Too Lenient?

[dancingalone]

I am interested in instilling a certain culture of toughness and training intensity in my TKD class. I like to do a lot of line repetitions in this class because most everyone is a complete beginner and they need the practice. I also want them to push themselves regularly, to keep on going even if they feel a little challenged and tired.

At the moment, I tell everyone if they need a break, whether for water or just to catch their breath, they should just bow out without ceremony and go to the back of the room. Currently I just let them rejoin the line when they are ready.

This works ok, but I can't help but wonder if I am being a little too lenient? Physical fitness is one of our expressed goals in running the program. Should I just hold more forbid people from leaving the floor on their own in lieu of perhaps having slightly more frequent group breaks? Here's another thought: how about I continue to let them leave the floor but I DON'T let them rejoin the line until we finish entirely. This might impress on their minds that they are missing out on class by leaving and they might stick out the discomfort more until the group break.

Your thoughts?

 

[terryl965]

dancingalone sooner or later you must start to begin being harder on each of them. The faster this is done the beeter in my mind, we all need to be push to get in shape even the best athlete so class should be the same way.

 

[ATC]

We schedule breaks, and they are only 1 minute long. In a one hour class there may be 2 breaks but most times only 1. If a student is dizzy or feeling faint then of course they can bow out and get some water or sit out until they are feeling better. However we can tell if you need a break or not. If the class just started and you say you are dizzy or felling faint but you have not even broken a sweat then no you cannot take a break. Also if you are just tired and feel you want a break and ask but you can joke and laugh or hold a conversation with fellow students then no, no break. To just have students get a break any time they ask is just allowing laziness.

Everyone trains at a different intensity and your top students will fit in more quality reps at any drill at a high intensity without needed or wanting water.

Your middle students will also do a decent job as well but may not have the same intensity or quality that you top students have. They too will not need or ask for water.

However there will be some students that are considered at the lower level that will not or cannot do the drills at any quality or intensity that will look for every opportunity to skip out on a drill that they can.

Now lets look at what is really happening here. You have one set of students that are pushing hard and really doing a great amount of work. They are expending the most energy because of this and really depleting themselves but won't ask or stop for water and will make it until the scheduled break and still only take in little water and be ready for more. These students really do need water and or a break but are mentally stronger and know how to push themselves, plus they are use to pushing to the limits and the feeling is familiar to them

The middle section of students don't expend as much energy as the top students but still do a decent job of almost pushing to the limits but just need that little push from someone that the top students don't need. They to will make to the break without asking for water but may need it just as much as the top students maybe a little more as they are being push to limits that they did not know they had and may not be use to this push.

The last group of student and the smallest group at that don't put in the effort are not really sweating that hard, look sloppy and cheat the rep ask for the most breaks. They really don't even need the break but as soon as it get a little difficult they look for reasons to stop training. They are the weak minded and need someone to teach them that they actually have limits and it is OK to feel tired or out of breath. That if you keep pushing that you will get stronger and that what use to be hard will become easier. They don't understand that when you feel like you cannot do a single more rep that it is at that time that if you push and do 5 more reps that you get better. They feel that as soon as they are uncomfortable that it is time to stop. They don't understand that if that is the case then how do you get stronger.

If you can do 5 pushups and you only do 5 pushup you will only be able to do 5 pushups. You need to push past that 5 number and do 7 because those extra 2 are the only ones that count towards making you stronger or better. Once you can do 7 then you push for 10 and so on. But you have to push past what you feel comfortable at not stop.

Setting scheduled breaks will help keep the class organized and everyone on the same task. Those that need more will just up the intensity. If you are doing line drills and the drill is running kicks down the line, then those that need more will fit in more kicks and travel a shorter distance than the others.

OK I am off my soap box now.

 

[Balrog]

Run the class as a group, break them as a group. Do your floor drill, then do a minute of stretching where they can catch their breath during the stretch. Halfway through the class, perhaps, a one or two minute water break.

 

[bluewaveschool]

When I came back the instructor was letting them come and go as they wanted. I would say it contributed to the overall lack of effort/sloppiness of the students. Over a couple of weeks I moved it to one break of 2 minutes in the middle of class. No one asks anymore, they know the answer is wait for the break.

 

[Marginal]

Physical fitness is one of our expressed goals in running the program. Should I just hold more forbid people from leaving the floor on their own in lieu of perhaps having slightly more frequent group breaks? Here's another thought: how about I continue to let them leave the floor but I DON'T let them rejoin the line until we finish entirely. This might impress on their minds that they are missing out on class by leaving and they might stick out the discomfort more until the group break.

Your thoughts?

Performance degrades without adequate hydration. Depends on whether you want them tough (but kinda sloppy) or you want them to be fit and getting the optimum training benefit.

 

[WC_lun]

Hmmm seems I have a different tact with adults. If they push themselves they find they can do more, feel better, and get more information from the instructor. This incudes everyone from the 80 year old woman in class to the juijitsu black belt that competes regularly. They are adults, so they make the decision on how far they can push. I am also not a medical professional, so I will not make the decision on whether a student is faking it to get out of working, or seriously needs a break. I can tell if a guy is pulling punches, on the wrong angle, breaking his centerline, not falling correctly, etc. I would not presume to be able to tell an adult that he or she isn't working up to thier potential or is faking whether they felt dizzy or not. It isn't in my job description and a wrong decision on my part could have very bad results.

 

[dancingalone]

Hmmm seems I have a different tact with adults.

Bad assumption.

 

[WC_lun]

Ahh So you teach only kids? If that is so, then I can understand pushing them a little bit more. Be careful though. Unless you are a trained medical professional, bad things can still happen if you keep a kid from taking a break when they need one. I have to admitt, I find it a bit arrogant that some martial arts instructors think that also means they are qualified to know when a symtom is real or fake, and make possible bad decisions with thier students' health. I am not saying you do that. I am saying I believe it happens too often.

 

[dancingalone]

Ahh So you teach only kids? If that is so, then I can understand pushing them a little bit more. Be careful though. Unless you are a trained medical professional, bad things can still happen if you keep a kid from taking a break when they need one. I have to admitt, I find it a bit arrogant that some martial arts instructors think that also means they are qualified to know when a symtom is real or fake, and make possible bad decisions with thier students' health. I am not saying you do that. I am saying I believe it happens too often.

My TKD class is mixed. Minimum age of 8. Any kid under 14 training has to have a parent/guardian present also training with them.

And I guess I AM one of those arrogant instructors you are talking about. I've been around long enough to know when someone is dogging it instead of being near their exhaustion point. After all I know exactly in my head how long we've been going and how many repetitions we have made of each technique.

<shrugs> I am CPR certified and have regular, recurring training in emergency aid.

 

[WC_lun]

I am also CPR certified and have emergency training. I also know that there are medical problems that can lead to excercise of any degree being very taxing. For instance, enemia can lead to oxygen deprivation in the blood, leading to light headedness without a person breaking a sweat. Poor circulation due to something like a heart condition can also lead to light headedness, nasea, fatigue and other symptoms. Electrolight imbalance also has similiar symptoms. So does kidney failure. Any of these conditions can be acute onset, which means the student may not be aware of the problem. If the student is not aware of the problem, and you in your wisdom judge thier reaction on your reps or your judgement of thier physical ability, do you not see where that could lead to bad things? Even medical professionals can not can not diagnose if the symtoms are real, imagined, or something in between without tests, but you can, because you are a trained martial artist? Really? While I fully expect you are a great teacher and have only your students best interest at heart, I do not agree with this stance on pushing them.

I can whole-heartedly agree with making a student ask to leave the work out area or take a break. If they are "dogging it" a lot of students will hesitate to ask in front of thier peers.

 

[Tez3]

Training without water is asking for trouble, which ever way you do it, making sure people take on enough water throughout training is essential for best performance. drinking loads of water after a hard workout isn't good either, hydration should be steady throughout the class including beforehand. Education about drinking water should be included in class!

 

[ATC]

Ahh So you teach only kids? If that is so, then I can understand pushing them a little bit more. Be careful though. Unless you are a trained medical professional, bad things can still happen if you keep a kid from taking a break when they need one. I have to admitt, I find it a bit arrogant that some martial arts instructors think that also means they are qualified to know when a symtom is real or fake, and make possible bad decisions with thier students' health. I am not saying you do that. I am saying I believe it happens too often.

Hhmmm...That is funny. Because we have a full fledge MD as one of our black belts, 3rd DAN, and even he has no problems with a one hour class that is indoors with 1 break at 30 mins into the class. There are plenty of breaks to catch your breath and clam your heart rate as things are explained or between drills while the next drill is being taught. No one is having anyone run in the blazing sun, uphill with weights on for the entire hour with no break.

If you can't do 15 seconds of a line drill with multiple lines going each after the other giving you another 30 to 60 seconds in-between sets to allow each line to finish then you are soft or lazy.

You don't have to be a doctor to understand that if a kid or an adult for that matter needs water after a few line drills that they are just looking to get out of some work. Especially if it is always the same people. Common sense is all that is needed.

Been teaching at the same school for over 10 years and not once did we have anyone die, let alone pass out or even faint from scheduled water breaks in a 1 hour class that has 15 minutes of the class taken up with stretching. Not to mention all the time you can add up on the head instructor talking.

Again we do have the luxury of having our own school Doctor in house. He also travels with our competition team as well. Plus one of our instructors is a sports thereapist as well as myself being a physical trainer. Oh and one of our students parents that also volunteers his time is one of San Jose's finests (Fire Department EMT). We know what we are doing and saftey is a big consern.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Our club used to let students have a drink break whenever they felt it necessary and it just became a good excuse for lazy students to have several water breaks just to have a break when the going gets tough. We train for an hour and most students get there a half hour early to warm up and drinking is allowed during the warm up. I hydrate in the day leading up to class and during the warm up period and dont need a drink during the one hour class itself. If the class is a particularly hard one on a hot day we may get a dsignated drink break in the middle of the class. Its funny how young kids will run around all day at school hardly ever stopping for a "drinks break" and yet put them in a martial arts class where having a drink is an excuse for a break and suddenly they have to rehydrate every 5 minutes.

 

[WC_lun]

ATC, its cool you have an MD and a volunteer EMT to help out. Not every school has that luxary. While I've had no one die on me in the last 20 years, all of the medical conditions I mentioned above have happened and I have had people pass out in class. The head instructor of that particular school did think that because he was a martial arts teacher he has some special insight into the health of his students. Obviously he did not and some students paid a price for it.

I realize there are slackers out there. I could name them in my own school pretty easily. The person they hurt is themselves though. Given a choice between pushing a student hard when I may not know thier health as well as I might think or letting a slacker slide, I'm gonna pick the later. I have seen schools and been a member of a school that pushed too hard without safety being a concern until it was too late.

 

[Carol]

Devil's advocate here. I've been the one that has gone crashing to the mat due to dehydration, and my old Kenpo teacher (a former EMT) became very stern about me hydrating in class.

I am more prone to dehydration symptoms than other people. I found that out the hard way in class a few years ago, as well as on the mountainside last year (you'd think I would have learned my lesson the first time...LOL). I've found by experience the solution to that is more fluids, not less, and the result is improved performance and adherence to the task at hand, not the opposite.

Hydration becomes a matter of logistics. I have a 100 oz. Camelbak that I carry on hikes or long photography shoots, but that isn't very practical for an MA class. Instead, I keep a bottle of spring water with me and do my best to keep it out of everyone's way during class...ie, placing it next to the wall or next to a post.

If students are using water breaks as an excuse to not stay focused on the task at hand, that is a focus issue and not a hydration issue.

IMO, that is better dealt with by insisting on better focus and better adherence to the tasks at all times during class, and not by reducing the student's hydration -- which could their focus further.

But, keep in mind this is the opinion of a person who has never taught a class or earned any rank of significance.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Absent a medical issue or training extemes a 1 hour class should not require any breaks. Breaks are discouraged. I trust the adults judgement is they need one. Kids are admonsihed to get water and potty issues taken care of before class.

Kids know breaks are discouraged and this has lead to needing to mop the floor a couple of times..

 

[dancingalone]

I am also CPR certified and have emergency training. I also know that there are medical problems that can lead to excercise of any degree being very taxing. For instance, enemia can lead to oxygen deprivation in the blood, leading to light headedness without a person breaking a sweat. Poor circulation due to something like a heart condition can also lead to light headedness, nasea, fatigue and other symptoms. Electrolight imbalance also has similiar symptoms. So does kidney failure. Any of these conditions can be acute onset, which means the student may not be aware of the problem. If the student is not aware of the problem, and you in your wisdom judge thier reaction on your reps or your judgement of thier physical ability, do you not see where that could lead to bad things? Even medical professionals can not can not diagnose if the symtoms are real, imagined, or something in between without tests, but you can, because you are a trained martial artist? Really? While I fully expect you are a great teacher and have only your students best interest at heart, I do not agree with this stance on pushing them.

Yes, I can. It's a class hovering around 1 hr, 15 min. We have 1 generally untimed break after warmups and basics and another one later in the class. Political correctness aside, gimme a break! As I said, I know through experience when someone really needs rest or when they are merely feeling challenged. We have no one in the class with health problems, other than being out of shape, and I keep a close watch on those students. I started a recent thread about how to slow down the class for 1 particularly unfit teenager without embarrassing him not too long ago.

I can whole-heartedly agree with making a student ask to leave the work out area or take a break. If they are "dogging it" a lot of students will hesitate to ask in front of thier peers.

What do you think about not letting them return to the line until the drill is over if they decide to take a break?

 

[Stac3y]

I don't give my junior (12 and under) students any breaks in a one hour class; however, the way the class is set up, there are short periods when they are sitting down. They all know they can raise a hand and be excused to go to the restroom, though.

The adult class is 1.5 hours, and I usually give a one minute water break about halfway through.

Students are advised to pre-hydrate, and to visit the restroom prior to class. Of course, anyone feeling ill can bow out at any time.

 

[ATC]

You cannot hydrate on the spot. If you are dehydrated it is because you did not drink enough during the day. Drinking water at the point of dehydration will not do much for you at that moment, you are already dehydrated. Once you pass out or collapse from dehydration it is too late. Drinking hours before class is how you hydrate not during class. I could see if you were doing football training or military training where you are outside in pads or heavy clothing for multiple hours in the sun moving constantly. Then you have to drink often to stay hydrated.

Come to class dehydrated then you will not take class that day. Simple as that.

There is no way you should be needing water every 5 or 10 minutes during a 30 minute class when you are indoors with light clothing on and not in constant movement. Just not logical.

Let&#8217;s look at the typical class breakdown

1. Hydrated when class starts
2. Warm up then stretch for 15-20 minutes
3. Get a sip of water
4. Train for 30-35 good minutes
5. Break for water
6. Cool down stretch for 5 minutes
7. End class.
8. Drink all the water you want

If you really think someone can dehydrate themselves with that kind of schedule then something is wrong. They came to class dehydrated already and you as an instructor have done a poor job of educating your students about their bodies and how to take care of it as a martial artist. They should come to class ready to train not ready to hydrate.

Do not come to class when your only meal was 8 hours or more ago. Do not come to class if you have not had water or liquids since your breakfast time. What kind of person does that?!

Like I have stated, in over 10 years of assisting and teaching at that the current schools we have not had any one pass out, faint, or die from how we schedule our water breaks.