Training half of martial arts bugs me.

[Gerry Seymour]

A: Dear master! What should I do to deal with a flying knee?
B: You don't need to learn that. This is a SD class. Your opponent will never use flying knee on you.

A: Dear master! Why do we train so much foot sweep in our school?
B: Because it's an important part of our MA system.

If you assume your opponent doesn't know much MA, your goal will not be a good MA person yourself. Your goal will be low.

SD doesn't have to ignore the trained folks. It sometimes does, and most start with the premise that that's not the most likely situation, but there's nothing inherent in SD training that excludes that. SD training in many cases is just MA training with a specific focus as one of the priorities, and often not the only one. Every place I've trained talked at least a little about SD, and most would consider themselves SD-oriented. Among those I'm referring to are a competition-oriented Judo program, a style-oriented Shotokan Karatedo program, a pretty traditional NGA program (actually 4 of those), a fusion of Jujutsu grappling and FMA stick and knife work, and others. There's really nothing much they have in common, except they all talked about SD.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

There should definitely be leaders in a field of expertise though. Otherwise you don't have a direction of travel.

If we start with the premise that SD isn't a field of expertise (rather, it's an area of focus), then we can look for leaders in a meaningful way. If we want to find the best fighters teaching SD, our best bet is to look for those who are teaching SD and are competing or have done so in the past (so we have a record to work from). If we want the best teachers, it's harder to measure. What do we want them to be the best at teaching? If it's fighting, then again, we have to settle for looking at those who have students who compete in something we feel reasonably aproximates fighting. If it's staying out of fights, de-escalation, awareness, or some other self-defense/self-protection skill besides fighting, there's not going to be a reasonable statistical way to get to that.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

they all talked about SD.

I have never used the term SD in my life. I don't like to live in a world that everybody all try to get me and I have to defend myself.

 

[Gweilo]

I think the "You only have your own culture to blame" is insulting. And it paints with way too broad a brush.

Im sorry you feel that way, Americans have the abillity to monetise everything, there are lots of american rags to riches stories.
America has more infomercials selling the dream, than any other country, they also have more shopping channels, they also have more millionaires that started with nothing,and it is true that if it looks good, and sounds good, Americans will buy it.
Another American trait is you take things too personally, and they are very eager to shoot from the hip, at the slightest displeasure, which is why americans get labelled as gung ho, shoot first ask questions later, its part of what makes americans, american, and if you take it as an insult, thats your problem, as it was not intended

 

[dvcochran]

My concern is whether a SD school help his students to develop the "foundation". Many women SD school doesn't teach foundation building. IMO, those teaching can be called as fake MA. Without horse stance, bow-arrow stance, ..., there is no way that a student can learn power generation.

When I do a SD presentation to a group or professional organization I Never describe it as a school or course. It is always stressed that it is a demonstration and a significant portion of time is spent emphasizing that the class will Not teach them how to defend themselves at large. More so that this idea is unrealistic at large. Nuggets of value to use, possibility. I frame it as an Introduction at best. To be thought provoking and encourage the need to continue the practice in an organized environment with instruction. One thing I Always do is show them how an idea can work but also how it can fail.
I know that sounds pitchy but it is never framed that way. The emphasis is on them Not leaving the class thinking they really know anything.

 

[dvcochran]

If we start with the premise that SD isn't a field of expertise (rather, it's an area of focus), then we can look for leaders in a meaningful way. If we want to find the best fighters teaching SD, our best bet is to look for those who are teaching SD and are competing or have done so in the past (so we have a record to work from). If we want the best teachers, it's harder to measure. What do we want them to be the best at teaching? If it's fighting, then again, we have to settle for looking at those who have students who compete in something we feel reasonably aproximates fighting. If it's staying out of fights, de-escalation, awareness, or some other self-defense/self-protection skill besides fighting, there's not going to be a reasonable statistical way to get to that.

Agree. In this context @Steve made a good argument that SD skills can be specific to certain trades. However there is quite a lot of overlapping material that applies across any conceivable scenario. SA really comes to mind here.
Who the SD expert is an anybody's guess. Just like teaching MA and never using contact/resistance is a bad, non-working idea, the same is true for SD. There are lots if tools to use nowadays to safely practice skills/drills at full speed & power. It is long gone now but we had a Bob that was destroyed by knife slices. And that was using very dull, blunt blades. Bob is one of the best practice inventions every IMHO.
I think there are more than a few people here who watch a tons of videos of bad material and paint all MA/SD/SA teaching environments with the same brush. Just a foolish assertion.

 

[Steve]

I’m Im not sure what about that would possibly imply we agree. You just ignore the point, rather than discussing it. I can only surmise as to the reason for that, but secret agreement isn’t anywhere on the list of likely reasons.

You missed what I was trying to say. You’re saying I’m misunderstanding you on purpose, or ignoring you. I think we just disagree. It doesn’t have to be malicious. You’re taking this personally and ascribing intent that’s not there. If we disagree, I’m fine with it. No big deal.

 

[Steve]

Are you implying he spent hours landing actual planes on actual rivers? If not, you’ve just made the exact analogy I made about a year ago, which you thought not quite right.

Odd that.

No, I’m overtly stating he was a really, really good pilot. He was at a point where he had such mastery of his skill set (an expert among experts) that he could innovate on the fly (no pun intended). Do you think a pilot less experienced would have saved the lives of everyone that day? More to the point, do you think someone who has only ever played MS Flight Simulator Pro could have done so?

 

[Steve]

Im sorry you feel that way, Americans have the abillity to monetise everything, there are lots of american rags to riches stories.
America has more infomercials selling the dream, than any other country, they also have more shopping channels, they also have more millionaires that started with nothing,and it is true that if it looks good, and sounds good, Americans will buy it.
Another American trait is you take things too personally, and they are very eager to shoot from the hip, at the slightest displeasure, which is why americans get labelled as gung ho, shoot first ask questions later, its part of what makes americans, american, and if you take it as an insult, thats your problem, as it was not intended

I don’t know, man. Japan sells some crazy stuff.

 

[Steve]

When I do a SD presentation to a group or professional organization I Never describe it as a school or course. It is always stressed that it is a demonstration and a significant portion of time is spent emphasizing that the class will Not teach them how to defend themselves at large. More so that this idea is unrealistic at large. Nuggets of value to use, possibility. I frame it as an Introduction at best. To be thought provoking and encourage the need to continue the practice in an organized environment with instruction. One thing I Always do is show them how an idea can work but also how it can fail.
I know that sounds pitchy but it is never framed that way. The emphasis is on them Not leaving the class thinking they really know anything.

That’s quite a gig. I’m not teaching you anything. Hopefully, you’ll get a nugget. But maybe not. You will leave this class not knowing anything.

That is the most honest description of self defense training I’ve seen on this forum. I’m imagining how easy all of the training and coaching I do would be if I could remove any requirement to deliver performance based results.

 

[Steve]

I feel like our differences are a result of differing experiences. All self defense that I've learned is based on demonstrable skill development through competition, in NAGA and MMA. The same for BJJ. The school that I train at currently does mostly BJJ for self defense, and most of the people compete. I already discussed my past school. Doing self defense, or teaching self defense, doesn't mean that there is no skill development, or that there isn't any competition. Apparently (not from my experiences but from what I've gathered of others), people stating they teach self defense means they don't teach applicable skills and encourage non-competing. None of the places I've gone to for SD encourage that, so I guess my main issue is associating SD schools with non-applicable skills and no-sparring or fighting.

Depends on the teacher and the student. In less than two generations, BJJ has split into two camps: sport and self defense. Think about that in the context of what I’ve been saying.

I don’t have a problem with this. Rather, I see it as a natural deviation based on the expertise of the individual instructor and the application of the individual students.

think about some hypotheticals, presuming that the instructor is qualified in both schools. A cop who trains in a self defense oriented school that competes, or a cop who trains in a sport oriented school. Vs a school teacher who trains in each. What are they getting from the school in each scenario? What are they bringing to the table, in terms of application? And, given time, what would they eventually be qualified to teach?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

A cop who trains in a self defense oriented school that competes, or a cop who trains in a sport oriented school. Vs a school teacher who trains in each. What are they getting from the school in each scenario? What are they bringing to the table, in terms of application? And, given time, what would they eventually be qualified to teach?

I don't know about BJJ. But for Chinese wrestling the difference is noticeable.

Chinese wrestling for combat (I don't use the term SD) - you can hit on your opponent's arms as hard as you can when you move in.

Chinese wrestling for sport - you are not allowed to do that.

 

[Buka]

Im sorry you feel that way, Americans have the abillity to monetise everything, there are lots of american rags to riches stories.
America has more infomercials selling the dream, than any other country, they also have more shopping channels, they also have more millionaires that started with nothing,and it is true that if it looks good, and sounds good, Americans will buy it.
Another American trait is you take things too personally, and they are very eager to shoot from the hip, at the slightest displeasure, which is why americans get labelled as gung ho, shoot first ask questions later, its part of what makes americans, american, and if you take it as an insult, thats your problem, as it was not intended

And, yet, you continue.

I tire of the anti American opinions expressed here. I guess people think all Americans are the same. No cultural diversity here at all.

Very open minded, that.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Depends on the teacher and the student. In less than two generations, BJJ has split into two camps: sport and self defense. Think about that in the context of what I’ve been saying.

I don’t have a problem with this. Rather, I see it as a natural deviation based on the expertise of the individual instructor and the application of the individual students.

think about some hypotheticals, presuming that the instructor is qualified in both schools. A cop who trains in a self defense oriented school that competes, or a cop who trains in a sport oriented school. Vs a school teacher who trains in each. What are they getting from the school in each scenario? What are they bringing to the table, in terms of application? And, given time, what would they eventually be qualified to teach?

In the SD school that competes, they should also be learning from people things like verbal deescalation/conflict resolution, and situational awareness. Also, with BJJ in particular, I don't believe sport oriented schools will teach how to handle multiple attackers or when weapons are involved. Obviously teaching how to handle multiple attackers in general has it's pitfalls, but there are certain strategies that can be taught with it. And adding a knife into BJJ can change the game completely.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Im sorry you feel that way, Americans have the abillity to monetise everything, there are lots of american rags to riches stories.
America has more infomercials selling the dream, than any other country, they also have more shopping channels, they also have more millionaires that started with nothing,and it is true that if it looks good, and sounds good, Americans will buy it.
Another American trait is you take things too personally, and they are very eager to shoot from the hip, at the slightest displeasure, which is why americans get labelled as gung ho, shoot first ask questions later, its part of what makes americans, american, and if you take it as an insult, thats your problem, as it was not intended

There are about 6 different cultures in america, depending on the region that you're from. Which culture are you referring to here? Unless you would also suggest that all of western europe is the same culture regardless of country, and there's no difference besides language between ireland and italy for instance.

 

[drop bear]

In the SD school that competes, they should also be learning from people things like verbal deescalation/conflict resolution, and situational awareness. Also, with BJJ in particular, I don't believe sport oriented schools will teach how to handle multiple attackers or when weapons are involved. Obviously teaching how to handle multiple attackers in general has it's pitfalls, but there are certain strategies that can be taught with it. And adding a knife into BJJ can change the game completely.

Yes but they should be learning something that isn't absolute hogwash.

Deescalation, awareness from people not qualified is pointless.

Knives and multiple defense from people who cannot demonstrate it working is pointless.

This is precisely where we could look to leaders in these fields so we can get a gauge if we are even traveling in the right direction.

Who would these guys be again?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

And adding a knife into BJJ can change the game completely.

No need to add in knife. Just adding in a spikes ring will change the BJJ game completely.

- BJJ can destroy the throwing art.
- Spikes ring can destroy the ground game.

 

[drop bear]

No need to add in knife. Just adding in a spikes ring will change the BJJ game completely.

- BJJ can destroy the throwing art.
- Spikes ring can destroy the ground game.

Only sort of.

There is a change in priority where you need to watch out for striking from people off their back.

But there are still tools in grappling that deal with that.

The reality is you focus more on gift wrapping and kimouras.

I have never considered that knee chop by the way.

And then prioritize striking rather than a top side sub.

If someone has the basic grappling skills these issues are addressed fairly quickly.


If you don't have the basic grappling then you will need to invest a lot more time solving these.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I have never used the term SD in my life. I don't like to live in a world that everybody all try to get me and I have to defend myself.

Some were kind of paranoid like they, but most weren’t. They mostly focused on teaching the art/system.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Im sorry you feel that way, Americans have the abillity to monetise everything, there are lots of american rags to riches stories.
America has more infomercials selling the dream, than any other country, they also have more shopping channels, they also have more millionaires that started with nothing,and it is true that if it looks good, and sounds good, Americans will buy it.
Another American trait is you take things too personally, and they are very eager to shoot from the hip, at the slightest displeasure, which is why americans get labelled as gung ho, shoot first ask questions later, its part of what makes americans, american, and if you take it as an insult, thats your problem, as it was not intended

All of that personality stereotype is just that. There are Americans who are like some or all of those things. There are many more who don’t fit any of those descriptions.