Train MA for self-cultivation

drop bear

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In other news, this tangent raises an interesting question that is actually on topic. Do people learn to shoot guns for self cultivation? Do gun instructors believe that teaching character is (or should be) intrinsic to teaching people to shoot their guns? If this has already been addressed, I apologize. I haven't read every post in detail.

It is pretty normal to do that here.

You throw in all the basic benifits a sport gives people. Mabye with some added longevity and inclusivity.

So Mabye if you are not in your prime. Or a physical specimen.

 
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drop bear

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That also depends on your personality type. There are plenty of people who can fight well, and they're the type that you don't want to hang with because they're gonna get you locked up. Almost happened to me as a teenager.

That's why I don't see anything self-contradictory about "self-cultivation" being integrated into martial arts training.

The sort of mental discipline that is needed for competition fighting. Is the sort of mental discipline that keeps you out of fights.
 

gpseymour

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I thought MA training is as simple as

- fist meet face, and
- head meet earth.

When someone says, "I train MA for self-cultivation", What does he mean?

I have Googled and get this, "Self-cultivation or personal cultivation is the development of one's mind or capacities through one's own efforts."

I understand each and every word, but I have no idea what the whole sentence is talking about (my IQ score is 145).

Your thought?

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Developing any skill through concerted effort develops more than just that skill. Doesn't matter whether it's soccer, karate, or knitting. Some things take more dedication and pushing through difficulty, and those things develop other areas. Some things take a willingness to be worse than the next person on a regular basis (at least for a while), and those also develop other areas.

So, sometimes folks use MA as the thing they want to work on, struggle through, learn to be humble at and humbled by, etc. And sometimes they have little interest in whether they're learning to fight or not, because that's not their focus.
 

gpseymour

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In any case, a firearm doesn't require anywhere near as much time or money.
You seem to be under the illusion that a firearm magically solves physical conflict. Even when it is appropriate to use one, the ability to deploy it is not automatic. I'd argue the basics of good firearm use, retention, and decision making likely takes about the same amount of practice as foundational fighting skills.
 

gpseymour

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In other news, this tangent raises an interesting question that is actually on topic. Do people learn to shoot guns for self cultivation? Do gun instructors believe that teaching character is (or should be) intrinsic to teaching people to shoot their guns? If this has already been addressed, I apologize. I haven't read every post in detail.
I've never seen anyone teaching or training it for that purpose, but I'd argue that those who really dedicate time to it, put their ego aside (usually via competition) and learn, and make it about developing the skills for the sake of developing the skills are personally following the same kind of pursuit. I think it lacks much of the interaction that other sport (and MA) has that helps with learning team and communication skills.
 

Urban Trekker

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You seem to be under the illusion that a firearm magically solves physical conflict. Even when it is appropriate to use one, the ability to deploy it is not automatic. I'd argue the basics of good firearm use, retention, and decision making likely takes about the same amount of practice as foundational fighting skills.

This is just a bunch of BS that sounds good on a martial arts forum.

George Zimmerman effectively used a firearm to get out of an ***-whoopin', so it happens.

You'll even hear the common utterance on the streets that the increase in gun violence over the past few decades is because people are scared to use their hands. You wouldn't know that where you live, but now you do.
 
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Gyakuto

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I thought MA training is as simple as

- fist meet face, and
- head meet earth.

When someone says, "I train MA for self-cultivation", What does he mean?

I have Googled and get this, "Self-cultivation or personal cultivation is the development of one's mind or capacities through one's own efforts."

I understand each and every word, but I have no idea what the whole sentence is talking about (my IQ score is 145).

Your thought?

View attachment 26892
View attachment 26893
The premise is that through practising martial arts, it forges ones character through hard training, adversity and tenacity augmenting ones morals and round off ones personality. It’s a much repeated idea, promoted by Japanese teachers and even boxing coaches but it is complete bunkum. Some of the most loathsome, duplicitous, viscous financially corrupt characters I’ve met have been martial artists (and I used to be a magistrate!). If you teach a w*nker martial arts, you get a w*nker who can do martial arts...the converse is also true, thus the only conclusion one can draw is the MA have nothing to do with self-cultivation of character!
 

tongsau

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I thought MA training is as simple as

- fist meet face, and
- head meet earth.

When someone says, "I train MA for self-cultivation", What does he mean?

I have Googled and get this, "Self-cultivation or personal cultivation is the development of one's mind or capacities through one's own efforts."

I understand each and every word, but I have no idea what the whole sentence is talking about (my IQ score is 145).

Your thought?

View attachment 26892
View attachment 26893
I have been practicing Zhan Zhuang for a few years now.
Real martial arts is hidden from most fools.
I teach Tongsau after 40 years of training. Most of what I train now is internal Gong fu. Healing is my path. I also toss black belts of many arts.
 

Gyakuto

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I have been practicing Zhan Zhuang for a few years now.
Real martial arts is hidden from most fools.
I teach Tongsau after 40 years of training. Most of what I train now is internal Gong fu. Healing is my path. I also toss black belts of many arts.
And there’s the proof!
 

isshinryuronin

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The premise is that through practising martial arts, it forges ones character through hard training, adversity and tenacity augmenting ones morals and round off ones personality. It’s a much repeated idea, promoted by Japanese teachers and even boxing coaches but it is complete bunkum. Some of the most loathsome, duplicitous, viscous financially corrupt characters I’ve met have been martial artists (and I used to be a magistrate!). If you teach a w*nker martial arts, you get a w*nker who can do martial arts...the converse is also true, thus the only conclusion one can draw is the MA have nothing to do with self-cultivation of character!
I agree with part of what you post, except your conclusion.

Take the case of someone walking thru the woods as being akin to TMA study. You can say that the person is merely going from one point to another and achieving no personal benefits or development. Sometimes this is true and that person completes the journey having undergone no transformation.

Some may be taking that walk to exercise their heart, lungs and legs to achieve greater health or fitness.

Some may be taking note of specific species of birds or trees during their walk.

Others may take a less intellectual approach and simple revel in the beauty, smells and sounds of nature as they walk.

Perhaps some take in a less sensual, and more spiritual experience, walking in awe and pondering their place in the world of Nature and the nature of their own existence in the world.

That walk offers many opportunities for people to take advantage of. Some dullards complete the journey unchanged. Others use that walk to open themselves up for more than just covering distance. They understand the path thru those woods offers much more if they are open to receive its potential gifts.
 

Gyakuto

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But that means MA are no different to a walk, boxing, skateboarding, fishing, stamp collecting, cross-dressing...MA do not have a unique ability to change lives, it’s the person engaging in the activity that decides what they get out of their pursuit.
 

Yokozuna514

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But that means MA are no different to a walk, boxing, skateboarding, fishing, stamp collecting, cross-dressing...MA do not have a unique ability to change lives, it’s the person engaging in the activity that decides what they get out of their pursuit.
Yes and no. Most MA are meant to be challenging for the body and spirit. What a particular practitioner walks away with is correlated by the factors of the journey and what they bring with them to their practice. The same cannot be said for many of the examples you posted. If you put very little in, you will probably get very little out of it. Conversely, if you dedicate a lot of time and energy into your practice and are guided by someone who has gone through the journey before you whom you wish to emulate, there is a lot that can be gained. Not everything in life is meant to challenge you in this way and that's ok.
 

Gyakuto

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What do you mean by ‘put very little in’? Engage in an activity half-heartedly? This applies to any activity. I’m suggesting that there is nothing special about the activity we call MA that brings about socially acceptable changes in the practitioners personality. Performing an Iaido kata with great intent will have no greater effect upon your character than say, practising your skateboard flipperty-twist jumps with your full-spirited intent. It’s the depth of intent that
makes the difference!
 

Gyakuto

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If I wanted to engage in self-cultivation activities, something that is more likely to make me a better person, I study philosophy, moral-reasoning, some sort of physical activity, perform regular voluntary work with the greatest pariahs in society..yes Beliebers...
 

Yokozuna514

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What do you mean by ‘put very little in’? Engage in an activity half-heartedly? This applies to any activity. I’m suggesting that there is nothing special about the activity we call MA that brings about socially acceptable changes in the practitioners personality. Performing an Iaido kata with great intent will have no greater effect upon your character than say, practising your skateboard flipperty-twist jumps with your full-spirited intent. It’s the depth of intent that
makes the difference!
Yes, it could mean putting very little effort in or engaging half-heartedly however the MA also has to be physically and mentally challenging. If you aren't being pushed to and past your perceived limits, there is no growth. Sosai Mas Oyama has a great quote, "The heart of our karate is real fighting. There can be no proof without real fighting. Without proof there is no trust. Without trust there is no respect. This is the definition in the world of martial arts."
 

Tony Dismukes

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Any activity that requires you to push yourself beyond your comfort zone, realize and overcome your weaknesses and fears, and gives you the tools to face adversity while keeping your humility, is definitly self-cultivation.
I sort of agree, but with a caveat.

I'd say that activities of the sort you describe give you the tools for self-cultivation. If you want the lessons learned and attributes developed to affect your life and person beyond the bounds of the specific activity, then you have to make the choice and exert the effort to make them do so.

Furthermore, the lessons you take from your specific activity and apply to your life aren't necessarily positive. Martial arts practice (or any other activity of the sort you describe) gives you tools. How you use those tools comes down to you and what sort of person you're trying to be. Your training can help you become calmer, humbler, and more thoughtful. Or it can help you become more of an arrogant, aggressive jerk. Your choice.
 

gpseymour

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This is just a bunch of BS that sounds good on a martial arts forum.

George Zimmerman effectively used a firearm to get out of an ***-whoopin', so it happens.

You'll even hear the common utterance on the streets that the increase in gun violence over the past few decades is because people are scared to use their hands. You wouldn't know that where you live, but now you do.
That it has worked doesn't mean it works reliably. Lots of things happen from time to time that can't be depended upon. Guns don't magically appear in-hand pointed in the right direction. And they don't make good decisions for you.

As for the senseless comments about where I live, you're just trying to sound tough and streetwise. Which you may or may not be, and neither state would change the fact that guns are best deployed with skill.
 

gpseymour

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The premise is that through practising martial arts, it forges ones character through hard training, adversity and tenacity augmenting ones morals and round off ones personality. It’s a much repeated idea, promoted by Japanese teachers and even boxing coaches but it is complete bunkum. Some of the most loathsome, duplicitous, viscous financially corrupt characters I’ve met have been martial artists (and I used to be a magistrate!). If you teach a w*nker martial arts, you get a w*nker who can do martial arts...the converse is also true, thus the only conclusion one can draw is the MA have nothing to do with self-cultivation of character!
That people can do martial arts and be bad people doesn't mean martial arts can't help develop people. Or are you saying there's no way to develop people (since there are bad people in every pursuit)?
 

gpseymour

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But that means MA are no different to a walk, boxing, skateboarding, fishing, stamp collecting, cross-dressing...MA do not have a unique ability to change lives, it’s the person engaging in the activity that decides what they get out of their pursuit.
An arguement I've made many times. MA can be used as a path for developing people. I think it has some nice potential for helping young folks learn self-control and decision making, given the right mentor (instructor) to guide the development. The same can be said of team sports and other pursuits, to varying degrees.
 
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