Life Lessons from Cops

[jkn75]

The scenario: The victim was carjacked by a gang banger. The gang banger put a gun on the victims neck. The gang banger got distracted by a woman passing by. The victim hit banger's arm, knocking the gun out of the gang banger's hand and more importantly, away from his neck. The victim then defended his life against (knocked the crap out of) the gang banger. He punched him, hit him with a bottle, etc. The victim then made the gang banger walk to a store, so the victim could call the police.

What have we learned?
1. Unfortunately it was Cops, so we only get the description from the victim and the police but no video.
2. The gun was knocked far away, so the victim hit him, hard.
3. The gang banger lost three teeth which were broken off at the gumline, so the victim hit him, hard.
4. The victim's middle two knuckles were bloody which means, he hit wrong or hit the gang banger's teeth.
5. The cops were laughing their a$%es off at the gang banger. Their favorite part was the victim making the gang banger walk to the store.
6. The store was a donut shop and there were no police. (this is a joke. I have several police officer friends, they get the joke).
7. According to the gang banger, the victim assaulted him and he had done nothing wrong.

I am willing to bet the victim had martial arts training. Either that or a big brass set. Either way he was alive and other than a bloody hand and emotional scars, was unscathed.

 

[Angus]

Cool story.

I don't mean it as a counter-point, because I'd probably react the same way, but what was the victims legal situation afterwards? That's what I'm curious about. Was he charged with anything or sued by the gang banger [ ]?

You probably don't know, but I'm curious nevertheless. Just something you have to wonder about these days, as stupid as it may be.

 

[Damian Mavis]

I think when a gun is pointed at you, you have sufficient cause to use lethal force to defend yourself no?

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by Damian Mavis

I think when a gun is pointed at you, you have sufficient cause to use lethal force to defend yourself no?

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

I'm pretty sure that qualifies as a situation to use lethal force, if it doesn't, what in the world does?!?!


7sm

 

[Angus]

Like I said, I would do the same thing! But, I've heard cases that were worse (attackers suing because they were injured after shooting/stabbing a victim, etc, and winning), so I was just curious. Like I said, it was not a counterpoint, as I would probably do the same or more. I was just wondering!

 

[Bod]

Once the gun is gone it becomes tricky.

If the gun is in the vicinity then you still have a lethal situation I guess. Also if the guy had a gun, then it could be argued that he had the intention to use lethal force before the gun was removed from him, and it wouldn't be totally unreasonable to assume he
still had lethal intention.

However, once the man is subdued, or the risk is gone, any further action would be illegal. Once the 'victim' makes a ctizens arrest, he may have extra yardage, to keep the aggressor subdued, but this would I think depend on locality.

Note the guy didn't use lethal force. Once the aggresor was subdued he called the cops and didn't keep beating him. This was both moral and legal, so I hope no harm comes to him.

 

[lvwhitebir]

Originally posted by Angus

but what was the victims legal situation afterwards? That's what I'm curious about. Was he charged with anything or sued by the gang banger

If he does sue, I hope the judge kicks his butt, too and embarrasses the hell out of him for being so stupid! In this world of 'It ain't my fault', I wouldn't be surprised if he did sue though.

WhiteBirch

 

[jkn75]

Unfortunately, it's Cops so there is no follow up. So here's my opinion: Whether the gun was available or not is irrelevant. The victim in this case needed to defend his life. Once the gun was knocked away, the victim could not have known if the assailant (mr gangbanger) had another weapon or would continue the assault. Once the threat was eliminated, the victim stopped and called police. In doing that did he use reasonable force? Probably.

Depending on the state there is the doctrine of retreat. Could the victim have retreated safely? No, because I think he had been pulled out of his car when he defended himself and he was in an alleyway behind a shopping center. There was no safe place to retreat to, as the store was quite a distance away. There were no open doors and we don't know whether the victim was familiar with the area.

Finally, you can sue anyone for anything. However, this case should be tossed as being frivolous pretty quickly. Unfortunately, the judge may see an issue with the victim's retaliation depending on the victim's background. If he was in martial arts he may be held to higher standard of responsibility. Therefore hitting the guy with the bottle may be excessive depending on when it occurred. The ultimate issue though is that the victim's life was threatened and a victim has a lot of leeway when defending life.

Just my opinion though, I could be wrong.

 

[feintem]

I would rather be judged by twelve, Than carried by six.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Damian Mavis

I think when a gun is pointed at you, you have sufficient cause to use lethal force to defend yourself no?

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

Quote from a Police Officer:
"Excuse me son, but how do you know that the gun was real?"

Surprised me:
"Well I was looking down the barrel and the safety was off. It looked real to me." Still very surprised.

Officer:
"Well how do you know it was real and not a fake or a toy or loaded with blanks?"

Upset me:
"Like I said I was looking down the barrel and all is friends freaked like S&*^ when he pulled it out." Getting more upset by the moment. Still on the adrenaline rush.

Officer (* In condescending tone*):
"Hmm Sounds to me like it was not real, and that you are over reacting. I just do not know how you could know it was real?"

Over the top me:
"The same way I know yours is a real gun. But, since the one pointed at me was not real I guess yours is not real either!" Screaming and swinging while stepping in towards the police officer.

ME: Being checked and stopped by three his fellow officers before I can commit a crime of assaulting an officer of the law.

ME: I turned to the Sergeant and ask him to take all of his officers away. I also told him I would not ever require his services again. I would take care of it myself.

Sergeant:
I do not think you really mean that. Calm down.

ME:
I will calm down as soon as you get a real police officer here.

The police then continued to ask questions of the other witnesses and then filed a report the next day.

The Point I am trying to make is that, depending on how stupid the person who is interpreting the law will determine if you see time in jail right away or later from the District Attorney, if charges a filed against you for assault.

The Thug said you hit him, he is bleeding and you show evidence of hitting him. Where is the gun?? What no gun? Then How do you know it was real? We cannot have people thinking they see something and then taking the law into their own hands.

As for the being tried by 12 versus being carried by six. I personally agree. Yet, I can and have seen it cost people lots of money. They filled Bankruptcy, lost their homes, etc.,..., .

Why you say, because the defended themselves. The DA and Judge thought the person involved should have the thieves just take what they want, since that is why you have insurance.

I know it does not make sense, but then again I have found that a lot of things do make sense to me.

Just some experience and thoughts.

Train Well and be Well and yes it was good the 'Victim was alright and survived.'

Rich

 

[jkn75]

Sometimes this is the case, Rich. There are bad cops. (sounded like a real bad one).

Unfortunately what the cops see isn't what really happens. If you defend yourself you may find yourself in jail. If people see the person getting hit, they may think he is the victim because they missed what started it. So even witnesses are unreliable. Depending on what witnesses show up to court, there could be problems also.

 

[lvwhitebir]

Originally posted by Rich Parsons

Quote from a Police Officer:
"Excuse me son, but how do you know that the gun was real?"

It doesn't matter for self defense. What the cop was doing was stupid and wrong. He could arrest you all he wants, but your lawyer will get you out fast. It's not uncommon for the officer's to arrest you anyways, until things get sorted out. They're not saying what you did was expressly wrong, they just don't know and need to make sure.

The laws here say that if you rob a convenience store with an unloaded or fake gun, it's just as if was real. If someone dies, it's murder (or whatever variation they call it). So why would self defense make it any different? You don't have to "know" that it's real, just have that impression, and have a fear for your life.

WhiteBirch

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by lvwhitebir

It doesn't matter for self defense. What the cop was doing was stupid and wrong. He could arrest you all he wants, but your lawyer will get you out fast. It's not uncommon for the officer's to arrest you anyways, until things get sorted out. They're not saying what you did was expressly wrong, they just don't know and need to make sure.

The laws here say that if you rob a convenience store with an unloaded or fake gun, it's just as if was real. If someone dies, it's murder (or whatever variation they call it). So why would self defense make it any different? You don't have to "know" that it's real, just have that impression, and have a fear for your life.

WhiteBirch

Very true and well said.

7sm

 

[Cthulhu]

I've heard some good advice about police officers that I still heed to this day:

There are two things you don't ask police officers for advice about: 1) The law and 2) firearms.

Cthulhu

 

[Rich Parsons]

First, The example I gave was one of many interacts I have had with police officers. There are many GOOD police officers out there and it only takes a very small few to make them look bad.

I have been a witness and have been in trouble for people only seeing half of the event, so I understand all about the Witness issue.


Where I live, it is a felony if the person beleives your finger in your jacket to be a gun/weapon.

Now, for another Ugly moment from my life.
After I filled for a divorce from my ex-wife, her boy friend called up and threatened me. I called 911 for the police to come out. When he,the soon to be ex's boyfriend, showed up I called 911 again. They told me they would send out an officer Tommorrow to talk to me about false calls to the 911 system, "No guy would call for help", she then told me if I Called again for the third time, she would send out an officer the arrest me that night. I replied, please do for than at least I will be able to get some help. (* My main goal was not to go to jail over this. She was not worth the effort or the concern, that I would risk any action that might lead me to jail. *)

When the female Officer showed up, she was not told that I had called only that there was a 'domestic' in progress, she took one look at my ex to be and her boyfriend, and then at me. She pulled her gun and asked me to get down on the ground. I did. Was I being threatening before? Nope just sitting on the front porch. SHe felt threatened by my size. 6'3" (190.5 cms) and 245 lbs. (110 kgs). I was hand cuffed an put in the back of the car until back up came. The only thing she told me was to 'shut-up' and stay quiet. After discussion with the ex to be she wanted to leave. I asked for a report so I could get a Personal Protection Order. The female office told me no, that it was for women only. I then turned and asked the Sargeant if I could get one. He told the female Officer to write up a report.

Many people would be outraged at such a treatment. The only thing my Lawyer could do was to call and complain because it took the officer 5 days to file her report. My Police friend all thought she might have been a little to agressive, but if she felt threatened, she needed to control the situation. No bad feelings all is well now.

So, I guess, I am trying to say yes there are Good Police Officers and Bad Police Officers, sometimes good Police are put into Ugly situations and do the best they can.

Sorry for the Rant

Rich

 

[Damian Mavis]

Screw that. I prolly would have gotten shot over that one.... It was your house right? They were tresspassing right? And you got arrested?!?!?! I would have told the officer she was incompetent and to do her freaking job right. No I prolly wouldn't have done that but you are awfully forgiving, I would have been waaaay pissed.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Damian Mavis

Screw that. I prolly would have gotten shot over that one.... It was your house right? They were tresspassing right? And you got arrested?!?!?! I would have told the officer she was incompetent and to do her freaking job right. No I prolly wouldn't have done that but you are awfully forgiving, I would have been waaaay pissed.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

Thanks for your feedback, and yes I thought about all you said and more, I just did not act upon it.

Rich

 

[Damian Mavis]

Well didn't mean to insinuate you handled it wrong, I just hate bad cops and the whole topic gets me angry. And you are more forgiving than I am.... but that's usually seen as a good thing. I'm still looking for revenge for the time they threw me in a jail cell after smacking me around when I was 17. By revenge I mean something totally non violent.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

 

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by feintem
I would rather be judged by twelve, Than carried by six.

I would rather hurt and wound 12 people than kill one.

Mostly because it's a heck of a lot more fun...

 

[Bod]

To plagiarise a chap from another forum whose name I can't remember:

I would rather be judged by twelve and gangraped in the showers by twenty four for the next forty eight years, than be carried by six.

I think.