TKD and Everyone Else

[SageGhost83]

Iain Abernethy has written some informative stuff about the history of boxing, some of which, interestingly enough, is based on research that Jack Dempsey (yes, the Jack Dempsey) carried out on the 19th c. bare-knuckle boxers and their complex fighting system, which, if I recall correctly, did indeed have striking. grappling and groundfighting components in it. Sport boxing definitely represents a reduction in the range of techs employed by the old, old timers...

Yes, exactly! It is like our beloved TKD - what is shown as a representation of the art is not the original product, it is a stripped down sporting version. People look at the stripped down sporting version and use it to judge the value of the original product. Modern boxing follows the Marquis of Queensberry rules, and these rules actually made it a point to outlaw stand up grappling and groundfighting. Before these rules, stand up grappling and groundfighting were normal parts of boxing. Under the London Prize Ring rules, which preceded the Marquis of Queensberry rules, grappling and groundfighting were perfectly legal and the boxers even fought bare knuckle. This is what I am talking about concerning the tendency for people to rush to judgment concerning an art without actually practicing it and learning the art themselves :lol:.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I am not sure if I should be in this thread or not, my TKD days were over 20 years ago, but I started pre-Olympic TKD. And I have since looked in on a few TKD schools over the years and I have been pretty upset with what I saw. We trained close in fighting and there were takedowns, we trained punches and strikes to various body parts NOT just the small area of what is allowed for points and even though we had high kicks one of those was an axe kick and it was pretty devastating if applied correctly but we also trained low and mid-level kicks as well. And the fact that the assistant instructor ripped the top off of 2 kick bags with kicks and the chief instructor (owner) could bounce a heavy bag off a rather high ceiling told me those kicks were not something I wanted to be in front off.

I have been rather upset with the route TKD went over the years but I would love to see it return to what it use to be, what I know it to be actually.

 

[exile]

That is what I have come to believe, too. I don't buy that high, flashy kicks were a devastating weapon in the age of the automatic rifle and the sniper rifle. I think TKD was a valuable tool for the ROK, but like you, I think that ROK TKD was just a tad different from what most TKD schools teach these days (WTF).

Last thing you want to be trying to do on the battle field at close quarters is a spinning high kick, for sure...

I have been rather upset with the route TKD went over the years but I would love to see it return to what it use to be, what I know it to be actually.

More and more and more, XS, this is what I've been hearing. It's not just us...

 

[terryl965]

All I can say is this everybody has there private points of views here, but the facts remains that you cannot judge a complete type of Art by what you see in the majority. These folks got into TKD to simply make money and not give a damm about the actual art. Over twenty seven year I have seen alot of bad TKD and I personally understand why people say what they say. My lord just in the DFW area there are 1,273 TKD school. They are everywhere rec. center, boys and girls club every strip mall ahs a school. When all people see are a bunch of childern in high belt thoughout the school and very few adult what can you or i expect.

The days of hard training is far and in between, most of the school treat there student base like cattle and little else, remember what we do to cattle and that is what these so called instuctor are doing to our art killing it.

I hope when I am gone that my three son's can remember why we do what we do and not fall victom to society of TKD. I can only imagine what will become in twenty years? :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

 

[SageGhost83]

I am not sure if I should be in this thread or not, my TKD days were over 20 years ago, but I started pre-Olympic TKD. And I have since looked in on a few TKD schools over the years and I have been pretty upset with what I saw. We trained close in fighting and there were takedowns, we trained punches and strikes to various body parts NOT just the small area of what is allowed for points and even though we had high kicks one of those was an axe kick and it was pretty devastating if applied correctly but we also trained low and mid-level kicks as well. And the fact that the assistant instructor ripped the top off of 2 kick bags with kicks and the chief instructor (owner) could bounce a heavy bag off a rather high ceiling told me those kicks were not something I wanted to be in front off.

I have been rather upset with the route TKD went over the years but I would love to see it return to what it use to be, what I know it to be actually.

You seem very knowledgable about TKD to me, so I don't see why you wouldn't belong in this thread :asian:. I am upset about the current state of the art, too. Hopefully this olympic thing runs its course and TKD gets back to being TKD, not olympic foot tag.

 

[YoungMan]

That is what I have come to believe, too. I don't buy that high, flashy kicks were a devastating weapon in the age of the automatic rifle and the sniper rifle. I think TKD was a valuable tool for the ROK, but like you, I think that ROK TKD was just a tad different from what most TKD schools teach these days (WTF).

But it's not supposed to be. ROK Taekwondo by definition is not designed for a ring. Tournament Taekwondo by definition is not supposed to be street realistic. Self defense-oriented Taekwondo is another beast entirely. What many people seem to forget is that modern Taekwondo is composed of many different parts, depending on what you want. Don't like tournament fighting? Don't have to do it. Kukkiwon TKD is not just tournament competition, despite what the naysayers say.

 

[Tez3]

Do people feel it's the Olympics that has spoiled TKD? My other sport is dressage, kata for horses if you like. It's not a very well known event and tbh very boring if you don't know whats going on. No one is going to watch it if they're not interested and to those that are they are passionate about it. However the Olympic commitees want it jazzed up, spectator friendly and saleable to advertisers. This has been resisted..so far but once the commitee members get their teeth into it it won't be recognisable as the event we love. Why can't they leave these minority sports alone, why do they have to be messed around with just to try to attract people to watch them so they can sell advertising space on the programmes!
This is dressage, it has a lot in common with kata in actual fact as the horse were schooled to be able to 'fight' in battles. Their riders would use them to clear a path for them and take down the enemy by knocking and kicking them away.

I've hear many judo people decrying the rules made for the Olympics to make it more spectator friendly but diluting the actual power of the art. don't get me started either on beach volleyball where the female competitors can be penalised for wearing too much!! yeah nice for the men to look at and so so commercial! That's what it's all come down to.... Olympics = commercial trading company. Never mind the sports it ruins it must make money.
Ok rant over!!

 

[exile]

Do people feel it's the Olympics that has spoiled TKD? My other sport is dressage, kata for horses if you like. It's not a very well known event and tbh very boring if you don't know whats going on. No one is going to watch it if they're not interested and to those that are they are passionate about it. However the Olympic commitees want it jazzed up, spectator friendly and saleable to advertisers. This has been resisted..so far but once the commitee members get their teeth into it it won't be recognisable as the event we love. Why can't they leave these minority sports alone, why do they have to be messed around with just to try to attract people to watch them so they can sell advertising space on the programmes!
This is dressage, it has a lot in common with kata in actual fact as the horse were schooled to be able to 'fight' in battles. Their riders would use them to clear a path for them and take down the enemy by knocking and kicking them away.

I've hear many judo people decrying the rules made for the Olympics to make it more spectator friendly but diluting the actual power of the art. don't get me started either on beach volleyball where the female competitors can be penalised for wearing too much!! yeah nice for the men to look at and so so commercial! That's what it's all come down to.... Olympics = commercial trading company. Never mind the sports it ruins it must make money.
Ok rant over!!

The history of the modern Olympics has been one of nonstop corruption, horsetrading, thrown competitions and other quid pro quo transactions that make organized crime look honest by comparison. The use of steroids in the 1960s and 70s by many of the then Eastern-bloc countries (and later on by some of our very own athletes) the dishonesty in judging in high-profile events—witness the grotesque judgments that have become more and more notorious in the figure skating competitions—and the out-and-out bribery that nations have in effect indulged in in trying to get their own sites selected for future Olympics... all make it clear that Olympic culture is rotten to its diseased bones. TKD is bound to have been corrupted by its involvement in the Olympic underworld; just ask Terry, or Kwan Jang, or some of our other very senior, experienced members with extensive competitive records just what they've seen and heard in their decades around the WTF sport side of things (they've related some of the more sleazy episodes you're likely to hear in previous threads).

Mass marketing for spectacle creates a monoclonal version of any activity unfortunate enough to be subject to that kind of development. My own feeling is, the best thing that could happen to TKD would be to lose its Olympic status. That wouldn't mean people who wanted a competitive circuit couldn't have one; the ITF has tournaments, TSD has tournaments; karate has a huge sport side (which a lot of realistic, applied karate types themselves aren't too happy about, I gather). But the sheer volume of $$ that the Olympic entanglement brings into the TKD scene has the kind of corrupting effect that Terry refers to in his previous post, pretty much inevitably. My own feeling is, that's something the multisided nature of the art could do very well without.

 

[SageGhost83]

But it's not supposed to be. ROK Taekwondo by definition is not designed for a ring. Tournament Taekwondo by definition is not supposed to be street realistic. Self defense-oriented Taekwondo is another beast entirely. What many people seem to forget is that modern Taekwondo is composed of many different parts, depending on what you want. Don't like tournament fighting? Don't have to do it. Kukkiwon TKD is not just tournament competition, despite what the naysayers say.

Yes, you are exactly right and I am in agreement with you. I was speaking more to the types who take WTF or Olympic Style TKD and try to use the ROK marine argument to support their version of TKD. You and I both know this, but there are a lot of uniformed souls out there who hear ROK marine TKD and all-too-readily equate it to what they see in modern tournaments or in the flashy strip mall dojangs.

 

[newGuy12]

It's the Olympics that have quote-unquote "ruined" it. If it went back to the way it used to be taught before a lot of schools adopted the Olympic/competition rules it would go back to being a perfectly good system( ask the ROK Marines).

Oh, I say let the competitors have their competition. It is enjoyable, and it beats throwing rocks at cars. it gives satisfaction to many, and people know that there is more to TKD than this competition. Besides, there is good power in some of these competition kicks, too. A knock-out kick, that is powerful.

i shudder when i hear MMA or BJJ because i think it is a very FLAWED system for self defense, yet when you try to point that out, people invariably try to shove the UFC (a flawed and stacked contest from the 1st one till now) in your face. It gets old. But then, i dont go out of my way to trash them either. So maybe i dont fit what you were talking about.

Anymore, I am so freaking flexible I can hardly stand up. These people who wish to practice the grappling and so forth, they can have their fun too. I will NEVER bad mouth this UFC, because I had the pleasure of meeting Matt Serra in person at the NRA convention. He is one of the most pleasant people you would ever wish to meet, no kidding, a top notch dude.

I know that if someone gets into the grappling range, the American Kenpo Person can break the neck, no joke. This is very dangerous. But it comes down to range. Some people hate to be so close. Some like to be in kicking range, in punching range, that is where the fun is. If the student does not like the practice, they will not persist, unless their life depends on it. So, everyone must find the martial art that is pleasant to them, so that they will continue.

To put the maximum power on the target gives satisfaction. It is amazing. How do you do that? You do the jumping spinning side kick!
Where do you learn that? Oh -- the TKD Dojang. That's where the fun is!

where the favorite activity seems to be pissing on every single traditional MA in turn.

And who has use for such people? Screw them and their kind, life is too freaking short!

I think there's reason to be very hopeful that the near future is going to see a revival of 'old-school' TKD (and an accompany major split within the organization structure of the art, inevitably, as those of us who want TKD to be a practical fighting skill wind up going our own way...)

Hehe, its not here yet, but its coming. It will be a Good Thing.

Its a big world with lots of diverse personalities. But, for those who have felt the big kicks, giving and taking at that range, FAST MOTION in TKD, what else can compare for that feeling of putting BIG POWER on the target? Nothing else, for my money. If others wish to do something else, so be it. I have a good buddy who is a bit of a rowdy sort. He practices the Shotokan. I see him and yell, "Hello, Shotokan!", and raise a fist you know. He gets upset sometimes, but, there is room for all of these martial arts. There's really no need to fuss. We all must pick a horse and ride. I do feel somewhat sorry for those who do not feel this "BIG FEELING" that I have had, though. Its incredible.

Good people, good times, good TKD. We are very fortunate to be able to practice this.

 

[newGuy12]

It happens across the board, even Taekwondoin engage in this behavior towards other styles (*cough* Muay Thai *cough* *cough*). Don't worry about what "everybody else" says about your style.

You will never hear this user disrespect the Muay Thai way. We have three students now that used to practice this somewhere. I don't know what methods they used there, but two of these boys know GOOD POWER. They are not afraid to give power!

They grew dissatisfied with their previous practice, but we have a good place for them here. They agree. Whatever that previous school did to endow the boys with the attitude of giving power, it worked! In the old days, TKD would do that, of course, but nowadays, the young people seem to not take to it well. I hate to say it.

Right. We have our two students now, and they are coming along quite nicely! Good heart these guys have! They can take a shot and give it too! This is the right way.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I just finished reading this entire thread, all five pages worth! All that really needs to be said has been said, and then some. But I will throw my hat into the ring anyway.

I'll stick to the subject of of McDojangs, as nearly everything else has been well and duly covered. I truly feel that the majority of these places do not exist for the sole purpose of fleecing the uninformed. I do think that, at least in the US, the buying public has greatly shaped our teaching methods and business practices.

A school needs money to stay open. If the owner is independently wealthy and can do so without charging any fee, bravo, but that is rarely the case. Also, the majorty of people who take up a martial art typically quit on the way to or just after receiving their black belt. Because of this, schools will go down the path of clever marketing, karate camp, and birthday parties, as well as eight year old blackbelts in order to stay in business.

Note: I am aware that there are slick people who use martial arts as nothing more than a cash cow and set out from the very beginning to do so. These are not the schools of which I speak, and of which I feel are the minority, even amongst McDojangs.

Students and students' parents will potentially sue for just about anything, from physical injury to denial of a blackbelt. This climate tends to encourage a more tepid school than the owner may wish to have. And forgetting lawsuits, the student can simply quit and go elsewhere. Most people in this country have developed an entitlement mentality, so the idea that a martial art does not reward all equally, regardless of effort rubs many the wrong way, though they'd never admit it. People want money that they didn't earn, jobs for which they are unfit, and to be exempt from any penalties, regardless of how grevous their wrongs.

I believe that the continuing increase in the cost of tests as the student progresses also prevents schools from withholding a black belt (or any belt) from a student who does not test well. Admittedly, a student shouldn't be allowed to test if they aren't ready, but that is another subject.

Personally, I see nothing wrong with the whole birthday party thing; if the actual class is a decent class with quality instruction, then I really don't care if the owner uses birthday parties or karate camp to supplement the school's income. I do have a problem with eight year olds being permited to wear anything more than a poom belt.

My last comment is this: You get out what you put in, regardless of where you train. If a student trains hard and with dedication at a McDojang, they will inevitably get more out of the class than those who mail it in. In fact, I'd venture that a lot of instructors at McDojang schools are very happy to have such students when they come along and take the time to cultivate them.

Just a few less than organized thoughts on the subject.

Daniel

 

[SageGhost83]

You will never hear this user disrespect the Muay Thai way. We have three students now that used to practice this somewhere. I don't know what methods they used there, but two of these boys know GOOD POWER. They are not afraid to give power!

They grew dissatisfied with their previous practice, but we have a good place for them here. They agree. Whatever that previous school did to endow the boys with the attitude of giving power, it worked! In the old days, TKD would do that, of course, but nowadays, the young people seem to not take to it well. I hate to say it.

Right. We have our two students now, and they are coming along quite nicely! Good heart these guys have! They can take a shot and give it too! This is the right way.

That's awesome, and you are a good Taekwondoin and who practices in good faith. I have come across some Taekwondoin who bash MT and its Kicks just becuase they are not WTF TKD. Then they thinly veil how they wish they could kick they MT kicks. I was stating in that you will have some students from *every* style, even within our own TKD, who engages in not so appetizing behavior. More to the effect of "we have ours, too - the TKD community is not filled with perfect angels". TKD did have monstrous power in its kicks, and many schools still do, it just that, like Celtic Tiger said, a lot of owners are lawsuit-aware and don't want to risk what could happen if the TKD kicks were that practiced with that kind of power. Oh, and some never learned how to make their kicks that powerful, themselves. Celtic Tiger, your post was excellent and really added nicely to the thread. Kudos! :asian:

 

[SageGhost83]

By the way, newguy12...Where have you been!? I haven't seen you posting in a good while! Maybe I have just been looking in the wrong places :lol:.

 

[StuartA]

I do have a problem with eight year olds being permited to wear anything more than a poom belt.

Isnt a poom belt the junior equivilant of an adult black belt, and by KKW rules, they do not have to regrade or anything and technically just advance to whatever the next dan grade level is (ie. a 2nd poom is allowed to 3rd dan) via a grading, when they come of age or port straight over to the dan grade equivilant, for some that could mean 4th dan :xtrmshock

It seems like the 'poom' is a disguise to allow very young BBs into the fold!

So I do not understand why some feel its okay for an 8 year old to wear a poom belt, but not a black belt.. as they are the same thing by a different name! Or am I missing something!

Personally, I dont feel an 8 year old should be wearing a black belt or any equivilant to it, by any name.. but hey, thats just me. :wink2:

Stuart

 

[terryl965]

Isnt a poom belt the junior equivilant of an adult black belt, and by KKW rules, they do not have to regrade or anything and technically just advance to whatever the next dan grade level is (ie. a 2nd poom is allowed to 3rd dan) via a grading, when they come of age or port straight over to the dan grade equivilant, for some that could mean 4th dan :xtrmshock

It seems like the 'poom' is a disguise to allow very young BBs into the fold!

So I do not understand why some feel its okay for an 8 year old to wear a poom belt, but not a black belt.. as they are the same thing by a different name! Or am I missing something!

Personally, I dont feel an 8 year old should be wearing a black belt or any equivilant to it, by any name.. but hey, thats just me. :wink2:

Stuart

Well stuart you know how I feel and all my junior re-test no matter what except they leave the school. A poom is fine with me as long as they and the parents understand it is not a real adult BB.

 

[StuartA]

Well stuart you know how I feel and all my junior re-test no matter what except they leave the school. A poom is fine with me as long as they and the parents understand it is not a real adult BB.

I do indeed and totally agree with the way you handle it. The problem is that way is not the criteria and not the standard way, which it should be, and as it isnt it remains as in my previous post.. which makes having another name for it (poom) pointless except to appease certain crowds for money/political reasons.

Stuart

 

[Xue Sheng]

To put the maximum power on the target gives satisfaction. It is amazing. How do you do that?

Sounds like Xingyiquan and if we were talking Xingyiquan you do it with anything you hit with :EG:


But back to the topic, and I am not really sure how much I can add after this, as I said TKD was a long time ago.

I started Pre-Olympic but it was heading toward becoming an Olympic sport and then became one while I was training TKD and it was rather strange, interesting and funny to watch this process at my old school.

The teacher separated the class into Olympic and non-Olympic and we were free to choose whichever we wanted or do both if we wanted, I tried the Olympic but I am not big on competitions and frankly I didn't like it as much as the non-Olympic tkd. And add to that the teacher did not really understand what the Olympic thing was about and he had no protective equipment available at that time. After some student complaints he bought one chest protector from Korea and I have to tell you I tried it once and only once. It did stop some of the feeling of penetration of a kick but it spread the actual PAIN of that kick over your entire chest, frankly I thought it hurt more. It was made of bamboo staves covered with padding.

He later bought other equipment and allowed students to buy their own but I do not think he ever quite figured out why anyone wanted to use pads and he laughed every time he watched someone putting them on also he was constantly saying "there are no pads in a fight".

I have no idea what his school is like now it does still exist, but at the time non-Olympic or Olympic I was pretty impressed with his ability as a martial artist and as a teacher.

But I would really like to see TKD return to what it was before this whole Olympic mess.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Isnt a poom belt the junior equivilant of an adult black belt, and by KKW rules, they do not have to regrade or anything and technically just advance to whatever the next dan grade level is (ie. a 2nd poom is allowed to 3rd dan) via a grading, when they come of age or port straight over to the dan grade equivilant, for some that could mean 4th dan :xtrmshock

It seems like the 'poom' is a disguise to allow very young BBs into the fold!

So I do not understand why some feel its okay for an 8 year old to wear a poom belt, but not a black belt.. as they are the same thing by a different name! Or am I missing something!

Personally, I dont feel an 8 year old should be wearing a black belt or any equivilant to it, by any name.. but hey, thats just me. :wink2:

Stuart

Its not just you. And like yourself, I have a serious problem with the lack of regrading. Personally, I think that the KKW should simply not allow anyone under the age of 15 (?) to test for a blackbelt and should not offer an equivalent. But since they do, thats why I state that I have the problem with the wee ones wearing anything higher than a poom belt.

I like the idea of providing a reward for a student who learns the cirriculum, but I have a problem with the lack of regrading. But I have an even bigger problem with school allowing the eight year old to wear an actual blackbelt.

It may seem superficial to differentiate between a poom belt, which is half black and half red, and a blackbelt on a young student, but it makes a huge difference to the uninformed looking in; they either see eight year old blackbelts or eight year olds with a halfsy belt.

The uninformed don't know what a halfsy belt is, but they do know what a blackbelt is and that the halfsy isn't a black belt. Mores the better if the students know that it isn't a blackbelt as well, though that probably isn't the case most of the time.

Daniel

 

[StuartA]

It may seem superficial to differentiate between a poom belt, which is half black and half red, and a blackbelt on a young student, but it makes a huge difference to the uninformed looking in; they either see eight year old blackbelts or eight year olds with a halfsy belt.

I see your point and it would actually mean something (the poom belt, not your point) if a regrading took place, but as I said, it doesnt, so it doesnt just seem superficial.. it is superficial.


Thanks for the reply & further explanation to it all Daniel,

Regards,

Stuart