TKD Sparring - Dealing with the Dirty Tricks

[Rumy73]

As my TKD journey evolves, I am seeing more and more of the negative, overly competitive side and a huge lack of the spiritual, positive side. Last week, I was sparring with guy my age (30s-40s). In order to avoid being counter attacked, he would deliberately fall down after kicking. In one match, he did this about half a dozen times. After the match ended, he raised his hands in "victory" and let out a yell. His performance was poor and his fighting style lacked honor, in my opinion. Further, he demonstrated no humility even if he did "win" the match. This kind of attitude I find to be the prevailing one in TKD circles. Here is where the hyper-competitive, sporting-side has superceded the spiritual side of martial arts. I asked myself: is winning so important that dirty tricks are OK?

 

[andyjeffries]

Personally I would have said something, just to ensure he knew that it was noticed: "Why are you raising your hand? You spent more time on the floor than your average Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu player"

Actually having a typically british sense of humour I probably would have just openly laughed at him when he raised his hand and yelled.

Personally I think fairness and playing by the rules is a lot more important than winning (and I'd stick up for that viewpoint if someone tried to cheat).

Note though that I don't consider jamming to be cheating, that's just gamesmanship ;-)

 

[Manny]

Something I really mis is the old way of doing sparring, you know no hogu maybe just the shin/instep pads and each competitor trying to nail each other with nice techs, even using hands. I really dislike the new form od doing sparring, just bobbing and steping around, maybe one or two kicks and then the clinch. Personaly I like to take some risks thats why I use combos and use the spining kick ofthen, I really lie the fluid sparring of the old days.

Manny

 

[Cyriacus]

Where I Train, there can be some Dirty stuff in Sparring.
Not that kind of Dirty though.

Youd be amazed how easy it is to sneak in Knife Hand Strikes, Ridge Hands, Round Elbows, Leg Kicks, Palm Heel Thrusts, Vertical Elbows, and other things, in ways you wouldnt even notice if you didnt feel it.
Not many people do it, but theres a bit of an unwritten "If its completely impossible to see, and only possible to feel, then... Pay more attention!" Logic.

This is Contact Sparring im referring to, obviously.

Ive yet to see anyone deliberately fall down in a Competition.
And this (That i mentioned) kind of Dirty Fighting is usually used when someones being silly. Like trying to Dance around, or... using the same stuff on you
Is it Dishonorable? Maybe. But theyre TKD Techniques, and it takes some nerve to use them effectively.

 

[dancingalone]

I guess no striking is allowed on the ground in the rule set you are using? When I point sparred in tourneys a long time ago, if someone fell to the floor, you could drop to a low stance and punch them to a legal target like the gut for a point.

<shrugs> People will always find a way to game the system. That's part and parcel of a game or sport.

 

[Rumy73]

Correct. The play stops once someone falls. The rules are Olympic style.

 

[Touch Of Death]

As my TKD journey evolves, I am seeing more and more of the negative, overly competitive side and a huge lack of the spiritual, positive side. Last week, I was sparring with guy my age (30s-40s). In order to avoid being counter attacked, he would deliberately fall down after kicking. In one match, he did this about half a dozen times. After the match ended, he raised his hands in "victory" and let out a yell. His performance was poor and his fighting style lacked honor, in my opinion. Further, he demonstrated no humility even if he did "win" the match. This kind of attitude I find to be the prevailing one in TKD circles. Here is where the hyper-competitive, sporting-side has superceded the spiritual side of martial arts. I asked myself: is winning so important that dirty tricks are OK?

He's just hacking the system. LOL

 

[Rumy73]

What do you mean by jamming? Clinching?

 

[ATC]

Correct. The play stops once someone falls. The rules are Olympic style.

It is also a 1/2 point deduction when you fall as well. An intentional fall can be scored as a full point deduction if it continues, up to the center ref. Now if this was just in class as practice then he got nothing out of that class, but sad to say neither did you.

One thing that you can learn to do is to counter with him instead of after him. You simply guard and kick as he is kicking. Even a same time counter back kick would work. There is no time to fall if you learn to counter with your opponent. Then simply followup with a second kick right after. Just a tip for next time.

 

[MA-Caver]

<shrugs> People will always find a way to game the system. That's part and parcel of a game or sport.

Well that's the real question isn't it? Is it a Martial Art for defense or is it a sport? Either way, this guy will eventually meet someone who can counter attack far faster than he can fall to the ground or launch his attack. There are always someone faster and better than you. Which is why you continually train. Over blown egos will eventually get blown out of the ring.

Let him try that falling down crap on a real fight and he'll have his *** handed to him on a silver platter. To me it screams that he's a coward and can't take what he dishes out. If I were sparring with him and he started falling down after launching an attack to avoid my counter... I'd look down at him and say a simple word every time he does it... "coward".
He obviously doesn't understand or care about the spiritual aspects that can be provided by his art.

 

[StudentCarl]

You get good at what you practice, right? So he's getting good at diving...not much street value for that skill. Poor refereeing for sure, but your opponents actions reflect on him, not you. He knows the truth, and his master/coach should be angry and embarrassed. FWIW, as long as he's still in the air, he's fair game. People like that just make me kick/hit harder. If he's that much of a wimp, I'll make him not want to spar anymore.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Personally, I don't give a rats backside who has the most "points" when we're sparring. I spar as practice for self defense. It's not at all uncommon for my opponent to get a point for a strike that I partially block. Those partial blocks are intentional, since they're a setup for techniques that I can't execute (or at least, can't complete) under the rules of sparring. I'll still complete it in my head.

In your situation, you have several choices.

Take the fight to him. If he's the one who needs to counter, he'll either have to stop falling, or he'll make your kicks look really strong.

Counter faster. Launch your counter the instant he moves, and hit him before he has the chance to fall.

Follow him to the floor. If your sparring rules don't allow it, then don't make contact. But when he hits the floor, he should be looking at a strike that absolutely would have hurt, a lot, had you not pulled it.

On the other hand, if winning doesn't matter, then why do you care if he falls? Consider this. Every time he takes a dive, he's essentially conceding defeat. The points are irrelevant. You win, in the only way that really matters.

 

[RobinTKD]

Sounds like awful gamesmanship no matter what rules you're sparring by. I'd personally take out his supporting leg, hard, if he kept doing it to me, though i suppose that's no better than what he's doing. StudentCarl is right though, if he's doing nothing more than practising falling down to avoid a counter after each kick, then he'll suck when it comes to a real fight, and probably be disqualified at tourneys.

 

[Cyriacus]

What do you mean by jamming? Clinching?

Jamming is an Archetype of Blocking.
I use it alot

Clinching is a type of Grappling.

 

[granfire]

I suppose you have to time your kicks to 'hit' him when he's tumbling...easy point.

Or just ask him if he is tired...

Dropping to the floor does not seem to be in the spirit of competition...It beat however the 'turning your back' when the back is illegal target.

I faced an opponent like that my first time out...
I was too dazed (a short night and early rise...) to comprehend (it was good for forms tho ) or I would ahve made my first 'strike' count as in 'hey lady, you turn your back at me it's gonna HURT'

But in practice rounds? Sarcasm is the body's natural defense to stupid, as my new T-shirt reads!

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Ive found Ive just had to learn to deal with people 'breaking the rules'. We dont spar for points and in class people spar withinn the rules, no points, and basically try to knock you down. At grading, however, we cant spar anyone from our normal class so we spar a complete stranger in a couple of short rounds where knocking down your opponent is the name of the game. At gradings Ive seen all sorts of 'cheap shots', Ive seen people stand on their opponents foot so its pinned to the ground and then follow it up with a barrage of punches or a kick to the head, or a sneaky leg kick, or very commonly a punch to the neck while no one is looking. Because there are no points there is just a referee who is really only there to stop the fight if someone gets hurt so theres plenty of opportunities for illegal stuff. Most people fight fair but you always get the occasional guy who doesnt, it keeps you on your toes and you just have to stay aware, I actually think it helped me from a self defence perspective because the ruleset gets 'stretched' a little.

 

[Earl Weiss]

If it's not against the rules it's not a dirty trick. It's strategy. It's only dirty if your opponent figures out how to make it work without getting caught. Then it's really a problem of educating the officials or the rules committee.

 

[Buka]

IMO, it's not a matter of cheating, dirty tricks, strategy or bad habits. It's a matter of a guy acting like a dick. I fault whoever is running the sparring session. Let a chump act like a chump, you just encourage him.
As for it being within the rules, yeah sure, whatever. But is that the way you want to encourage a student how to spar, to be a warrior, to be a Martial Artist?

 

[Buka]

P.S.
Remy, don't let it get to you, brother. You're far the better man for knowing the difference, far better the Martial Artist, too.