Training half of martial arts bugs me.

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I would never equate training BJJ with training for self defense. That’s exactly the point.

However, I would say training and competing in BJJ promotes demonstrable skill development that could be complimentary. People who train in other “grappling” styles find out very quickly if they have been wasting their time or not. People with years, sometimes a decade or more, of experience realize that they still suck pretty bad. Consider how well an average ninja would do vs a an average wrestler on their first day at a BJJ school. One has been cooking food, and the other has been mimicking the process of cooking food.

I feel like our differences are a result of differing experiences. All self defense that I've learned is based on demonstrable skill development through competition, in NAGA and MMA. The same for BJJ. The school that I train at currently does mostly BJJ for self defense, and most of the people compete. I already discussed my past school. Doing self defense, or teaching self defense, doesn't mean that there is no skill development, or that there isn't any competition. Apparently (not from my experiences but from what I've gathered of others), people stating they teach self defense means they don't teach applicable skills and encourage non-competing. None of the places I've gone to for SD encourage that, so I guess my main issue is associating SD schools with non-applicable skills and no-sparring or fighting.

 

[Ivan]

Sorry I have to go soon so I will flesh this out better later.

But mentioning the fence made me think of this. Doing a fence but not understanding distancing or angles does not work very well.

Eye gouging without understanding striking or grappling well enough to employ it.

Doing half of the things needed to make martial arts.

It bugs me.

I wanted to try out a Shorinji Kempo team and the Sensei was one of the most awesome people I’d ever met. However the first technique we were taught was a flick to the eye...
I was then also overwhelmed by a number of grappling and striking techniques and had to practice multiple yet different techniques each session. The grappling techniques were too long winded for me.

The Traditional Jujitsu class I used to attend was great, in the respect that we would practice a set number of techniques, every day for 2 hours straight with just straight repetition. Apart from this, the first thing I was taught in Jujitsu was the theory, which J think was a much better approach. I ended up leaving because they didn’t do sparring however.


Imo when teaching a martial art, the first thing that should be taught are the theories behind its origins. For example, when teaching taekwondo, I think it’s important to mention its emphasis on kicks came from the idea that the legs are stronger than the arms, and if made faster than the arms, you could become the ultimate fighter.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

For example, when teaching taekwondo, I think it’s important to mention its emphasis on kicks came from the idea that the legs are stronger than the arms, and if made faster than the arms, you could become the ultimate fighter.

I don't know enough about TKD to dispute this being its origins. But I have so many responses to fast kicks turning you into the ultimate fighter.

 

[drop bear]

I feel like our differences are a result of differing experiences. All self defense that I've learned is based on demonstrable skill development through competition, in NAGA and MMA. The same for BJJ. The school that I train at currently does mostly BJJ for self defense, and most of the people compete. I already discussed my past school. Doing self defense, or teaching self defense, doesn't mean that there is no skill development, or that there isn't any competition. Apparently (not from my experiences but from what I've gathered of others), people stating they teach self defense means they don't teach applicable skills and encourage non-competing. None of the places I've gone to for SD encourage that, so I guess my main issue is associating SD schools with non-applicable skills and no-sparring or fighting.

Who are the top guys in self defense?

Let's say we put them in a field against say jocko wilink

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

SD schools.

Does SD school also teach a complete MA system? If a MA school teaches a complete MA system, it's not a SD school.

 

[drop bear]

Does SD school also teach a complete MA system? If a MA school teaches a complete MA system, it's not a SD school.

I disagree. I have always suggested the standard for self defense being the equivalent of MMA plus.

Not MMA light.

And honestly if all you did was refine solid basics under pressure. You would have a complete martial arts for self defense system.

The concept is called being a boring percentage fighter. Where you just take the most likely tools to work and refine them with no risks.

 

[dvcochran]

Does SD school also teach a complete MA system? If a MA school teaches a complete MA system, it's not a SD school.

I suppose I have never seen a purely self defense school then.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Does SD school also teach a complete MA system? If a MA school teaches a complete MA system, it's not a SD school.

Those could be two separate things. So a school could teach both self defense and a martial art. That’s more semantics than anything though

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Who are the top guys in self defense?

Let's say we put them in a field against say jocko wilink

No clue. I’ve also no clue who the top Muay Thai, bjj, ufc, kickboxing, fencing guys are though. And there may be a competition out there that determines it that I’m unaware of. But there’s no need for there to be a “top”, not everything is a competition.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I suppose I have never seen a purely self defense school then.

My concern is whether a SD school help his students to develop the "foundation". Many women SD school doesn't teach foundation building. IMO, those teaching can be called as fake MA. Without horse stance, bow-arrow stance, ..., there is no way that a student can learn power generation.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

not everything is a competition.

If you have blocked a punch 10,000 times, your chance to block the 10,001 punch will be high. That's competition (compete against your past record).

To test your MA skill can be as simple as you punch at me, i try to block it. IMO, there exist no other way to develop MA skill.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Really? That implies that I secretly agree with you. Much more likely that we just disagree. I think, if the students aren’t applying skills, the best you can hope for is to get them close to application. Alternatively, you teach them your system, and hope it’s close enough to transfer the skills. If Jane-cook-do is good enough, maybe after 10 years, Old Frank will be able to catch up on the food part pretty quick. The rest is just luck and confirmation bias.

As for this being a rehash, of course it is. as @dvcochran says above, it’s common knowledge. Talking about how literally every skill is developed from birth to death in human experience... except self defense skill, if you’re to be believed,

I’m Im not sure what about that would possibly imply we agree. You just ignore the point, rather than discussing it. I can only surmise as to the reason for that, but secret agreement isn’t anywhere on the list of likely reasons.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

How do chefs learn to fix their mistakes? They make mistakes and fix them, Gerry. Or they make mistakes and pitch them, and then do them until they don’t make that mistake again. Or you log enough hours developing the skill that you are expert enough to innovate.

how does a pilot learn to land a commercial plane in the Hudson?

answer, they become really, really good pilots.

Are you implying he spent hours landing actual planes on actual rivers? If not, you’ve just made the exact analogy I made about a year ago, which you thought not quite right.

Odd that.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Agree! You can't produce any good student by using the SD teaching method.

SD teaching = train 1/2 of MA.

Does SD training include "equipment training"?

Why should SD training necessarily exclude those things?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

My concern is whether a SD school help his students to develop the "foundation". Many women SD school doesn't teach foundation building. IMO, those teaching can be called as fake MA. Without horse stance, bow-arrow stance, ..., there is no way that a student can learn power generation.

It is true some (I’d guess many) SD schools don’t do a good job building a foundation. But that isn’t inherent in SD training. Nothing is, any more than it is in any orientation of training.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Does SD school also teach a complete MA system? If a MA school teaches a complete MA system, it's not a SD school.

Why not?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I disagree. I have always suggested the standard for self defense being the equivalent of MMA plus.

Not MMA light.

And honestly if all you did was refine solid basics under pressure. You would have a complete martial arts for self defense system.

The concept is called being a boring percentage fighter. Where you just take the most likely tools to work and refine them with no risks.

That is, in fact, the principle behind the “foundation” curriculum that students start as soon as they enter my program. Basic strikes. Basic movement, basic grappling. Everything else builds on that.

 

[Buka]

Never a truer comment made

Imo, if people want to keep fit by boxercise, thats great, but lets be honest, these programs are predominantly American, whilst there are some epic American martial artists, past and present, Americans have an inbuilt ability to moneytise everything, as long as it looks good, sounds good, someone, somehere is going to buy it.if its sold as an exercise regime, fine, if its sold as an exercise regime that doubles as a self defense system, as used by Rambo, with a one time special offer, and a free nutri bullet, and 3 one on one video classes with 35th dan Clamydia expert, not so good. You only have your own culture to blame.

I think the "You only have your own culture to blame" is insulting. And it paints with way too broad a brush.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Why not?

A: Dear master! What should I do to deal with a flying knee?
B: You don't need to learn that. This is a SD class. Your opponent will never use flying knee on you.

A: Dear master! Why do we train so much foot sweep in our school?
B: Because it's an important part of our MA system.

If you assume your opponent doesn't know much MA, your goal will not be a good MA person yourself. Your goal will be low.

 

[drop bear]

No clue. I’ve also no clue who the top Muay Thai, bjj, ufc, kickboxing, fencing guys are though. And there may be a competition out there that determines it that I’m unaware of. But there’s no need for there to be a “top”, not everything is a competition.

There should definitely be leaders in a field of expertise though. Otherwise you don't have a direction of travel.