Common Core for MA, SD Instruction?

dvcochran

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It has been bantered about quite a lot on the forum; Is Martial Arts Self Defense and vice versa. The spectrum of teaching is so broad it is very difficult to have an apples to apples conversation about any one thing. As a long time instructor of both a MA Dojang and separately SD for law enforcement/emergency services and private individuals, I understand the differences, advantages, & disadvantages of isolating the two.
From a quality of instruction, truth in advertising, etc..., do you see any value in regulatory control at least in the commercial environment?
I feel it defames all MA when someone promotes themselves to a high rank or comes with a new MA style and starts promoting it as "the best". It is also extremely dangerous for those thinking they are getting quality SD training.
What are your thoughts on how a common core would be structured. What are the big picture columns that describe minimum satisfactory skills. MA is not math so there are no finite answers. Not specific to style. Not how you perform a front stance.
 

gpseymour

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A common core for what? I could outline separate potential common cores for grappling competition, striking competition, mixed competition, MMA, non-competition SD work, general MA, MA for fitness, etc. There can even be some crossover.

I have heard of some standardization that's been done in Germany. According to two students (one a long-term student, one a visitor from Germany), there's a standard "Jujutsu" curriculum and a standard "Shotokan" curriculum in Germany. There's some benefit to that, but it also eliminates a lot of the opportunity for progression of knowledge. Of course, we could ignore the specific skills, and instead have a list of what must be covered ("defense against" and "training types" requirements). Even then, though, what's useful depends largely upon the purpose of the training.
 

JowGaWolf

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It has been bantered about quite a lot on the forum; Is Martial Arts Self Defense and vice versa. The spectrum of teaching is so broad it is very difficult to have an apples to apples conversation about any one thing. As a long time instructor of both a MA Dojang and separately SD for law enforcement/emergency services and private individuals, I understand the differences, advantages, & disadvantages of isolating the two.
From a quality of instruction, truth in advertising, etc..., do you see any value in regulatory control at least in the commercial environment?
I feel it defames all MA when someone promotes themselves to a high rank or comes with a new MA style and starts promoting it as "the best". It is also extremely dangerous for those thinking they are getting quality SD training.
What are your thoughts on how a common core would be structured. What are the big picture columns that describe minimum satisfactory skills. MA is not math so there are no finite answers. Not specific to style. Not how you perform a front stance.
The problem is that there are many reasons that a person takes martial arts and not everyone takes it for self-defense. Very few want to learn how to fight. And everyone is taking that same class but have a different focus.

I think people are also confused with the reality of what SD and MA (for self-defense) looks like. I've seen videos of someone who took a kick boxing fitness class and stated on a video that she now feels like she can defend herself because of the kick boxing fitness class. It's stuff like this that makes it difficult to create a common core.

The most that we can do as instructors is to start an association where the instructors agree on a basic core set of training methods designed to teach self-defense and martial arts fighting skills. From here any school or instructor who is part of this association will have a logo and certification that shows they meet the standard of the Association for the basic core. Other than that it's just going to be really difficult to create any type of regulatory control that sets some standards.

There are some methods that I use for self-defense and martial arts fighting that some may think of as being ineffective. Now it becomes an issue of me trying to prove that what I train meets the standards. There is also the question that if it works for me, does that mean it will work for someone else.
 

JowGaWolf

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There's some benefit to that, but it also eliminates a lot of the opportunity for progression of knowledge.
For me personally I wouldn't like any standards that would prevent me from progression or even experimentation of an application or fight theory. That would just drive nuts. I couldn't see the standards going beyond basics. Even with basics it becomes an issue of basics that apply to all fighting systems. Karate basics are not the same as tkd basics.
 

jobo

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It has been bantered about quite a lot on the forum; Is Martial Arts Self Defense and vice versa. The spectrum of teaching is so broad it is very difficult to have an apples to apples conversation about any one thing. As a long time instructor of both a MA Dojang and separately SD for law enforcement/emergency services and private individuals, I understand the differences, advantages, & disadvantages of isolating the two.
From a quality of instruction, truth in advertising, etc..., do you see any value in regulatory control at least in the commercial environment?
I feel it defames all MA when someone promotes themselves to a high rank or comes with a new MA style and starts promoting it as "the best". It is also extremely dangerous for those thinking they are getting quality SD training.
What are your thoughts on how a common core would be structured. What are the big picture columns that describe minimum satisfactory skills. MA is not math so there are no finite answers. Not specific to style. Not how you perform a front stance.
Yes, but I have no idea what it could be and how to police it,

Tmas, have to the most part been watered down by social presures, people just Arnt as tough as they once were , People cry if they get punched, so you have a good % of people learning to fight with out fighting, exercising with out effort oR comitment. You will get what We now have,

The new self defense systems promise to do what tmas,cant, but fall on the same hurdle, you can't Learn to be good at self defense with out experiencing pain and discomfort, an advertising campaign that read come to our club and be beaten up Three times a week, so you don't get beaten up once every 5years, may be a had sell to snowflakes
 

gpseymour

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For me personally I wouldn't like any standards that would prevent me from progression or even experimentation of an application or fight theory. That would just drive nuts. I couldn't see the standards going beyond basics. Even with basics it becomes an issue of basics that apply to all fighting systems. Karate basics are not the same as tkd basics.
Agreed. I've been invited back to the NGA association I originally ranked in, but declined for that reason. I don't think I'd be a good citizen for such an organization - I'd just be confusing to students from the rest of the group.
 

JowGaWolf

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Agreed. I've been invited back to the NGA association I originally ranked in, but declined for that reason. I don't think I'd be a good citizen for such an organization - I'd just be confusing to students from the rest of the group.
Good thing about life is that there is no rule that says we can't blaze our own path.
 

frank raud

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It has been bantered about quite a lot on the forum; Is Martial Arts Self Defense and vice versa. The spectrum of teaching is so broad it is very difficult to have an apples to apples conversation about any one thing. As a long time instructor of both a MA Dojang and separately SD for law enforcement/emergency services and private individuals, I understand the differences, advantages, & disadvantages of isolating the two.
From a quality of instruction, truth in advertising, etc..., do you see any value in regulatory control at least in the commercial environment?
I feel it defames all MA when someone promotes themselves to a high rank or comes with a new MA style and starts promoting it as "the best". It is also extremely dangerous for those thinking they are getting quality SD training.
What are your thoughts on how a common core would be structured. What are the big picture columns that describe minimum satisfactory skills. MA is not math so there are no finite answers. Not specific to style. Not how you perform a front stance.
What would be a common core between judo and TKD? Too many variables in various martial arts to say that there is a common core in all martial arts. Regulation? You want government officials with no knowledge of any martial art deciding what constitutes a martial art? Or possibly worse, someone with extensive knowledge of one art dictating how another art must be performed?
 

jobo

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What would be a common core between judo and TKD? Too many variables in various martial arts to say that there is a common core in all martial arts. Regulation? You want government officials with no knowledge of any martial art deciding what constitutes a martial art? Or possibly worse, someone with extensive knowledge of one art dictating how another art must be performed?
simple every art sends its best fighter to a,secrete location on qn,island , and then they fight it out, over seen by a mysterious man with a,steel claw instead of a hand,
only the winning art is,allowed to carry on, the others must disband in shame, possibly with suicide by falling on a ceremonial sword, or at least some chop sticks
 

gpseymour

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simple every art sends its best fighter to a,secrete location on qn,island , and then they fight it out, over seen by a mysterious man with a,steel claw instead of a hand,
only the winning art is,allowed to carry on, the others must disband in shame, possibly with suicide by falling on a ceremonial sword, or at least some chop sticks
We'll all be studying Dux-ryu if you do that.
 

drop bear

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Yeah. Self regulation is the best answer.

It works so well for so many other industries.
 
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dvcochran

dvcochran

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The problem is that there are many reasons that a person takes martial arts and not everyone takes it for self-defense. Very few want to learn how to fight. And everyone is taking that same class but have a different focus.

I think people are also confused with the reality of what SD and MA (for self-defense) looks like. I've seen videos of someone who took a kick boxing fitness class and stated on a video that she now feels like she can defend herself because of the kick boxing fitness class. It's stuff like this that makes it difficult to create a common core.

The most that we can do as instructors is to start an association where the instructors agree on a basic core set of training methods designed to teach self-defense and martial arts fighting skills. From here any school or instructor who is part of this association will have a logo and certification that shows they meet the standard of the Association for the basic core. Other than that it's just going to be really difficult to create any type of regulatory control that sets some standards.

There are some methods that I use for self-defense and martial arts fighting that some may think of as being ineffective. Now it becomes an issue of me trying to prove that what I train meets the standards. There is also the question that if it works for me, does that mean it will work for someone else.
Very well said and exactly to my point. Maybe common core is a misnomer. Regulation, verification, certification from a common body is more to the point. Not all but too many solo schools are way out in left field. Sadly some formal bodies are too loose and lenient. "Send up $500 and you can be a Grand Master" bs.
 
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dvcochran

dvcochran

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For me personally I wouldn't like any standards that would prevent me from progression or even experimentation of an application or fight theory. That would just drive nuts. I couldn't see the standards going beyond basics. Even with basics it becomes an issue of basics that apply to all fighting systems. Karate basics are not the same as tkd basics.
Yes, there would have to be a vehicle that allows for the things you mentioned. Similar to the fitness instructor, trainer models, the law doesn't require credentials, but it is a key element to a successful business.
 
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dvcochran

dvcochran

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What would be a common core between judo and TKD? Too many variables in various martial arts to say that there is a common core in all martial arts. Regulation? You want government officials with no knowledge of any martial art deciding what constitutes a martial art? Or possibly worse, someone with extensive knowledge of one art dictating how another art must be performed?
In the best case scenario, it would be a body from within the MA community. Self regulating, not government ran. Pie in the sky, probably but if it starts the conversation and shores up our eroding community I am all for it. I picture something akin to the CFR. Expansive in category and very specific in topic so it would cover all the mainstream styles. Not a big government proponent at all.
 

JowGaWolf

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Yeah. Self regulation is the best answer.

It works so well for so many other industries.
So true. When people say that I think of the reason why we have laws, because we are so good with "self-regulating" our behaviors lol.
 

Ryan_

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It has been bantered about quite a lot on the forum; Is Martial Arts Self Defense and vice versa..
Many styles do focus on self defense scenarios. Many don't and are more competition/sport focused. I don't think you can say all martial arts are self defense, because I'm sure not all martial arts are necessarily self defense. Boxing, for example, probably isn't the best martial art to choose for self defense. In an unexpected situation, you'd probably do far more than punching.
From a quality of instruction, truth in advertising, etc..., do you see any value in regulatory control at least in the commercial environment?
From a truth in advertising point?
There is already laws regarding false information in adverts (negligent and fraudulent misrepresentation), however, for many martial arts it may be difficult to determine from a legal standpoint if something is in breach of those regulations.


"I feel it defames all MA when someone promotes themselves to a high rank or comes with a new MA style and starts promoting it as "the best". It is also extremely dangerous for those thinking they are getting quality SD training."

While I agree with you here, I do not think there is much that can be done about it. Apart from advising people to make sure they know their training is of a good standard.
 

jobo

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Many styles do focus on self defense scenarios. Many don't and are more competition/sport focused. I don't think you can say all martial arts are self defense, because I'm sure not all martial arts are necessarily self defense. Boxing, for example, probably isn't the best martial art to choose for self defense. In an unexpected situation, you'd probably do far more than punching.

From a truth in advertising point?
There is already laws regarding false information in adverts (negligent and fraudulent misrepresentation), however, for many martial arts it may be difficult to determine from a legal standpoint if something is in breach of those regulations.


"I feel it defames all MA when someone promotes themselves to a high rank or comes with a new MA style and starts promoting it as "the best". It is also extremely dangerous for those thinking they are getting quality SD training."

While I agree with you here, I do not think there is much that can be done about it. Apart from advising people to make sure they know their training is of a good standard.
Not disagreeing, in its entirety, but sports ma, is much More likely to result in a student being able to defend themselves effectively, sooner, than some cobbled together ultimate self defense program, or indeed some sort touch tma, program.

If a young man was to take up boxing, the fitness levels required to go even three rounds of real fighting and the skills required to hit and not get hit , will Put them in a much better place in say three months than several years of a self defense program or scenario Flow drill,based tma
Even sports tkw, that is often mocked, requires great fitness and lightning fast reflexes, the hardest I've ever been hit was a tkw, kick no one was getting up after that and I had a pad
 
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