OHHH I'd have LOVED to seen the reaction you got from the parents...
tournaments ain't what i wish they were
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OHHH I'd have LOVED to seen the reaction you got from the parents...
grydth
Senior Master
How we look at this issue tends to be colored by who we are and what we've experienced. Several of you are obviously dojo owners. I have no doubt each of you has true tales of disruptive parents who expect their lazy child to place first in every event, who think what they learned as a yellow belt 20 years ago trumps your 5th Dan, and who then don't pay...... etc x 1000. I respect your right, in any day, to maintain control over your event and to penalize or even eject bad apples.
But there is another side to the story.
I am a sports dad, with 4 kids. On my side of the railing, I've seen belt mills with unqualified instructors and phony contracts...... and an obviously hypocritical and corrupt tournament arrangement.
Maybe our classes of folk should talk more often.
Taking points away from my daughter means nothing to me when she is already being cheated. Maybe I am a "loudmouth" for complaining about it, but I wouldn't give you 2c for a parent that doesn't stick up for their kid. Being popular means nothing to me; protecting my family is my primary duty in life - and I will carry that out any time, any where and by any means necessary.
Chances are most people here are not that type of promotor.... or parent.
Well I'm a dojaang owner tournament promoter and parent of three and have been cheated at tournaments but all I can say to what you said is there is a proper time and a proper way to conduct yourself when you are around your child. Not every point is going to be seen all the time not every person is 100% correct all the time, but for the parent to start and scream and yell at the official in front of there child to me means one thing they are trying to live therelife though there child if not they would handle the stituation in a professional manner. Yournaments are more than a medal or a trophy it is a way to overcome the fear of testing your abilities and to build self estrem and discipline in one's life.
Just my nickel on the subject
And a damn GOOD nickel...
Laurentkd
Master Black Belt
I, as others have said here, remember the days when if a parent or coach argued with an official the compitor would receive a warning, or loss of a point. I never saw it as a problem. As Terry said, parents have to act civil at a sporting event regardless of the situation (as long as their child isn't getting hurt). And reall, if this tournament is dedicated to fairness Grydth's (very reasonable) issues should not be an issue, as there won't be obvious hypocritical and corrupt judging.
However, another option that I saw at a tournament once was a center "mission control" type table where the most senior instructors hung out. If a parent had an issue with how something was handled in a ring they were to come calmly to the "mission control" and state their case. They were not to say anything to the judges at the actual ring. I did not see a parent come to the senior instructors with any problems, so I don't know how well this would have really worked out, but I thought it was a nice theory. Also it let the school owners hang out and get to know each other, as well as watch each ring without having to actually judge (which is always nice).
On very rare, and very deserved, occasions, we've ejected loud-mouthed parents and disqualified their child... generally, one such event creates an impression that lasts for years. We try quite a few things first, including informing the parent that this is a possible consequence; it rarely comes to it, but mentioning the possibility - along with other instances when it really has happened - often has a significant calming effect.
Infinite
Brown Belt
We could also do acheivement awards.
1) Teacher of the Year award
2) Student of the Year award
3) Person who most imbodies the spirit of Bushido
4) Award for the most gracious competitor
Then each judge could have minor ribbons that he awards for various acts.
Like if he sees an act of sportsmanship he can give the person a ribbon of sportsmenship. Also a ribbon of honor and a ribbon of spirit.
We could go so far as to award the person with the most ribbons.
--Infy
1) Teacher of the Year award
2) Student of the Year award
3) Person who most imbodies the spirit of Bushido
4) Award for the most gracious competitor
Then each judge could have minor ribbons that he awards for various acts.
Like if he sees an act of sportsmanship he can give the person a ribbon of sportsmenship. Also a ribbon of honor and a ribbon of spirit.
We could go so far as to award the person with the most ribbons.
--Infy
grydth
Senior Master
Your nickel minus my prior 2c means I owe you 3 cents. Here it is:
My ex wife did yell at the "judges" from the other girl's dojo who were abusing their position and access in order to openly coach the other girl before the sparring finals. If you feel she didn't conduct herself properly - how about an opinion on the conduct of those "judges" and how professional they were? How much more damaging to the martial arts is blatant misconduct by dan ranked judges!
I spoke to nobody at the scene. After leaving, I sent a ferocious E-Mail to the promotor, the one with the highest opinion of their own character, and copied our dojo. Funny, I never heard anything back - so maybe one does have to scream at them openly to get any reaction. Just shows even a 6th dan can be gutless.....
Yes, tournaments do teach more than medals.... and my daughter took that trophy anyway. Afterwards, she asked me," But why did the judges want the other girl to win?" Do any of you have any good answer?
I can think of no better way to cut off a promising young kid's interest in the martial arts than to let her get openly cheated.....
Yeah, she learned that she can overcome even cheats... and that when she is confronted by disreputable adults her Dad will be there to rip them a new one.
Oh, and I always will be.
grydth
Senior Master
Question: what would it do to a child's self esteem if, through hard training, she was clearly the better fighter but her parents just silently let "judges" from the other kid's dojo steal the trophy from her?
What the child gets is the knowledge of knowing that all in life is not fair and sometimes to win we must loose, in defeat is the soul will endevour more than in victory. I tell my son's the same as my student the best fighter sometimes will not win in a sparring match to many unknown available. When you say cheat I se it as maybe they where out of view to see the point or maybe if you was using electronic scoring two out of three judges did not hit the buttom withen the proper time frame.
If atrophy is why you have your daughter in any kind of martial art program or for that matter any sport program then you are missing the bigger picture here.
I hope your child and yourself will find peace withen her training and she become all that she can.
Peace and goodwill toward you and your family
What brothers me about this whole statement is this
I can think of no better way to cut off a promising young kid's interest in the martial arts than to let her get openly cheated
This is where her Instructor and you as the parents explain that all is not fair in life and when life gives us bumps in the road we must overcome our emotion and keep training for tommorrow, for tommorrow may bring better results if we all work together for the future of our Art and society as a whole.
This is how I treat it withen my school and in my house.
I hope peace is with you and your family
Brandon Fisher
Master Black Belt
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PKC and USKA are the two organizations I would look at for tournaments and thats about it.
grydth
Senior Master
I honestly wish you and yours the best as well.
You - and the others here - clearly are not the type of promotor or school owner that I complain of. I hope none of you think I would tar your dojos with the misconduct of others.
But Terry, we are just different people. Explaining unfairness and the need to persevere is indeed an important parental duty......However, I think there is a greater duty to right that wrong, prevent that injustice, expose those cheats ......especially where children are concerned. To do otherwise allows the liars and cheats to flourish and may make our kids used to being victims.
Oh please do not think for a minute that I believe you are wrong here just we have a different approach to life being unfair and since I was not at the tournament I can only give a one sided perspective on the stituation. I believe you did what you felt was the best way of handleing it and with that being said I believe one must do what they feel is right at that particular time. I hope in all fairness you can take into consideration all the variable that might bring those decission. I also do not take to much personable here on this forum we all have our ways of doing things.
OP
bushidomartialarts
Senior Master
- Thread Starter
- #35
wow. a lot of great comments and good ideas. sorry i've been out of the conversation -- on my back with the martian death flu for a week.
it might be a good idea to look at other sports. little league is right out, what with how badly parents act at those games. gymnastics events aren't bad, and the events are even similar to kata competition. wrestling's a great place to look -- similar events, similar attitude. and most wrestling tournaments in oregon are well run and brook no nonsense.
wrestling tournaments use warnings, penalty points, disqualification and ejection for poor sportsmanship. i've seen wrestlers lose points because their coach acted poorly. i've seen coaches and parents ejected from the arena.
wrestling tournaments also often include the concept of team points -- you gain x points for each win, more for winning by a large margin or a pin.
one idea could be to grant each team a point for every win, and a point for each match a team member competes in -- provided the teammate and team display excellent sportsmanship throughout their match.
it might be a good idea to look at other sports. little league is right out, what with how badly parents act at those games. gymnastics events aren't bad, and the events are even similar to kata competition. wrestling's a great place to look -- similar events, similar attitude. and most wrestling tournaments in oregon are well run and brook no nonsense.
wrestling tournaments use warnings, penalty points, disqualification and ejection for poor sportsmanship. i've seen wrestlers lose points because their coach acted poorly. i've seen coaches and parents ejected from the arena.
wrestling tournaments also often include the concept of team points -- you gain x points for each win, more for winning by a large margin or a pin.
one idea could be to grant each team a point for every win, and a point for each match a team member competes in -- provided the teammate and team display excellent sportsmanship throughout their match.
