. But I would not subject anyone in our dojo to train like that today. Although I do wish they would commit more to training harder, I guess it is what it is.

I still think that the mjority of people these days in the MA's is too soft, but I also think society as a whole has gotten too soft.

 

[xJOHNx]

All the MA's that I have done over the years still had an emphasis on training hard. Much as you describe it: warming up, doing kata and learning some new moves.

But the difference is that while training hard, I'm also taught to train smart. Making sure my partner doesn't have to show up at the emergencyward 3 times a week because I busted his nose again. Because a good uki/tori relationship is critical for both to advance in the art.

If you train hard without being respectfull to the guy/girl who is receiving you might end up with someone who is just executing his stuff making sure that he isn't too badly damaged in the end. i.e. avoiding certain steps. Both end up with half good techniques. Because enduring is also a part of the learning proces.

The main reason why people stopped training hard in my eyes is because of bully behavior. This is the reason why I stopped doing Muay Thai and switched to other styles in the first place.

I can't speak for my art, as I'm still a white belt (probably for a long time), but I follow my sensei philosophy and that is that your train for life. So that you can still execute your moves when you are 70.
Try doing that when you have multiple bodily functions who can't perform to the maximum anymore.

Hopes this makes some sense.

 

[Xue Sheng]

You trained, you got hurt and no one got sued and you still had fun and had a lot of respect for those you trained with and under.

Belts were not given away because it was fair or politically correct and you were not allowed to test just because your friends were testing if you were not ready and the deciding factor on being ready was your teacher. HEY and no test fees, it was all part of your monthly fee you paid and you know what else…if you passed your test… and you didn’t always pass your test… they gave you the belt… they didn’t make you pay for it since in the eyes of your teacher…you earned it.

You sparred a lot and protective gear was no were to be found

My Jujitsu class had no floor pads, just a carpet and we wore no protective gear, yes punches were “suppose” to be pulled or half power but I got the bruises, knee injuries and black eyes to prove they were not from time to time and likely gave a few too… but you can’t pull a throw or take down and you can’t use half power so even if strikes and kicks are pulled or done at half power you will still learn how to fall properly or get hurt a lot learning. And TKD; you did not get thrown to the floor as much in TKD so the floor was a linoleum floor. But don’t fool yourself, TKD pre-Olympic, you did get throw to the floor from time to time and linoleum is rather hard… and you got hurt.

But if (and this has already been mentioned) if you decided you were a tough guy and started intentionally hurting others or bullying others you were about to meet the end of the class with a sparing session with you sensei, I saw this in Jujitsu a few times. Or a senior student might intervene and ask to have a friendly spar and what I am amazed at is in those matches the only thing that seemed to get hurt was the bullies ego and if he/she did not learn their lesson from this…they were told to leave and again no lawyers were involved. Basically “respect” was important. And bragging, bullying being a jerk did not really go over to well.

No extra curricular classes, seminars, written reports necessary if your sensei, Sifu or whatever you called him/her couldn’t teach you what you needed to know they WHY go train with him/her. And if he/she could not figure out what type of person you were from training you and needed a report to cover it or couldn’t figure out what you know by talking with you and needed a report to cover it…WHAT THEY HECK ARE THEY DOING THERE. But you could not get your black belt until you were 18 in jujitsu and in TKD the youngest Black belt I can remember was 18 years old as well but I do not remember if there was an age requirement there or not

And if you decided to go off and say HEY I have invented a new style and I am the 27 Dan grand imperial poobah of that style, all bow before me, you better either expect at some point someone was going to call you on it or your last teacher might show up with a few interesting questions or the MA community will be making a whole lot of comments on your lack of skill….and guess what…no lawyers need be involved. BUt all ended the same, you were not in business long if you were fake. And it seemed to prevent a lot of McDojos, Bogus and fake styles masters (no touch knockout, combat qi, Ultimate Wing Do ChunFu Eskrimaquan Ryu, etc.) from popping up and training people to do bad martial arts while making a whole lot of money doing it. Overall there were more good schools than bad ones but then there were fewer schools overall.

Classes were an hour…more or less….usually more.

Would I go out and train Jujitsu like I did over 30 years ago? Hell no I got a family to support and a job that I kind of need to show up to so I can support them. If my kids go into MA I don’t want them to train like that either but then I am the ultimate-over-protective dad so that is not all that surprising to me that I don’t want them to go through it.

Now if someone wants to believe you train like we did or as hard as we did 20 and 30 years ago that is just fine, some do, however most don’t (sloppy forms, sloppy tech, and a never really been hit inability to fight thier way out of a wet paper bag). But a lot of the Sports MAs and RSBDs (the real ones, there are fakes here to) that us TCMA people make fun of or look down upon do, but again I am sure due to the popularity of the sport MAs that a few of them don’t as well. What it becomes to me is an old Chinese martial arts argument between internal and external CMA styles; “Internals are so superior to Externals that if I, as an internal practitioner were to lower my standards and fight the lowly external guy I would most certainly destroy him and I do not want to hurt him”. Here is the thing about that, historically is has been said that this was a GREAT way for a guy with low level martial skill to come off superior and avoid the fight. Sadly I have heard this same thing said by a Taiji person I once did Tuishou with years ago (I am taiji too by the way) and he was absolutely horrible and when I tried to talk to him about it he got rather indignant and stated “I don’t DO martial arts I DO taiji” and he walked out feeling superior. But truth be known I honestly hope he was never required to prove that because he would have gotten very hurt very fast.

Lastly there has been a lot of this type of discussion on MT and I don’t generally like saying the following but… use the search function and you will find it.

as an example more on this here

Oh and one last thing, that has also already been mentioned; Belt Ranks. Jujitsu had white, green brown and black. TKD had white, yellow, green brown and black


I’m out

Enjoy your training.