To Protect, Serve and Collect Revenue.

Bob Hubbard

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As a few folks know, I got a speeding ticket on my way out of Texas, courtesy of a Winfield TX cop. Unlike all the others who complain, I'll admit it. I was over the posted limit. The posted limit was 70mph. According to my dash board (digital) I was doing 75. According to my GPS, 73. But according to the nice officer with the fancy radar unit that I'm sure is 'calibrated and tested each morning', it said I was doing 80.

Funny how there were 5 cars around me passing me.
Funny how by the time the cop whipped out of the turn around, most of those cars were at least 1-2 miles ahead of me.

Cop had his traffic stop down to a science, well experienced.
I don't think he was there 5 minutes.

Mind you, he was very polite, very professional about it all.

But is sure felt shady. I was driving with traffic, hell I was being passed.
But I had NY plates, driving a Prius.

I could fight it, but that means going back, which would cost me 3 days minimal, plus 20+ hrs each way driving and at least 1 hotel stay. About $300 to fight it, and lose anyway. $200 to pay it off. Because a lying cop is an revenue collector rather than an honest law enforcement agent.

Stacked deck, well oiled machine, town that gets more than half it's revenue from traffic stops.

So, Officer, I'll send in your money. You try and stay safe whipping out like a crazed madman and keep doing that duty as an income stream for your town. Sure beats honest police work, like stopping crime. Might want to suggest to your payment folks they enter the 21st century and accept online payments. It's more efficient.
I get the last laugh though...NY doesn't recognize your points so all you did was sour me a little bit to ever moving to your area. Thffft!

And if anyone drives in Texas, keep it under the limit by at least 10 mph.
Especially on I30.

http://www.speedtrap.org/state/45/Texas
 

Archangel M

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Sure beats honest police work, like stopping crime.

I was sort of with you up to that little ditty Bob. Writing for 5 over is a tad petty IMO, but did you actually use the "why don't you go out and fight REAL crime" cannard???

Many of those coppers are assigned speed enforcement duty. And like it or not, traffic enforcement is part of our job. If all we did was "fight REAL CRIME" than people would be complaining about why we are not doing something about people speeding on Main St. or blowing the stop sign at 1st and Elm St.
 

Bill Mattocks

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I've been tagged in New Mexico on I-25 headed for Colorado. It was a local town cop where the town jurisdiction covered a couple miles of the interstate; he got me for 78 in a 75 (yes, we have 75 MPH limits in some parts of the West). Three miles over the limit? And it was a $200+ ticket. Outrageous!

I went back a few weeks later and drove around the 'town'. It consisted of about half-a-dozen houses. The police station / town hall was a double-wide trailer, and the police car was parked in front of a single-wide trailer, which is where I assumed the 'Chief of Police' lived.

Speed trap? You bet. Unfair? Well, in a general sense, yes.

However...

I was speeding; even if only by a little bit and only if 'everybody does it' (by the way, I try NOT to speed, but I will drive with the flow of traffic to avoid being a menace on the road. In this case I was alone, so my bad).

And looked at another way, this tiny little 'town' had a cop, which I seriously doubt they could afford if they didn't use the section of the interstate that they had annexed as revenue generation. He may be mostly busy writing tickets for speeding and not 'stopping crime', but then again, I doubt they have a huge crime problem there. But if something bad happens, or a traffic accident or natural disaster or who knows, at least they have a cop in the area. We're talking about a large state, mostly rural outside of Albuquerque and Santa Fe, which has like 12 state patrol officers on the road at any given time - for the entire state. I can imagine why the citizens of this dusty town want their own full time cop handy.

Then think about this. Most major cities have HUGE taxes on hotels and motels. Yeah. Like 10%, 15%, even more. It's nothing but revenue generation for the city from out of town people (mostly).

But that's how it goes.

Consider this a tax. One that you can voluntarily avoid paying - by not speeding.

Yes, it still sucks. But it is what it is.
 
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Bob Hubbard

Bob Hubbard

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An honest cop writes up the ticket honestly.
He's not just looking for easy pickings.

I had my cruise control on, constant speed. I constantly monitor my GPS as well, there is a constant 2 mph difference between the 2.
I was being passed by several other vehicles. That means they were going faster.
They all had TX plates though, so might contest things.

I stand by my statement that this was not an honest cop, just a cash collector.

Or.

Are you telling me that the radar units cops use are not accurate?
Are not 'calibrated and tested daily' (which another cop stated in court under oath about 15 years ago)
That it's more important to pull over the 75mph car than the 85mph semi?

Because what I got was hosed, and he wrote me up for 10 over, not the 5 I was actually going.
So he either lied, or had defective gear.

Or....he had an accurate reading, on another car, but he made a mistake and nailed me because he wasn't as accurate as he thought?

I was polite during the stop. I signed the ticket. I said thank you. I said sorry. I said 'yes sir' a few times.
If you stop me, you'll be talking about how syrupy polite I was for days afterwards.

But maybe he could have cut me a break. Maybe he could have been honest about his reading. Maybe he could have issued a warning.
Instead I got a $200 bill, in a speed trap, with a reputation for such, and a reputation for 'not getting paid on time' so that the fine doubles.

But I have learned my lesson. From now on, I'm locking my cruise control for 1 mile -under- the posted limit, slamming on my breaks to rapidly drop to posted speeds when it changes etc.
I'm also investing in a radar detector, radar jammer, and 4 way cameras to record speed, conditions and encounters.
I'll hold off on aft-firing photon torpedoes for now....I hear they overload the electrical system on older Prius's. ;)
 
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Bob Hubbard

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I've been tagged in New Mexico on I-25 headed for Colorado. It was a local town cop where the town jurisdiction covered a couple miles of the interstate; he got me for 78 in a 75 (yes, we have 75 MPH limits in some parts of the West). Three miles over the limit? And it was a $200+ ticket. Outrageous!

I went back a few weeks later and drove around the 'town'. It consisted of about half-a-dozen houses. The police station / town hall was a double-wide trailer, and the police car was parked in front of a single-wide trailer, which is where I assumed the 'Chief of Police' lived.

Speed trap? You bet. Unfair? Well, in a general sense, yes.

However...

I was speeding; even if only by a little bit and only if 'everybody does it' (by the way, I try NOT to speed, but I will drive with the flow of traffic to avoid being a menace on the road. In this case I was alone, so my bad).

And looked at another way, this tiny little 'town' had a cop, which I seriously doubt they could afford if they didn't use the section of the interstate that they had annexed as revenue generation. He may be mostly busy writing tickets for speeding and not 'stopping crime', but then again, I doubt they have a huge crime problem there. But if something bad happens, or a traffic accident or natural disaster or who knows, at least they have a cop in the area. We're talking about a large state, mostly rural outside of Albuquerque and Santa Fe, which has like 12 state patrol officers on the road at any given time - for the entire state. I can imagine why the citizens of this dusty town want their own full time cop handy.

Then think about this. Most major cities have HUGE taxes on hotels and motels. Yeah. Like 10%, 15%, even more. It's nothing but revenue generation for the city from out of town people (mostly).

But that's how it goes.

Consider this a tax. One that you can voluntarily avoid paying - by not speeding.

Yes, it still sucks. But it is what it is.

It pisses me off is what it is. But, I'll pay it, I'll vent a little, and in the future I'll be more careful.
Until I get a 80 in a 70 when I am only doing 65.
Then I'll get even more sarcastic.

It's not the ticket that annoys me, it's that little rounding up bit. It's only a $10 difference ($185 vs $195) but it still annoys me.
 

Bill Mattocks

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It pisses me off is what it is. But, I'll pay it, I'll vent a little, and in the future I'll be more careful.
Until I get a 80 in a 70 when I am only doing 65.
Then I'll get even more sarcastic.

It's not the ticket that annoys me, it's that little rounding up bit. It's only a $10 difference ($185 vs $195) but it still annoys me.

I'm hip.
 

Bill Mattocks

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Are you telling me that the radar units cops use are not accurate?
Are not 'calibrated and tested daily' (which another cop stated in court under oath about 15 years ago)

Yes. It's a load of hooey.

If you have the time and inclination, you can fight most radar-gun speeding tickets in court and win. I saw many cases lost on simple technicalities. For example, serve a subpoena on the department for their radar training records, and compel the training officer, shift commander, and everyone else involved in the radar certification process to testify. If you can establish a break in the chain of radar gun certification or officer certification to operate the radar gun, the DA will dismiss at the request of the PD. The idea is you get the cop on the stand and say "when were you certified?" and "when was the radar gun you were using certified" and establish that one or both are either not up to snuff, or done improperly. Many small departments do not keep on training, certifications, and unit calibration certs. When you subpoena the records, they know what's coming next and if they're out of compliance, they'll drop charges to keep from having many tickets they've written impeached in court. That's just one method, there are lots of them. But you have to have the time, money, and inclination to fight. In your case, as an out-of-state person, it's probably not worth it. Guess what? They know that.
 

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I would say "that depends" Bill. In a case like this where we are talking a 5-10 MPH difference I can see where attacking the radar equipment could work, but (in my state at least) radar is simply a verification (or is supposed to be) of a visual speed estimation. All radar is supposed to be is a verification of that estimate.

Again..in this case that would probably be a good strategy, but not in all cases.
 

Bill Mattocks

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I would say "that depends" Bill. In a case like this where we are talking a 5-10 MPH difference I can see where attacking the radar equipment could work, but (in my state at least) radar is simply a verification (or is supposed to be) of a visual speed estimation. All radar is supposed to be is a verification of that estimate.

Again..in this case that would probably be a good strategy, but not in all cases.

Yeah, but in cases like yours, the "Oh, so you have calibrated eyeballs, do you? Let's find out." defense works every time.

And as to the radar itself; really it does not matter what the speed variation is; if the unit has not been calibrated in a year and the manufacturer recommends calibrating it every time it's used, for example, or the person doing the calibration is not qualified to do so, etc, it's 'case dismissed' 100% of the time. "I verified my visual speed estimate with this radar gun." "Oh, the one you're not qualified to use, according to your own department's records and requirements, that one?"
 

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I actually have a speed estimation cert card. States that I can accurately estimate speed to within 5 mph.

So in a case like this, sure there is some defensive "wiggle room". In the case where I charged a guy with reckless driving for 70 in a 30....without radar....that defense didn't work.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk
 

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For our department we have calibration on the radars once a year and the records are all kept. For certification it is a one time deal and for the time being there is no "keeping current" etc.

As to testing daily, yep every time I get into my patrol car I hit the "test" button and watch it go through it's little test and every time I return the car I hit the test button again and record it on my daily log. It's habit and takes less than a second to hit the button and only about 10 seconds for the unit to self-test.

So to have an officer testify that they do that daily does not strike me as odd or dishonest when you understand what it entails to test it daily. Takes me longer to put on my seatbelt than to run the radar test.
 

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I always caution people even around where I live to NOT speed through any of the small towns in surrounding areas because the police there are VERY strict as to speed laws etc. When you are in a bigger city you are more apt to get a warning if you are pulled over by a regular patrol unit (not traffic specific) because they just want to stop the behavior, but don't have the time to write the tickets and spend time in courts over it.
 

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It's been a while since I've worked any traffic, but our units came with the tuning forks. Any radar enforcement had to be logged on a radar sheet that included the speed registered by the tuning forks. If the readout matched the fork speed there wasn't much to attack.
 

Bill Mattocks

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For our department we have calibration on the radars once a year and the records are all kept. For certification it is a one time deal and for the time being there is no "keeping current" etc.

As to testing daily, yep every time I get into my patrol car I hit the "test" button and watch it go through it's little test and every time I return the car I hit the test button again and record it on my daily log. It's habit and takes less than a second to hit the button and only about 10 seconds for the unit to self-test.

So to have an officer testify that they do that daily does not strike me as odd or dishonest when you understand what it entails to test it daily. Takes me longer to put on my seatbelt than to run the radar test.

Every department is different, and sometimes department regulations don't match manufacturer recommendations. The defense doesn't have to prove a thing, only to introduce reasonable doubt. If the manufacturer's guide says send back to factory for recalibration every other year but the department says 'just press the calibration button and log that you did it', that's something that can be used to introduce doubt in the accuracy of the equipment. Not saying it's inaccurate, saying it's a wedge to create doubt.
 

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It's been a while since I've worked any traffic, but our units came with the tuning forks. Any radar enforcement had to be logged on a radar sheet that included the speed registered by the tuning forks. If the readout matched the fork speed there wasn't much to attack.

Gotta think like a defense attorney. There all all kinds of things to attack. Don't have to prove any of it, just create reasonable doubt.
 

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And -- by working traffic enforcement, we do fight real crime. Like, say, unlicensed drunk drivers. Or narcotics. Or murder.

Traffic enforcement is unpopular. It's not most cops favorite thing, either... but it is a means to make contact with people, and to find out what they're up to.

Was your ticket cheap and questionable? Because I know you and trust you -- yes. Could the cop have decided to ticket the out of state car because you're less likely to challenge it? Absolutely.

But should you tar every cop doing traffic enforcement for the actions of that guy? Maybe we should assume that all photographers are sneaking nude shots while models are changing, too? After all, a few have done it.
 
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Bob Hubbard

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I don't believe I did the blanket tar here, if I've given that impression I apologize. Most cops I've dealt with have been ok. The fact that I made it home without a second ticket also highlights in part the other cops honesty. (I must have passed 100 at least. Holiday weekend and all). This is also the first ticket I've gotten in almost 20 years. Again, safe driver.

As to dirty photographers...I'm dealing with 1 now. That's a whole different headache. And tarring him....would be enjoyable. :D
 

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I would say "that depends" Bill. In a case like this where we are talking a 5-10 MPH difference I can see where attacking the radar equipment could work, but (in my state at least) radar is simply a verification (or is supposed to be) of a visual speed estimation. All radar is supposed to be is a verification of that estimate.

Again..in this case that would probably be a good strategy, but not in all cases.

I do believe that's how it is in most states. There was an Ohio case in the last 2 or 3 years where an officer successfully convicted someone based solely on his visual assessment of the speed. The officer was able to point to his training, experience, and I believe may have been called upon to demonstrate his ability.

Relying on many of the on-line or otherwise available guides to defending yourself in a speeding ticket is akin to taking a guy who read The Art of War and A Book of 5 Rings and handing him a sword to go against an actual trained swordsman. It might work -- but odds are pretty good that it won't. For example, Virginia does not require recertification of the officer -- ever, after initial training. As to the radar unit... you might get lucky, but most are pretty good about keeping them up.
 

Bill Mattocks

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I do believe that's how it is in most states. There was an Ohio case in the last 2 or 3 years where an officer successfully convicted someone based solely on his visual assessment of the speed. The officer was able to point to his training, experience, and I believe may have been called upon to demonstrate his ability.

No doubt. But it's easier to impeach that kind of claim than to establish it. Again, the defense doesn't have to prove the cop can't do it. They only have to establish doubt.
 

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No doubt. But it's easier to impeach that kind of claim than to establish it. Again, the defense doesn't have to prove the cop can't do it. They only have to establish doubt.

That presumes you take it to circuit court (or its equivalent) with a jury, rather that just traffic court where you only have a judge. Of course, if you lose, your sentence is almost certainly going to be more than in a traffic court.
 

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