TKD Pioneer Cross-training and Does It Affect You

[dancingalone]

I read on this board that GM Kim Soo stated yudo (judo) was a common physical education requirement in Korea in his formative years. Thus, it's likely that the early TKD pioneers all had at least a passing familiarity with grappling technique and could follow up appropriately in a close range combat situation.

I'm curious if the ITF or WTF curriculum officially list any grappling requirements? I know some of you likely include it in your own curriculums. How did you acquire the knowledge to teach? Did you crosstrain in another art or did your teacher teach you? If he did, how did he reconcile the differences in basics (stances, footwork, etc.) when trying to teach two approaches? And finally, have you been on the mat or worked with a jujutsu or hapkido person? Did you notice any differences in your "common" techniques and their effectiveness?

And finally, one to stir up the pot. Are you doing "true" taekwondo if you only work in the striking range?

 

[BrandonLucas]

I read on this board that GM Kim Soo stated yudo (judo) was a common physical education requirement in Korea in his formative years. Thus, it's likely that the early TKD pioneers all had at least a passing familiarity with grappling technique and could follow up appropriately in a close range combat situation.

I'm curious if the ITF or WTF curriculum officially list any grappling requirements? I know some of you likely include it in your own curriculums. How did you acquire the knowledge to teach? Did you crosstrain in another art or did your teacher teach you? If he did, how did he reconcile the differences in basics (stances, footwork, etc.) when trying to teach two approaches? And finally, have you been on the mat or worked with a jujutsu or hapkido person? Did you notice any differences in your "common" techniques and their effectiveness?

And finally, one to stir up the pot. Are you doing "true" taekwondo if you only work in the striking range?

Our instructor has never actually taught any grappling techniques such as throws and take downs, but I'm aware that the techniques were taught to him. I'm not sure why he doesn't teach those now, but I'll try to ask him tonight at class.

On a side note, I did wrestle in highschool, and it was pretty confusing to seperate the 2. I would always stand to the side in wrestling practice and forward during TKD class, and couldn't seem to get the hang of balancing the 2. This was before the MMA craze, so it was hard to find information about how to balance the 2 out, and I never thought to ask my instructor for some reason I can only attribute to youth.

And in response to the "stir-the-pot" question, no, I don't think "true" TKD should be taught to work only within the striking range. If the art has grappling influence included, and isn't being taught, then the full art is not being taught.

So I guess I'm not learning "true" TKD. Yet. But what I have learned works very well, I must say.

 

[bluekey88]

As far as I know, there is no official Kukkiwon grappling requirement or syllabus. However, the GM who oversees aour school has his highest rank in Yudo and grappling is a requirement in our syllabus. I doubt any of us will rise to the level of BJJ maters, but at least folks at our school won't freeze up when we end up on the ground.

Peace,
Erik

 

[dancingalone]

On a side note, I did wrestle in highschool, and it was pretty confusing to seperate the 2. I would always stand to the side in wrestling practice and forward during TKD class, and couldn't seem to get the hang of balancing the 2. This was before the MMA craze, so it was hard to find information about how to balance the 2 out, and I never thought to ask my instructor for some reason I can only attribute to youth.

I'd like to see more discussion around this point. My goju-ryu sensei teaches many close range fighting applications but they're all based around using a strike to gain entry and distract your opponent first. It's much easier to throw or acquiring a pinning lock on someone when they've been weakened first, you know?

I have the fortune of having many friends who are fellow martial artists and we regularly get together to workout, regardless of style. In working with the ones that practice a grappling style, I've noticed that my raw throwing and grappling skills can't begin to compare with theirs. This is to be expected, but I had wondered if anyone who primarily considers themselves a TKDist has experienced differently.

 

[YoungMan]

We are a traditional Chung Do Kwan organization and do not include grappling in our curriculum. Personally, I think it is a very risky thing to do. I have practiced sweeps and takedowns, but no grappling. Is it useful to know? Yes. Is it superior self defense (as some BJJ and other stylists would have you believe)? I don't think so.

 

[BrandonLucas]

I'd like to see more discussion around this point. My goju-ryu sensei teaches many close range fighting applications but they're all based around using a strike to gain entry and distract your opponent first. It's much easier to throw or acquiring a pinning lock on someone when they've been weakened first, you know?

I have the fortune of having many friends who are fellow martial artists and we regularly get together to workout, regardless of style. In working with the ones that practice a grappling style, I've noticed that my raw throwing and grappling skills can't begin to compare with theirs. This is to be expected, but I had wondered if anyone who primarily considers themselves a TKDist has experienced differently.

I actually experienced the same issue as you did on this one. I was not a very good wrestler at all. It was hard for me to not strike my opponent before trying to attempt a takedown, and then it was equally as hard to not strike my opponent once on the ground.

It was a strange concept for me to simply wrestle. I had fair take-down defense, but I didn't understand where to go from there....I always wanted to strike. That's why I have so much respect for the guys who can cross-train at an early age in grappling and striking arts...especially wrestling, where there are no strikes. Other grappling arts, (from what I've seen) include some strikes, mostly as transitional moves.

On a side note to that, I think my wrestling record was actually 0 - 4. I was really bad.

 

[exile]

We are a traditional Chung Do Kwan organization and do not include grappling in our curriculum. Personally, I think it is a very risky thing to do. I have practiced sweeps and takedowns, but no grappling. Is it useful to know? Yes. Is it superior self defense (as some BJJ and other stylists would have you believe)? I don't think so.

The way the term grappling is often used, it covers stuff like sweeps, pins and locks, throws and other controlling moves that a striking fighter can use to position his or her assailant correctly for a finishing strike. Unfortunately, the term has also come to be used to identify what's often called 'the ground game': moves that are specifically designed to ensure submissions in wrestling or MMA competition. That has led, I suspect, to people talking past each other in many such discussions; all of the striking MA stuff that I'm familiar with tells you very emphatically, stay off the ground if you can and if you can't get up ASAP. We really need a way of making that difference in the way 'grappling' is used clear when we get into these discussions, I think.

 

[Kwanjang]

We are a traditional Chung Do Kwan organization and do not include grappling in our curriculum. Personally, I think it is a very risky thing to do. I have practiced sweeps and takedowns, but no grappling. Is it useful to know? Yes. Is it superior self defense (as some BJJ and other stylists would have you believe)? I don't think so.

Hey YoungMan, At one of my dan tests my GM Made us do what He call Chung Do sparing. That is to say we sparred regular-but watch out, because your opponet can throw you and attempt take downs, chokes, arm bars etc. He said when He was in Korea training at the CDK in the early 60's this this was a part of "thier" curriculum.

It is fun to "spar" this way-it gives you (at least me) a greater sense of reality along with keeping you on your toes. Having hapkido skills is always a plus. I would imagane (classic) Jujitsu or. BJJ would also be a great additon to your tool box.

 

[dancingalone]

The way the term grappling is often used, it covers stuff like sweeps, pins and locks, throws and other controlling moves that a striking fighter can use to position his or her assailant correctly for a finishing strike. Unfortunately, the term has also come to be used to identify what's often called 'the ground game': moves that are specifically designed to ensure submissions in wrestling or MMA competition. That has led, I suspect, to people talking past each other in many such discussions; all of the striking MA stuff that I'm familiar with tells you very emphatically, stay off the ground if you can and if you can't get up ASAP. We really need a way of making that difference in the way 'grappling' is used clear when we get into these discussions, I think.

Excellent point, Exile. Yes, I mean grappling in the classical sense, a la Japanese jujutsu or Korean hapkido. I don't mean the ground work present in Judo or BJJ.

 

[dancingalone]

Hey YoungMan, At one of my dan tests my GM Made us do what He call Chung Do sparing. That is to say we sparred regular-but watch out, because your opponet can throw you and attempt take downs, chokes, arm bars etc. He said when He was in Korea training at the CDK in the early 60's this this was a part of "thier" curriculum.

It is fun to "spar" this way-it gives you (at least me) a greater sense of reality along with keeping you on your toes. Having hapkido skills is always a plus. I would imagane (classic) Jujitsu or. BJJ would also be a great additon to your tool box.

That's excellent training. We do the same in our goju-ryu practice, starting out at 1/2-3/4 speed to train sensitivity first before working full bore. At a slower speed, you can quickly see where improvements in your striking technique need to be made. Many who are kick and punching full speed may not actually realize they are unbalancing themselves without any motivation from an opponent.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

As Erik said, I don't believe that there is an grappling on any level in KKW curriculum. Can't speak for ITF.

Our GM does incorporate a lot of hapkido based grapples into the class, however. As Exile pointed out, this is grapple, as in sweeps and takedowns and some joint locks and controling moves, all geared towards getting an assailant pinned or immobile so that you can either finish him off or make escape. Not a ground game.

I don't personally consider a 'ground game' to be part of self defense, but a part of sport/ring fighting. That is my opinion, not something I state as fact. And meaning no disrespect to those of you who value a ground game.

Daniel

 

[BrandonLucas]

As Erik said, I don't believe that there is an grappling on any level in KKW curriculum. Can't speak for ITF.

Our GM does incorporate a lot of hapkido based grapples into the class, however. As Exile pointed out, this is grapple, as in sweeps and takedowns and some joint locks and controling moves, all geared towards getting an assailant pinned or immobile so that you can either finish him off or make escape. Not a ground game.

I don't personally consider a 'ground game' to be part of self defense, but a part of sport/ring fighting. That is my opinion, not something I state as fact. And meaning no disrespect to those of you who value a ground game.

Daniel

I think you've hit on another good point here..."ground game" is a must-have for sport/ring fighting.

However, there are SD scenerios in which it wouldn't be the best idea to actually tie-up on the ground with an opponent, and the best "ground game" you can have is the grappling, as in throwing and take-down defense. It all depends on the situation....and this pretty much goes into the cross-training thread that's already out there.

 

[StuartA]

There is throwing and falling techniques in Gen Chois early books (seperate chapters), up to the encys. There is also 'limited' ground stuff, though not in the same view as groundwork as its known today.. though stands to reason if many pioneers had judo training, they'd also know pinning techniques like scarf hold etc. as these are basic judo techniques.

As a coloured belt we did takedowns and throws, though not as regularly as we do it now at my own classes. I did judo at college so this was helpful to fine tune my throwing techniques in a bit more details, but they are part of TKD.

Kwanjang.. interesting about the 'Chung do' sparring. Ive always done an 'all in' form of sparring since red belt, at my own school its part of the curriculium and includes heavy contact strikes, sweeps, take downs, throws and groundwork.. we call it Ch'ang Tong Matsogi (traditional sparring) as it allows all traditional techniques and it seperates it from Jayu Matsogi (free sparring) which 99% of ITF based students relate to as tournament fighting.

Youngman.. I'm in agreement with you, garppling is not a "superior self defense" however, it is a part of it and without it there is a major gap (same can be said for any arts that dont teach striking)

 

[StuartA]

I think you've hit on another good point here..."ground game" is a must-have for sport/ring fighting.

However, there are SD scenerios in which it wouldn't be the best idea to actually tie-up on the ground with an opponent, and the best "ground game" you can have is the grappling, as in throwing and take-down defense. It all depends on the situation....and this pretty much goes into the cross-training thread that's already out there.

The groundgame for self defence revolves around either finishing immediatly or getting back up ASAP - its still a game on the ground however, just the objectives are different.. your just not looking to stay there.

Stuart

 

[SJON]

Hey YoungMan, At one of my dan tests my GM Made us do what He call Chung Do sparing. That is to say we sparred regular-but watch out, because your opponet can throw you and attempt take downs, chokes, arm bars etc. He said when He was in Korea training at the CDK in the early 60's this this was a part of "thier" curriculum.

Kwanjang, can you expand on that? I'm interested in hearing about what techniques were allowed/emphasised, what level of contact there was, etc. when your GM was doing that in Korea in the '60's.

Cheers,

Simon

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

The groundgame for self defence revolves around either finishing immediatly or getting back up ASAP - its still a game on the ground however, just the objectives are different.. your just not looking to stay there.

Stuart

Which is pretty much where my GM comes from: get 'em down and finish them, or get 'em down, get up and get out.

Daniel

 

[Kwanjang]

Kwanjang, can you expand on that? I'm interested in hearing about what techniques were allowed/emphasised, what level of contact there was, etc. when your GM was doing that in Korea in the '60's.

Cheers,

Simon

Simon, I am looking forward to reading your book

I have, on DVD some old 8mm film of him sparring his (at that time) Korean instructor. Pretty cool to watch.

Back then, there was not any sparring gear, Bare knuckeled and bare footed.

I will give more details on technique after lunch and classes tonight!
As far as the level of contact, If I remember correctly, He says with a smile, You've heard of the movie blood sport, haven't you?

I can only imagine (based on the old 8mm footage i've seen) it was exactly that.

Back in the day (in my twenties) I liked it rough-got the scars to prove it.

That type of intensity is not reccommended for the average student.:supcool:

 

[YoungMan]

My instructor also practiced in Korea in the 60's (becoming Korean sparring champion) and he never showed us any of that. Our sparring is strictly back and forth contact sparring. The speed may vary, but the principles do not. We do not incorporate Hapkido, JJ, or any other grappling, pinning, or throwing maneuvers.

 

[BrandonLucas]

My instructor also practiced in Korea in the 60's (becoming Korean sparring champion) and he never showed us any of that. Our sparring is strictly back and forth contact sparring. The speed may vary, but the principles do not. We do not incorporate Hapkido, JJ, or any other grappling, pinning, or throwing maneuvers.

This is very similar to our dojang...Our instructor practiced in the 60's, but I don't think he competed in any tournements...but our sparring styles are the same, as well as the fundamentals. I know he was taught the throws, but he doesn't actively teach them now.

 

[SJON]

Interesting how several people seem to have been taught throws and sweeps in the '60's. Kind of makes you think it was actually part of TKD, right?

Seriously, I'd be really interested to hear more details about these things: techniques used, context in which they were taught, masters and styles/schools who taught them, whether they were occasional novelties or regular fixtures ...

Cheers,

Simon