Thomas the Pregnant Man

[Archangel M]

BTW, last I knew, being a male or a female was a scientifically provable fact. That whole XX XY thing. Hermaphrodites, siamese twins, birth defects were the result of genetic abnormalities. When my wife was pregnant, we were expecting a boy or a girl...anything else would have been abnormal. Meaning not normal. This issue is about the politics of gender in society, not about any medical or scientific findings. Its amusing how people will bend their opinions regarding what FACT is depending on the subject. Argue the gvt. knocked down the trade center and there are FACTS galore. Debate the medical determination of gender...not so much.

 

[CuongNhuka]

So, what about XYY, and all those other abnormalities, where do they fit in? I think that is real topic here.

 

[Empty Hands]

Not who or what we are talking about.

It is exactly what we are talking about. A genotypic man and a phenotypic woman in the same body. I'm not surprised you would prefer to ignore that.

 

[Empty Hands]

Name two conservatives who campaigned for a state-sanctioned religion.
Oh, that's right, you can't.

Can't? It's not even difficult.

Ralph Reed.
Jerry Falwell.

 

[Empty Hands]

BTW, last I knew, being a male or a female was a scientifically provable fact. That whole XX XY thing.

Clearly you don't know much about science. Look at the picture I posted on page 1 of this thread. A genotypic man (XY) with the complete phenotype of a woman. Science recognizes that there is a potential disconnect between DNA and what it produces. There are no hard and fast categories, no matter how much the scared religious conservatives moan and wail.

 

[Archangel M]

So, what about XYY, and all those other abnormalities, where do they fit in? I think that is real topic here.

In the natural world where surgery and pharm dont enter the equation, these abnormalities either dont survive or dont breed. All of these gender concepts are human constructs. Not that any of that is a bad thing..thank God (or whomever) for modern medicine, however we are confusing natural/normal with the "possible".

 

[Empty Hands]

In the natural world where surgery and pharm dont enter the equation, these abnormalities either dont survive or dont breed.

None of the well-described sex chromosome abnormalities are particularly lethal. Y alone would be, but of course they never survive to be described in the first place.

Many of the different combinations are also still fertile. Turner females (X) are usually infertile, but not always. Klinefelter males (XXY) have reduced but not eliminated fertility. XYY syndrome has no noticeable effect on fertility. And so forth.

Not that fertility or even survival is a rational basis for defining sex. Plenty of women and men with normal genotype and phenotype are sterile for one reason or another. Should they then not be considered female and male? Doesn't make any sense.

 

[tellner]

Conservatives who campaigned for state-sponsored religion? Let's start with...

The AFA, Focus on the Family, FRC, Hagee and Parsely (just to name two the butts McCain browned his nose on), Falwell, Robertson, American Right to Life, the Institute for Creation Research, the Gablers, Rushdoony, Huckabee, Bush, Gary North,George H. W. Bush (remember his "atheists aren't citizens" quote?), Howard Ahmanson, Jr., Greg Bahnsen, David Chilton, Gary DeMar, Kenneth Gentry, Andrew Sandlin, Coulter, D. James Kennedy, Scalia & Clarence Thomas (both of whom have stated that the Bible is the highest legal authority in the US and that G-d, not the consent of the governed, is the basis of the government's powers), the Southern Baptist Convention since 1980, David Barton, the Commandant of the Air Force Academy....

That's just the results of 90 seconds of scribbling by the clock. I can come up with pages more.

Face it, Don. You just keep digging a deeper hole every time you open your mouth.

 

[Makalakumu]

My point is not about the scientific basis of gender. It about how one talks about people. A person who is a biologic female, but feels she is a male, decided to have a baby because she had the right parts and her partner couldn't have anymore children.

You said the entire family was a freakshow. That's wrong. No matter how you spin it.

This isn't about her gender issues, its about how you demeaned the families humanity with your language. Its about how you and so many others have such a hard time accepting that other types of families exist and how you think those families are somehow lesser then "normal" families.

It's very judgemental and close minded. I hope you meet one of these families someday so that it helps to alter your opinion of them.

 

[Tez3]

In the natural world where surgery and pharm dont enter the equation, these abnormalities either dont survive or dont breed. All of these gender concepts are human constructs. Not that any of that is a bad thing..thank God (or whomever) for modern medicine, however we are confusing natural/normal with the "possible".

Do I pass on to one of my students whose daughter has Turners that her daughter is to be considered an abnormality then?

 

[Xue Sheng]

In the natural world where surgery and pharm dont enter the equation, these abnormalities either dont survive or dont breed.

But sometimes its called evolution and they do better than thier predecessors, modern man may just have at one time been considered an abnormality. Spots on the back of a cheetah turning to stripes, is it an abnormality or is it evolution? Dinosaurs sprouting feathers was that an abnormality or evolution. Skin pigments are they abnormalities or evolution based on geographic location.

 

[Archangel M]

Only if the "abnormality" gave a survival advantage and was passed to the offspring during reproduction. Sex has remained constant from the dinosaurs to modern times. And is consistent throughout most complex organisms. Male/Female. I dont buy the evolution argument when it comes to sexual reproduction. This is about human "feelings" (she "feels" like shes a man) which, if biological, come from the brain and could be nurture as much as nature.

Words mean something..this ISNT a pregnant MAN. This is a woman, scientifically provable as such regardless of her "feelings" or surgical procedures. This whole "Pregnant Man" issue is about sexual politics, not fact.

And to answer a different question. If someone has a disease, it means their state of health is not "normal" does it not?

 

[RandomPhantom700]

Yes, transexual/transgender people are an extreme rarity; natural (meaning no surgeries/hormones/artificial intervention involved) cases of such are even rarer. So in the strictest, most literal sense, yes, they are "abnormal".

However, when you use words like "freakshow" and liken their abnormality to a disease as you just did, Archangel, you're saying a helluva lot more than just that they're in the vast minority. "Freakshow" is a derogatory term, and no rational person would accept it as a mere statement of low frequency.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Only if the "abnormality" gave a survival advantage

So then some abnormalities do survive after all.

And to answer a different question. If someone has a disease, it means their state of health is not "normal" does it not?

It may be the norm for the disease they have, having a disease is not abnormal, and it is not a mutation. An antibiotic resistant virus is a mutation however.

Being sick is not abnormal health.

 

[Archangel M]

Disease:
Noun
S: (n) disease (an impairment of health or a condition of abnormal functioning)

Just because something isnt "normal" doesnt mean it should be rejected or punished. However words DO mean something and so does accuracy. Political Correctness allows "feelings" to replace fact.

 

[Archangel M]

Disease
(1) An impairment of health or a condition of abnormal functioning. A condition in organisms as a result of viral, fungal or bacterial (virus, bacteria, fungus) attack that threatens or inhibits the life of the organism in question.

Illness or sickness often characterized by typical patient problems (symptoms) and physical findings (signs). Disruption sequence: The events that occur when a fetus that is developing normally is subjected to a destructive agent such as the rubella (German measles) virus.

Common Misspellings: diease, desease

(2) Disease is a term for any condition that impairs the normal functioning of an organism or body. Although plants and animals also contract diseases, by far the most significant disease-related areas of interest are those conditions that afflict human beings. They can be divided into three categories: intrinsic, or coming from within the body; extrinsic, or emerging from outside it; and of unknown origin. Until the twentieth century brought changes in the living standards and health care of industrialized societies, extrinsic diseases were the greater threat; today, however, diseases of intrinsic origin are much more familiar. Among them are stress-related diseases, autoimmune disease or disorders, cancers, hereditary diseases, glandular conditions, and conditions resulting from malnutrition. There are also illnesses, such as Alzheimer's disease, whose causes remain essentially unknown.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Disease:
Noun
S: (n) disease (an impairment of health or a condition of abnormal functioning)

condition of abnormal functioning not abnormal health, not good health but not abnormal health

health
1. the general condition of the body or mind with reference to soundness and vigor: good health; poor health.


A disease

is an abnormal condition of an organism that impairs bodily functions, associated with specific symptoms and signs.

In human beings,"disease" is often used more broadly to refer to any condition that causes extreme pain, dysfunction, distress, social problems, and/or death to the person afflicted, or similar problems for those in contact with the person. In this broader sense, it sometimes includes injuries, disabilities, disorders, syndromes, infections, isolated symptoms, deviant behaviors, and atypical variations of structure and function, while in other contexts and for other purposes these may be considered distinguishable categories


but then this is now getting into semantics rather silly and off post.

 

[Archangel M]

Not so silly that we cant have a last word contest though huh?


health
1. the general condition of the body or mind with reference to soundness and vigor: good health; poor health.

All things being NORMAL..you have good health. Abnormalities such as disease that impair bodily function result in bad health. Or at least impaired health where you can live a somewhat normal life but with impairment.

To bring it back around. This womans issue is not a health issue.

 

[RandomPhantom700]

When you guys are done cherry-picking dictionary definitions, an actual discussion would be entertaining. Til then, ta-tah.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Not so silly that we cant have a last word contest though huh?


health
1. the general condition of the body or mind with reference to soundness and vigor: good health; poor health.

All things being NORMAL..you have good health. Abnormalities such as disease that impair bodily function result in bad health.

ok you win, if that what it takes to put this to rest.

The next time I have a cold or the flu I will say I have abnormal health.

Possibly it should be a college course I mean there is Abnormal Psychology why not Abnormal Health

And even I am now scratching my head (abnoramally) trying to figure out how this got here from "Thomas the Pregnant Man" and I am in part responsible for getting it here.