To Cdhall...

[Marginal]

I really don't see much a conflict between a healthy follower of a religion and doing a MA. Where the friction arises IMO is when people who are insecure start trying to use their diety of choice as a crutch or an excuse for why they elect to live the way they do etc. At that point it goes from honoring their chosen to trying to weasel into a supreme bieng's good graces.

Most of the Christians who are against people practicing martial arts, evolution, other faiths etc I've enountered seem to just be deeply insecure in their own faith. They can't identify with their chosen diety. They have no real conception of what it is they're trying to worship, and they don't actually trust their God. They do nothing but fear a giant fickle jerk up in the sky who puts you on the gravy train for awhile, but is really just looking for any excuse to send you to hell. The minset's deeply unhealthy and fanatisicm grows from it like flowers from manure.

It produces thoughts like, "God allowed the events on 9/11 to come to pass due to the diminishing Christian influence in the country." In essence, saying that God's a petty bastard that likes to punish people who don't think exactly like He wants them to. Thoughts that in short, manage to make all Chrisitians look bad in the process. That IMO is not religious thought, it's not piety, it's disease. (Makes one wonder if they're totally aphasiac to words like love, mercy, faith, tolerance etc...)

Along those lines, I don't see much coming out of questioning what a specific diety wants from you personally. It's not a bartering session. It's really a means to self-improvement. If MA helps you improve yourself/help others, there's no justifiable way to fear that you're going to be punished for it.

 

[Bod]

He thinks I'm flirting with "magic."

Man! God drops you a job and money and a new home and everything with a wave of his wand and martial arts is magic?

Martial arts being "magic" is marketing hype.

Martial arts is huge amounts of hard work for small rewards. That is the opposite of magic which promises the opposite.

I turn the other cheek constantly, I fogive my brother 7777 times. And I'm not even a Christian. And I practise martial arts.

If you sincerely believe that God gave you a body so that you could sit, bloated, in your underpants, watching a TV pastor, then good. Otherwise use what God gave you to the best of your ability for your family and friends.

 

[cdhall]

Originally posted by cdhall

...Since I became a Christian last year I am doing pretty good at listening to "that little voice" and getting impressive results.

I am also looking for little meanings in stuff and trying to get lessons from them. The guy who actually was the "last link in my chain" says this is wrong, but I have some good evidence to dispute him. He thinks I'm flirting with "magic." It is a shame we don't get along better....

Bod,

No, no. Not Martial Arts are "magic," he tells me that looking for meaning in everything, taking stuff as "signs from God" and then trying to "manipulate all this to my advantage" is dangerously close to magic. He says, among other things, that I should not "test God." And that I should not go into a situation hoping God will work it out "right." It is pretty confusing.

He also says that Christians are to make specific prayer requests of God and not just generically pray for "good stuff."

As I said, we don't get along well, I don't see him hardly anymore. We used to see each other about 3 times/week.

I'm trying to learn about all this stuff and I think most of the Christians I have ever met are far too concerned with you seeing what they are doing than in doing what needs to be done.

Obey the Lord and set a good example for others to follow. I think I could find quotes for this, but I won't use them. This is what I'm working on doing. I don't care if anyone sees me giving money to the poor or not, if I am doing what I should be doing God has promised to provide. I think that is right. It is beyond me how my buddy interprets this against me as "magic."

Sometimes I think he is a master of the "Straw Man" logical fallacy. He seems to me to constantly contradict himself and change the subject, but he brought me here so I think it is also good of me to find ways not to split with him completely. We kind of leave each other alone.

Does this make any sense? I did debate with him about Karate once and he said he thought it was good. But I think he was thinking of the "Karate Kid" we don't seem to have much of that philosophical stuff in Mr. Parker's Kenpo the way it is taught to me. So he is not against Karate, he just doesn't want me trying to bribe favors out of God I think.
:asian:

 

[Shinzu]

Originally posted by Bod


If you sincerely believe that God gave you a body so that you could sit, bloated, in your underpants, watching a TV pastor, then good. Otherwise use what God gave you to the best of your ability for your family and friends.

i like that one!!

 

[Bod]

Ah well, I missed the point entirely.

The sparrows of the field neither sow, nor do they reap, yet God makes sure they are fed. Is that magic?

Whether we are judged by God and found wanting, or judged by ourselves and found wanting, our motives will be known and judged.

Jesus said: judge ye not others, lest you so be judged.
Turning it around, I think it's also important that we don't do good works, just so that we are judged well by others. Although I am not a Christian, I know that Jesus praised the widow's mite. What he praised was her motive.

 

[Nightingale]

Carbon -

I think its important to differentiate between the people who let religion blindly lead them, and those who let religion open their eyes enough so they can follow the right path on their own.

My personal views:

I'm not absolutely certain, but I can make an educated guess that there is a god. there is simply too much order in this chaos that we call life for it to be otherwise. I judge my morality by my own gut feelings rather than any commandments, and I try to make sure that my actions do the most amount of good and the least amount of harm for the most people. I don't lie, because lies tend to come back and bite you in the **** when you're least expecting it, and if you tell the truth, you never have to rely on your lousy memory. I help people when I can, and pray to whatever deity happens to be listening when I can't.

Personally, I am a scholar of religions, and I tend to find so much good in all of them, and find them all incredibly fascinating. I don't feel educated enough to be able to say that one group is right and all the others are wrong, and unfortunately, religions tend to be mutually exclusive...you can't be both a christian and a wiccan or a jew or a hindu or a muslim. Honestly, I believe that we all worship the same deity (at least, those of us who walk on the light side) and we just tend to go about it in different ways.

but that's just me.

I could be wrong.

I guess we all find out sooner or later.

-Nightingale


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

[chufeng]

Interesting discussion...

I am a Christian...I'm not afraid to admit it...I call myself a Zen Christian when people ask, but that is not what this forum is about...I will talk about it off line, though...

Regardless of religious background; to "turn the other cheek" requires that one has the capacity to really hurt the offending party. Turning the other cheek if you are weak and can't defend yourself anyways is just being weak..."turning the cheek" only has significance if one is actually withholding a potentially lethal force...it is the withholding of force as an expression of compassion for the person who would do you harm that shows a level of understanding the deeper levels of martial training.

So, my point is simply this...training in a martial art leads one to a deeper understanding and a greater appreciation of HOW you relate to those around you...Brothers and Sisters joined by a common "???" (fill in the ?)

:asian:
chufeng

 

[cdhall]

Originally posted by chufeng

Interesting discussion...

I am a Christian...I'm not afraid to admit it...I call myself a Zen Christian when people ask, but that is not what this forum is about...I will talk about it off line, though...

Regardless of religious background; to "turn the other cheek" requires that one has the capacity to really hurt the offending party. Turning the other cheek if you are weak and can't defend yourself anyways is just being weak..."turning the cheek" only has significance if one is actually withholding a potentially lethal force...it is the withholding of force as an expression of compassion for the person who would do you harm that shows a level of understanding the deeper levels of martial training.

So, my point is simply this...training in a martial art leads one to a deeper understanding and a greater appreciation of HOW you relate to those around you...Brothers and Sisters joined by a common "???" (fill in the ?)

:asian:
chufeng

I think you are right. Someone else posted a link to a websight that made a very similar point. I am hoping that is correct because even before I became a Christian, I thought that was as well. Somewhere I posted that I think this also supports the "peace through strength" theory that I also think makes sense.

I don't watch enough Kung Fu films, but didn't Bruce Lee always turn the other cheek at least once in his movies.

I think that was a theme of his. He got pushed around for half the film until he decided to strike back.

Thanks again to everyone for their insights. If you didn't lend any insights, I'll let you figure out who you are without my help.
:asian:

 

[DireWolf]

I judge my morality by my own gut feelings rather than any commandments, and I try to make sure that my actions do the most amount of good and the least amount of harm for the most people.

That's very much how I see it too. Fortunately the ethos of Christianity fits in exactly with how I feel. And when I say Christianity I mean the words of Christ over those of Paul, or Peter, or anyone else. I know people who follow the words of Paul more than they follow the words of Jesus, yet call themselves Christian. Christian=follower of Christ. 'Nuff said

I have been persecuted by a number of people in the faith about my martial arts. I always challenge them (to mortal combat!!!) (not really ) to explain their views of the MA to me and I answer them according to my own experience and knowledge. I've found that the vast majority of them speak from ignorance...they heard a preacher somewhere saying "Martial Arts is bad...M'kay?" and haven't thought much beyond that point. I like to treat all people with respect and I respect that only the frothing fanatical fringe refuses to try and learn given the opportunity.

Cdhall ...

He also says that Christians are to make specific prayer requests of God and not just generically pray for "good stuff."

As far as I understand it you are to "petition God in all things". He wants to be in every part of your life. I ask God to be in everything I do...I hate the thought of being without him for a second. Don't let others dictate what is right or wrong. Seek God with an open heart and listen when he speaks. I have found that what one person believes to be not Godly has helped another find the Lord. Christianity is all about your relationship with God!

Peace!

:yinyang;
DW

 

[KennethKu]

Self defence is necessary for survival of both the individual and the specie. Christianity is not against self-defence. Turning the other cheek is a figure of speech to emphasize tolerance. Should not be taken literally. IMO

Just b/c one trains in the art of fighting, does not mean you have to deploy such skills. Just b/c we have nuclear weapons, does not mean we are going nuclear at every turn. :asian:

If you look at MA as a performance art, a skill, and you are training to achieve performance excellence, it is a lot easier to reconcile with your Christian teaching of not to inflict pain and suffering, and to love thy neighbors.

 

[fringe_dweller]

Being a Christian myself I've had a few concerns about the study of ki that the higher level black belts do in my art (hapkido). Is it tapping into some power that's inconsistent with my faith (rhetorical question)?
I guess what it comes down to is that I'm not studying that at the moment and it will be a while before I get there so I'll worry about it then.
I know what I've outlined is not quite what you were talking about but it's the same principle. In your situation I would have to say that doing MA training would be *helping* you turn the other cheek. With a higher level of skill comes the ability to avoid confrontation more effectively.

Respectfully

 

[cdhall]

Just wanted to let you know that I'm still in agreement with the previous 3 posts and I appreciate all the insights and perspectives.
Thank you all.
:asian:

 

[cdhall]

I just briefly brought this up to my Pastor this AM and he pretty much agreed that weathering insults is what is referred to by turning the other cheek and that you are "preserving life" by not letting someone kill or harm you so you can/should defend yourself.

He did caution me not to Kill however.

I told him not to worry though, that my system has Many options before Death and that the higher you go, the more likely it is that you will never have to kill anyone.

So I think I have resolved this dilemma. I will probably compile some written material such as quotes from this thread... for my notebook just so I have the material to look back on.

Thanks everyone.

 

[M F]

Obey the Lord and set a good example for others to follow.

If you live by this statement, you are doing as well as anyone can hope for.

My perspective on your original question is this.
I have a wife and an eight month old daughter. It is my number one responsibility in life to protect and provide for these two. Kenpo, among other things, gives me the ability to do this. If I could not protect them, I would be failing in my moral responsibilities. Very simple in my eyes.