Training half of martial arts bugs me.

[dvcochran]

No but it puts ownus on the fridge maker to produce a product that will probably work.

Self defense never has to work.

This gets into the heart of the differences in producing a product and offering a service.

The product will always be more repeatable because it is possible to control the variables. That is the manufacturers goal. But variables and unexpected results do exist. In the refrigerator analogy, typically several of the parts that go into the unit are manufactured somewhere else and shipped to the build/assembly facility. In the best quality controlled processes 'sheet happens' and a minor flaw in one part becomes a major flaw for the whole product. The percentage of error would be directly proportional to the QC throughout the supply chain (aka unit cost). There is very little ambiguity in the entire process. One of the main goals in manufacturing is to reduce or eliminate human error.

In a Service their are dependencies that are so broad and varying they are near impossible to track and control. The product Users are as diverse as can be imagined thus things like 'results' can be very hard to measure and specific to the user. Most services are dynamic so there are very many markers that would have to be measured. And even the markers would have to be scalar since the users are also scalar.
So, what I see in large is that most MMA service users measure value through competition and video(?) evidence. Most of the common martial arts users measure value using a broader set of rules. Effectiveness is measured in similar ways however. Resistance training and sparring and/or competition is used in every style I have experience with. Video proof, not so much.

I do expect that to change, largely because of the ease of making video and the effects of the pandemic and the way it is forcing people to change how they train. Video and distance training will be more prevalent, at least for a time.

I expect this will not be considered evidence to you however. Is the only way you see your product working is winning a match?

 

[Steve]

What the actual hell was that, Steve?

What other kind of guarantee could there be? Of course, that's hyperbolic. The real response would be, "I'm sorry. If only you had attended that anti-rape seminar." We all know that a martial arts school is never going to refund a month's tuition because someone failed to defend him or herself.

Look. Don't get me wrong, guys. I think you have this impression that I go out and picket self defense schools or something. Certainly not the case. I just think that "self defense" in a martial arts school is like the "wellness" tab on GOOP. Most people just intuitively understand that it's all placebo, pseudo science, hope, and faith. Most people are naturally skeptical that a jade or quartz vaginal egg won't balance hormones, regulate menstrual cycles, prevent uterine prolapse, and increase bladder control. Or that a blend of essential oils meant to be taken orally or added to bathwater, could help prevent depression.

Now, like self defense training, most of what GOOP sells is largely benign. But also like self defense training, every once in awhile, it skirts up against things that will hurt people. The difference is that consumers have no real recourse for self defense training. GOOP gets into trouble when they overstep and actually make claims like the ones above. Self defense schools have perfected the con. If you train in self defense, you are either proof that it works (if you survive) or unlucky (if you don't). If you do not train in self defense, you are either lucky (if you survive) or should train in self defense (if you don't).

Now, I don't go out and picket GOOP HQ or anything. But I don't think my opinions about GOOP are unreasonable. In fact, I think my opinions about GOOP are considered common knowledge... even obvious to most people. My opinions about self defense are virtually the same as for GOOP, for the same reasons. The difference is that here, it's like talking to a group of folks, some of whom are huge advocates of the vaginal egg, and some who even work for GOOP.

 

[Steve]

I assure you I am not lashing out. Trying to counter your instant negativity? Yes.
I am trying to understand you atypical attitude toward all things business/product related. In your context, it is as though all consumers (aka everyone) are doomed. Whether it is joining a martial arts program or buying a refrigerator. No one can follow your logic and live a happy life.

You're doomed. DOOOOMED! As I said above, there are snake oil salesmen all over the place. What do you guys think about all of the fraudulent coronavirus products out there now?

Fraudulent COVID-19 Products

49 products being sold. Is it unreasonable to view these companies as shady? Is it doomy and gloomy to recognize that they are selling things like quicksilver serum (whatever that really is) as a cure for covid-19? I don't think so. In fact, I think the opposite is true, and that educating the public about these things is the right thing to do. That's why we have bodies like the FDA.

The functional difference here is that martial arts as a community has no regulatory oversight like GOOP or these other snake oil salesmen. Doesn't mean there isn't any snake oil being sold.

 

[Steve]

So, cut to the chase. What are you arguing for/about. What exactly is it that you want?

This is an odd question. I don't want anything. I'm having a discussion on a martial arts forum about self defense training.

You know, I take that back. I think it would great if martial arts schools just struck the phrase "self defense" from their advertising and marketing. It would be more honest, I think. Instead, focus on the fitness elements, the cultural elements, or whatever is actually being learned and developed.

I don't think there's anything wrong with selling vaginal eggs, either. I just think it's more honest to avoid claims that are unsubstantiated.

Earlier, when you said you tell people up front who attend your seminars that they probably wouldn't learn anything... I wasn't kidding when I said that's a great gig. But hey, at least it's up front.

Mostly, though, this is a philosophical discussion about martial arts. I really don't expect anything to change. Though, I'm optimistic in your case, that you'll come around eventually. You'll get there. Unless you don't.

 

[Steve]

This is where your argument(s) get so broad and circular it is obvious you just want to argue ad nauseum.
I will ask you again; define self defense and it's training. Define amateur and professional. Define your idea of a self defense scenario and how/what you use as defense. Define how MA training, any training does not or would not help. Do not be stereotypical, be real.

Okay. Here's the thing. I've answered these questions, and even provided links to a self defense program I think is terrific. In this thread. But I won't rehash it again, because the next play in your book is to say I'm being repetitive and circular. And then I'm stating the obvious and what I'm saying is common sense. Then it's ridiculous. And then you ask me to define things for you again.

Regarding defining amateur and professional. I'm shocked that you don't understand what those two words mean.

 

[jobo]

What other kind of guarantee could there be? Of course, that's hyperbolic. The real response would be, "I'm sorry. If only you had attended that anti-rape seminar." We all know that a martial arts school is never going to refund a month's tuition because someone failed to defend him or herself.

Look. Don't get me wrong, guys. I think you have this impression that I go out and picket self defense schools or something. Certainly not the case. I just think that "self defense" in a martial arts school is like the "wellness" tab on GOOP. Most people just intuitively understand that it's all placebo, pseudo science, hope, and faith. Most people are naturally skeptical that a jade or quartz vaginal egg won't balance hormones, regulate menstrual cycles, prevent uterine prolapse, and increase bladder control. Or that a blend of essential oils meant to be taken orally or added to bathwater, could help prevent depression.

Now, like self defense training, most of what GOOP sells is largely benign. But also like self defense training, every once in awhile, it skirts up against things that will hurt people. The difference is that consumers have no real recourse for self defense training. GOOP gets into trouble when they overstep and actually make claims like the ones above. Self defense schools have perfected the con. If you train in self defense, you are either proof that it works (if you survive) or unlucky (if you don't). If you do not train in self defense, you are either lucky (if you survive) or should train in self defense (if you don't).

Now, I don't go out and picket GOOP HQ or anything. But I don't think my opinions about GOOP are unreasonable. In fact, I think my opinions about GOOP are considered common knowledge... even obvious to most people. My opinions about self defense are virtually the same as for GOOP, for the same reasons. The difference is that here, it's like talking to a group of folks, some of whom are huge advocates of the vaginal egg, and some who even work for GOOP.

THIS IS THE THIRD TIME IVE ASKED YOU WHAT EVIDENCE YOU WOULD ACCEPT THAT MY SELF DEFENCE TRAINING IS EFFECTIVE,

your refusing to answer as it will show the holes in your argument.

you cant give guarantees on someones ability to learn a skill and use it effectively.

i took guitar lesion he told me in three months id be good enough to cut a record, i wasnt, that not his fault, i just dont have the aptitude for music.

even if you set a high entry requirement there are still no guarantees, every year hundreds of very skilled kids go into football academies to have the best coaching, only the smallest % of these reach the level required to be a professional, thats a 90 odd % failure rate. but no one is accusing them of being incompetent coaches or snake oil sales men

the other question ive asked which you wont answer, is how have you verified the training your taken is effective at self defence ? if you were unfortunately subject to a rape, would you go back to your instructor and blame them for you being subject to an horrendous crime ?

there is an enormous duel standard being applied here by you

 

[Steve]

THIS IS THE THIRD TIME IVE ASKED YOU WHAT EVIDENCE YOU WOULD ACCEPT THAT MY SELF DEFENCE TRAINING IS EFFECTIVE,

your refusing to answer as it will show the holes in your argument.

you cant give guarantees on someones ability to learn a skill and use it effectively.

i took guitar lesion he told me in three months id be good enough to cut a record, i wasnt, that not his fault, i just dont have the aptitude for music.

even if you set a high entry requirement there are still no guarantees, every year hundreds of very skilled kids go into football academies to have the best coaching, only the smallest % of these reach the level required to be a professional, thats a 90 odd % failure rate. but no one is accusing them of being incompetent coaches or snake oil sales men

the other question ive asked which you wont answer, is how have you verified the training your taken is effective at self defence ? if you were unfortunately subject to a rape, would you go back to your instructor and blame them for you being subject to an horrendous crime ?

there is an enormous duel standard being applied here by you

Easy cowboy. No reason to get worked up. No one's ignoring you.

Are you asking about evidence that your training program works or that your individual skills are effective? Because they're two different things.

You mention music. My kids have all done the elementary school band/orchestra thing, as literally thousands and thousands of kids do in America. Some kids have a lot of aptitude. Some kids have zero aptitude. Funny... after a year, they all get better and they all play music by the end of the year. How can we tell? Well, it's easy. Just like how you can tell that kids are getting better at playing football or soccer.

So, regarding self defense, I think the term is too vague to really gauge individual skill. You'd have to demonstrate skills that are complimentary, and explain how it relates and in what context.

At a higher level, the only real way to evaluate the effectiveness of a program is through data. That said, when you look at statistics, there is no "self defense" category. You can, however, create a program that is specific and measurable, and I've posted a link to the one good example I've seen of that. It's possible.

My comment early about someone being raped was regarding the complete lack of accountability within self defense training. Like GOOP wellness products, self defense training can run the gamut from totally ineffective to questionable but benign to dangerously misguided. And if you lack any external validation, it's a short trip from fooling yourself into thinking something works to finding yourself in the ER with a vaginal egg stuck up your wahoo.

 

[jobo]

Easy cowboy. No reason to get worked up. No one's ignoring you.

Are you asking about evidence that your training program works or that your individual skills are effective? Because they're two different things.

You mention music. My kids have all done the elementary school band/orchestra thing, as literally thousands and thousands of kids do in America. Some kids have a lot of aptitude. Some kids have zero aptitude. Funny... after a year, they all get better and they all play music by the end of the year. How can we tell? Well, it's easy. Just like how you can tell that kids are getting better at playing football or soccer.

So, regarding self defense, I think the term is too vague to really gauge individual skill. You'd have to demonstrate skills that are complimentary, and explain how it relates and in what context.

At a higher level, the only real way to evaluate the effectiveness of a program is through data. That said, when you look at statistics, there is no "self defense" category. You can, however, create a program that is specific and measurable, and I've posted a link to the one good example I've seen of that. It's possible.

My comment early about someone being raped was regarding the complete lack of accountability within self defense training. Like GOOP wellness products, self defense training can run the gamut from totally ineffective to questionable but benign to dangerously misguided. And if you lack any external validation, it's a short trip from fooling yourself into thinking something works to finding yourself in the ER with a vaginal egg stuck up your wahoo.

well now youve recognised the question, though it took three attempts and a lo of capitals to at least get that response

you are now however just being evasive, its a very simple question which if you had actually consider the case your making you would have a ready answer to

lets recap, you have said a lot of uncomplimentary things about classes marketed as self defence, and some very nasty things about people who attend such classes, along the lines of them all being paranoid, insecure gullible fools

so i attend such a class, i and most of the others there do so to learn/enhance our self defence skills, so we are right in the cross hairs of your diatribe

i believe after due consideration that both myself and others who have stuck it out for a while have greatly enhanced skills. you it seems are very sceptical that that is possible.

so what evidence do you required, that that is so, in the specific or even possible in the general

allowing that their is no sport out let to refer to and to my knowledge the only one of the group who has been attacked in that time is myself and this wasn't caught on camera. of course the lack of attacks could in its self be a result of the training, but that is indeed impossible to quantify

a succinct answer rather than a load of evasive waffle would be appreciated

 

[drop bear]

This gets into the heart of the differences in producing a product and offering a service.

The product will always be more repeatable because it is possible to control the variables. That is the manufacturers goal. But variables and unexpected results do exist. In the refrigerator analogy, typically several of the parts that go into the unit are manufactured somewhere else and shipped to the build/assembly facility. In the best quality controlled processes 'sheet happens' and a minor flaw in one part becomes a major flaw for the whole product. The percentage of error would be directly proportional to the QC throughout the supply chain (aka unit cost). There is very little ambiguity in the entire process. One of the main goals in manufacturing is to reduce or eliminate human error.

In a Service their are dependencies that are so broad and varying they are near impossible to track and control. The product Users are as diverse as can be imagined thus things like 'results' can be very hard to measure and specific to the user. Most services are dynamic so there are very many markers that would have to be measured. And even the markers would have to be scalar since the users are also scalar.
So, what I see in large is that most MMA service users measure value through competition and video(?) evidence. Most of the common martial arts users measure value using a broader set of rules. Effectiveness is measured in similar ways however. Resistance training and sparring and/or competition is used in every style I have experience with. Video proof, not so much.

I do expect that to change, largely because of the ease of making video and the effects of the pandemic and the way it is forcing people to change how they train. Video and distance training will be more prevalent, at least for a time.

I expect this will not be considered evidence to you however. Is the only way you see your product working is winning a match?

Steve actually presented a system to qualify instructional service.

Sparring is quantifiable. We can know sparring at the pro class at tiger muay thai or alpha male is good and has quality guys. And that sparring there would be an example of evidence without needing competition.

But you choose not to quantify your sparring and still expect it to hold up to scrutiny. And then expect people to take your claims of "sparring" seriously.

The more vague you make you own set of standards the more your argument that a student should somehow know the difference between quality training and straight up rubbish erodes itself.

 

[drop bear]

No, I don't think I've ever heard a self-defense-oriented place claim they don't have to produce results. Some probably don't, but I've never heard that claim made by them. I think your analogy is backwards if that was your point.

Then those self defense schools are lying.

(Actually dovocran said that he may not produce any results on this thread when he does a short course.)

 

[drop bear]

Mostly, they watch classes or attend a few to see if it's what they want. They get to see (and experience, if they choose) my teaching approach that way. It's much more informative than a few videos would ever be. Most also have training in other arts, so are well equipped to make that decision. Mostly, folks from Australia seem to have a hard time finding information on my training approach, but they rarely come by to watch classes and quite literally never sign up for training, so it seems a non-issue.

Yeah so long as enough people are convinced by the marketing to support the service then it justifies the method.

Do you guys have Danos direct over there?

 

[drop bear]

You're still drawing a distinction between self-defense fighting skill and fighting skill. They're not that different.

If I enter competitions with no fighting skill I will get to a level where I get beaten up. And we can put a gauge on my fighting skill. If I train a bunch of guys and they enter competitions they can put a gauge on my training skills.

And we can see at a glance if a school is going to produce a fighting skill or not and to what degree.

If I learn self defense as a fighting skill there no point at which my level of fighting skill matters. There is no point which the instructor level of fighting skill matters and there is no point which anybody in that rooms fighting skill matters.

Because results don't matter.

And results don't matter because there is some sort of difference in training a person for self defense or competition. But because self defense instructors conceal their ability and conceal the ability of their students.

And they do this by saying things like "we spar" and then just sort of wait for people to just accept that.

 

[drop bear]

And while I am thinking of it. This is something that isn't really mentioned when people are saying that this coming to the gym and get a guage that way. Or when people say we do sparring or resisted drills.

(Combat scenarios are the worst of this idea but hasn't been used recently)

If I had the choice between fedors gym and Johnson's gym.

I would probably appear to progress a lot faster in Johnson gym. (Start taking guys down earlier, start winning spars or wrestles quicker) than Fedors.

But I am basing that on perception not empirical evidence.

And is the conformation bias people go on about.

 

[jobo]

Steve actually presented a system to qualify instructional service.

Sparring is quantifiable. We can know sparring at the pro class at tiger muay thai or alpha male is good and has quality guys. And that sparring there would be an example of evidence without needing competition.

But you choose not to quantify your sparring and still expect it to hold up to scrutiny. And then expect people to take your claims of "sparring" seriously.

The more vague you make you own set of standards the more your argument that a student should somehow know the difference between quality training and straight up rubbish erodes itself.

if i went sparing at the pro class and as seems inevitable get smash about to the extent i cant walk for a month or two

that will a) greatly hamper my ability to defend myself in a street altercation, which is you must admit some what counter productive to the intended goal of increasing my effectiveness in a street altercation

ans b) has no bearing at all on if i can beat the arrogant !!!! with the pit bull up or not in any altercation with an arrogant !!!! with a pit bull, who is not very likely to be a pro class fighter what with his weight issues and drug addiction and likening for drinking strong larger on park benches

you've not thought this through, have you

not once in my long history of altercations have i ever been in a fight with a pro class fighter, im not sure ive ever been in the same post code as one, i do some times see some Manchester united players jogging round the woods, but im not getting to a fight with a pro footballer either, they are a bit fit, so i dont tell them they were !!!! last Saturday

 

[drop bear]

if i went sparing at the pro class and as seems inevitable get smash about to the extent i cant walk for a month or two

that will a) greatly hamper my ability to defend myself in a street altercation, which is you must admit some what counter productive to the intended goal of increasing my effectiveness in a street altercation

ans b) has no bearing at all on if i can beat the arrogant !!!! with the pit bull up or not in any alternation with an arrogant !!!! with a pit bull, who is not very likely to be a pro class fighter what with his weight issues and drug addiction and likening for drinking strong larger on park benches

you've not thought this through, have you

not once in my long history of altercations have i ever been in a fight with a pro class fighter, im not sure ive ever been in the same post code as one

Yeah. Because in self defense, results don't matter. So long as you can beat up Johnny drunk our work here is done.

But then whatever you do don't say pro fighters have a better training program. Because. All styles are equal. And we can't judge a system by competition results.

 

[jobo]

Yeah. Because in self defense, results don't matter. So long as you can beat up Johnny drunk our work here is done.

But then whatever you do don't say pro fighters have a better training program. Because. All styles are equal. And we can't judge a system by competition results.

in self defence the only result that matters is the last one, and if that was knob head then that indeed is a successful outcome that proves the training system

im sure we have had this talk before, the number of belligerent knob heads round here out number the pro class fighters many thousands to one

im willing to bet that my chances of being attacked by A MT pro on my way back from the chip shop are some what less than a lottery win

added to which going into spar with said MT pro will only end very badly for me

there is no sense at all in getting beaten up to try and lessen the chances of me being beaten up by some one who almost certainly wont attack me in the first place

 

[drop bear]

in self defence the only result that matters is the last one, and if that was knob head then that indeed is a successful outcome that proves the training system

im sure we have had this talk before, the number of belligerent knob heads round here out number the pro class fighters many thousands to one

im willing to bet that my chances of being attacked by A MT pro on my way back from the chip shop are some what less than a lottery win

added to which going into spar with said MT pro will only end very badly for me

there is no sense at all in getting beaten up to try and lessen the chances of me being beaten up by some one who almost certainly wont attack me in the first place

Yeah. Self defense training isn't very good but you will probably never really need it is kind of a terrible argument for self defense training.

It isn't a bad argument for not bothering to train at all.

But unfortunately I know about 10 guys in my area who either are pro fighters or at about the standard of one, because I train with them. So I am not sure how much that argument really holds water.

But regardless of that if your desire to do a standard of martial arts that isn't very good. At least you should know it isn't good. And it isn't cool for martial arts to disguise that fact from you.

And yes we had this discussion before.

 

[dvcochran]

Steve actually presented a system to qualify instructional service.

Sparring is quantifiable. We can know sparring at the pro class at tiger muay thai or alpha male is good and has quality guys. And that sparring there would be an example of evidence without needing competition.

But you choose not to quantify your sparring and still expect it to hold up to scrutiny. And then expect people to take your claims of "sparring" seriously.

The more vague you make you own set of standards the more your argument that a student should somehow know the difference between quality training and straight up rubbish erodes itself.

Who ever said I do not quantify my sparring? Just the MMA junkies I suppose.

 

[dvcochran]

Steve actually presented a system to qualify instructional service.

Sparring is quantifiable. We can know sparring at the pro class at tiger muay thai or alpha male is good and has quality guys. And that sparring there would be an example of evidence without needing competition.

But you choose not to quantify your sparring and still expect it to hold up to scrutiny. And then expect people to take your claims of "sparring" seriously.

The more vague you make you own set of standards the more your argument that a student should somehow know the difference between quality training and straight up rubbish erodes itself.

Listing a couple of credible sources in no way quantifies all sources. This competition thing has blinded you to the reality that there are multiple ways to become conversant and test your skills.

 

[dvcochran]

This is an odd question. I don't want anything. I'm having a discussion on a martial arts forum about self defense training.

You know, I take that back. I think it would great if martial arts schools just struck the phrase "self defense" from their advertising and marketing. It would be more honest, I think. Instead, focus on the fitness elements, the cultural elements, or whatever is actually being learned and developed.

I don't think there's anything wrong with selling vaginal eggs, either. I just think it's more honest to avoid claims that are unsubstantiated.

Earlier, when you said you tell people up front who attend your seminars that they probably wouldn't learn anything... I wasn't kidding when I said that's a great gig. But hey, at least it's up front.

Mostly, though, this is a philosophical discussion about martial arts. I really don't expect anything to change. Though, I'm optimistic in your case, that you'll come around eventually. You'll get there. Unless you don't.

Yea, in your case that sounds doubtful.