Training half of martial arts bugs me.

[dvcochran]

Also no.

I anticipated such a response.
I am an engineer with two Masters degrees and multi business owner (I know, la-di-da). Pretty much a full on nerd in the aspects of discovery. I have to use SM in my work all the time. I am probably the most obsessed person you will meet when it comes to finding 'concrete' evidence. Although I imagine you would give me a good race.

History has countless examples of things/methods/products that had been 'proven' to be the best for a given purpose, only to find it was full of flaws. Mercury, radiation, tobacco, cocaine are just a few that come to mind. For a time, they were all miracle cures.

Granted, not as much in this day and age but some choices are made because of a lack of choices. Just real world stuff. I would say more often a choice is made based on the aggregate of circumstances. I will try to make up a scenario: You are on a job digging a shallow well several miles away from any resources. Your main tool breaks close to finishing the job. You have other tools that can finish the job but will require a lot of extra work. What do you do? Delay a day or two to get the correct tool or add labor cost and time to the job? And these kinds of 'what ifs' go much deeper and go on and on in the real world.

On paper we can all set back and look at problem, scenario, or product in the best case and say "this is what I would do" but that is so far from practical.
So, in regards to MA's I don't know how any of us can arbitrarily call a school/instructor/teacher/style bad without spending some time with it/them.

 

[Steve]

they dont guarantee that a fridge will work, they guarantee they will replace it with another one if it doesn't, that must be obvious, appliances under warrantee break down all the time

This is stupid. You can open a fridge and feel the cold air. You can put meat in the fridge and leave meat out of the fridge and see that the meat inside the fridge stays good for longer. You don't need to know how a fridge works to know that a fridge works. But what if someone tries to sell you something called a fludge? They say it works just like a fridge, but doesn't use any energy and doesn't need to keep food cold. Oh and you can't put any food in it. But if you did, it would stay fresh, just like a fridge. Trust us.

That's self defense training.

 

[dvcochran]

No. It isn't anecdotal or opinion. I could video my fridge. I could get an independent witness. I could even video my fridge keeping things cold for the next year. There are thousands of the same brand of fridge behaving I the same way for the same reason.

It is the opposite of "it works for me"

True enough and I totally agree with the logic. But there is always a few that fail in short order. So the logic is not flawless, just the best we have.

 

[dvcochran]

No.

Why?

 

[jobo]

This is stupid. You can open a fridge and feel the cold air. You can put meat in the fridge and leave meat out of the fridge and see that the meat inside the fridge stays good for longer. You don't need to know how a fridge works to know that a fridge works. But what if someone tries to sell you something called a fludge? They say it works just like a fridge, but doesn't use any energy and doesn't need to keep food cold. Oh and you can't out any food in it. But if you did, it would stay fresh, just like a fridge.

so its simply evidence by demonstration, it works because ive seen it work ?

so then my MA works as ive seen it work, just like my fridge works today, nether may work next week !

nb you can easily build a fluge that keeps thinks cool with out using any energy, other than free energy from the sun, thats how they made icecream before the invention of electricity, a i build one to keep my beer cool whilst camping, it does however require that you are aware of latent heat exchange

and of course cellars have much the same temp as a fridge, hence people keep wine in them and food in the old days. someone selling you either as an energy free cooling device isnt lying

 

[Steve]

so its simply evidence by demonstration, it works because ive seen it work ?

so then my MA works as ive seen it work, just like my fridge works today, nether may work next week !

nb you can easily build a fluge that keeps thinks cool with out using any energy, other than free energy from the sun, thats how they made icecream before the invention of electricity, i build one to keep my beer cool whilst camping

and of course cellars have much the same temp as a fridge, hence people keep wine in them

Kind of the opposite. It's about being repeatable, and about the context. I can see plenty of evidence that fridges work. I can also see that my fridge works. I can also make my fridge work by using my fridge. And through daily use, I can honestly say that I'm an expert at using my fridge. I know how to keep the veggies fresh and the fruit fresh, and how to make my cilantro last a good week, if needed. But I couldn't buy a fridge in Europe and plug it into my wall outlet in America, because even though fridges work in general, and European fridges work in Europe, and even this specific unit I have would work for someone else, it doesn't work for me here. Self defense training is kind of like being that person, sold a 220 v fridge in a 110v environment. The salesman just says, "Hey, it's a good fridge. A great fridge. Keep it, and when you need it, plug it in and it will work. I promise. Look. Here's an adapter that makes the plug look just like those other ones."

 

[jobo]

Kind of the opposite. It's about being repeatable, and about the context. I can see plenty of evidence that fridges work. I can also see that my fridge works. I can also make my fridge work by using my fridge. And through daily use, I can honestly say that I'm an expert at using my fridge. I know how to keep the veggies fresh and the fruit fresh, and how to make my cilantro last a good week, if needed. But I couldn't buy a fridge in Europe and plug it into my wall outlet in America, because even though fridges work in general, and European fridges work in Europe, and even this specific unit I have would work for someone else, it doesn't work for me here. Self defense training is kind of like being that person, sold a 220 v fridge in a 110v environment. The salesman just says, "Hey, it's a good fridge. A great fridge. Keep it, and when you need it, plug it in and it will work. I promise. Look. Here's an adapter that makes the plug look just like those other ones."

so then the question i asked above which you ignored, what evidence do you require that my MA works for self defence.

the physics of it works, just like the physics of a fridge work, both may break down.

i know it works as ive seen it work, just like youve seen your fridge work, how do i prove that to you, if we shared a town i could pop round and do some friendly sparing and have a cold beer from your fridge, easy demonstrated, but we are a few thousand miles apart and lets be equal about this how are you going to prove your ma is better ?

 

[skribs]

Kind of the opposite. It's about being repeatable, and about the context. I can see plenty of evidence that fridges work. I can also see that my fridge works. I can also make my fridge work by using my fridge. And through daily use, I can honestly say that I'm an expert at using my fridge. I know how to keep the veggies fresh and the fruit fresh, and how to make my cilantro last a good week, if needed. But I couldn't buy a fridge in Europe and plug it into my wall outlet in America, because even though fridges work in general, and European fridges work in Europe, and even this specific unit I have would work for someone else, it doesn't work for me here. Self defense training is kind of like being that person, sold a 220 v fridge in a 110v environment. The salesman just says, "Hey, it's a good fridge. A great fridge. Keep it, and when you need it, plug it in and it will work. I promise. Look. Here's an adapter that makes the plug look just like those other ones."

That's...generally how buying appliances works. I don't think an appliance shop can afford to keep stock on the floor for a few weeks while you test the equipment to make sure it works.

 

[isshinryuronin]

These kinds of discussions are not practical. Too many variables. What if this fridge will keep dairy cold, but not veggies? This is a more realistic scenario.. One's self-defense may work against one fighting style, but not another. Once I beat a top champion. Was I more skilled than him? No way. But I just happen to have the right key for his particular lock, at least on that day.

Along the same lines, from actual experience: I had an extreme chronic cramp in my right thigh, almost to the point of crippling me. This torture continued for several weeks. I went to an orthopedic doctor, another guy who was a specialist in something, some other doctor, a chiropractor, got an Xray and had some other very expensive tests. Nobody could find anything or help me in any way. But at least I found out what I didn't have. I finally got to a physical therapist and after 10 minutes she diagnosed the problem. Getting an elbow digging in just above my butt, in 20 minutes I was cured!!! Weeks of pain - gone. Now, was this PT more educated, more skilled, had better resources than the others I saw? Overall, no. But this particular therapist had the answer to my specific problem (plus, she was very attractive.)

Going back to the original topic, some SD courses are commercial crap. At the best, they can teach some basic technique and strategy/tactics and even give some self confidence (which may not be backed up by actual skill, but the way one carries themselves can sometimes forestall an attack.) Of course it's up to the individual to put all this in play. Not everyone has the desire or will to devote years to train in MA. So, I don't condemn all short term SD programs. All it takes is one good eye poke. But, caveat emptor.





​

 

[drop bear]

Why?

Why are healing crystals and cancer medication both a matter of personal opinion?

Kind of similar to the fridge conversation if we added a unicorn and then tried to compare their ability to keep things cold.

 

[drop bear]

True enough and I totally agree with the logic. But there is always a few that fail in short order. So the logic is not flawless, just the best we have.

It doesn't have to be flawless. That is this weird argument people make that lets say you use a fridge and it does break down. That doesn't endorse every thing else.

I don't know does not equal God.

 

[drop bear]

That's...generally how buying appliances works. I don't think an appliance shop can afford to keep stock on the floor for a few weeks while you test the equipment to make sure it works.

Martial artists can sell a product for years without ever testing it. They can sell a product train a guy with it who can sell a product without ever testing it.

 

[jobo]

Martial artists can sell a product for years without ever testing it. They can sell a product train a guy with it who can sell a product without ever testing it.

its not a product its a service

 

[drop bear]

its not a product its a service

Semantics.

 

[jobo]

Semantics.

no not at all, thats like saying elephants and horses are different is semantics

this may be at the bottom of your confusion,, fridge ,,,product, MA instruction,,, service

 

[Gweilo]

Jeez, get a room, we are all individuals, what works for me, does not work for everyone else, we can all quote facts and figures that support our own veiws, DB with his sport derivived data from 150,000 ring sport derived facts, to an Akidoist JP, with 1/2 century of students, to a jack the lad, and his own experiences in a rough area, truth be told, if you, have not used your skill to diffuse, control, or destroy an opponent or situation, you have no proof, if you have, or have on many occasion, then you do have proof, some, or most train in blind faith, others know.

 

[drop bear]

no not at all, thats like saying elephants and horses are different is semantics

this may be at the bottom of your confusion,, fridge ,,,product, MA instruction,,, service

Not if you are describing common atributes.

 

[jobo]

Not if you are describing common atributes.

and which common attributes does a fridge and ma instruction have ?

 

[dvcochran]

Martial artists can sell a product for years without ever testing it. They can sell a product train a guy with it who can sell a product without ever testing it.

Again with the broad brush stroke. That just is not true for All martial arts. Some? Sure but not all.
I would argue that not all MMA matches are valid. Some have absolutely zero value. And this is Much more true for videos.

 

[dvcochran]

Self defense training is kind of like being that person, sold a 220 v fridge in a 110v environment. The salesman just says, "Hey, it's a good fridge. A great fridge. Keep it, and when you need it, plug it in and it will work. I promise. Look. Here's an adapter that makes the plug look just like those other ones."

That is a ridiculous assertion and a high percentage of what you describe is on the person/buyer.
Why are you so obsessed with thinking people cannot be informed and intelligent about a purchase or product? Why in the world would I buy a European fridge for my home in America? Why in the world would you not discover all you can about a product? This comes largely through experience and wisdom, sometimes in the form of learning from out mistakes.
It rings of the old saying "fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me".