This is what is wrong with TKD

[garrisons2]

Interesting point. So what should the standard be for adults? and should age or other physical limitations play a mitigating factor. Does the Kukkikwon have a specific standard somewhere that I haven't seen?

 

[Twin Fist]

no one under 15-16, and never less than 4 years is a good start

Well I got my BB in 3 years and I was 9 years old

 

[Twin Fist]

yes they do, the ONE thing they do that i like

no one under 15 gets a dan rank

PERIOD

Interesting point. So what should the standard be for adults? and should age or other physical limitations play a mitigating factor. Does the Kukkikwon have a specific standard somewhere that I haven't seen?

 

[garrisons2]

true, except the common reference is Black Belt, not Poom or Dan. so it's kind of like an asterisk

 

[astrobiologist]

My first dan certificate was awarded to me when I was eight. My second dan when I was eleven. At that point in my life I was good at point fighting, par at breaking, and I was good at performing many forms, but I had no understanding of applications, and I wasn't analytical enough in my approach to martial arts.

My understanding of the martial arts is much different now. I don't regret my youthful advancement; it has definitely given me insight. However, when I operate my own school some day I believe there will need to be either some differentiation between children's advanced degrees and adults' or I may consider setting an age limit.

 

[Twin Fist]

I dont want to sound rude, but an 8 yr old dan rank is garbage, and a 11 yr old 2nd dan?

thats worse.

not to belittle YOU, just the person that did that to you

 

[astrobiologist]

I dont want to sound rude, but an 8 yr old dan rank is garbage, and a 11 yr old 2nd dan?

thats worse.

not to belittle YOU, just the person that did that to you

No worries mate, like I said it's a pretty tough one. I don't regret having received them. That's part of my history and it has been part of my drive to expose McDojang and Bullshido. The school that I came from that gave me that 2nd dan at 11 is, in my opinion, guilty of a lot of that. When I started at 5, my old instructor's son started too. He's also 25 now and he is a 5th dan, pretty sure going on 6th. Silliness, huh?

BTW, In the past 14 years I've only come to 3rd dan, and that's where I feel I belong. I've been teaching now for about 3 years, I have experience in other arts and have studied a lot of martial history and philosophy, and I can see children black belts and know what they're going through. They don't know what the problem is that we're all discussing, they're just happy to be training. Their parents and instructors are the problem; even more so the society that has allowed this to become the norm is the problem.

 

[Natty]

I'm surprised as well that kids as young as 7 or 8 were given a Dan title. In both schools I have been in, children who have been awarded a black belt are given the title Go-Ma under the age of 10 then So-Yun until they are 15. Then they are allowed to test for their Dan title. Two years is too early to award a black belt. I would say three to four years. I am still in the process of working towards earning a black belt and I know it is not something that is just handed over. It is a learning process that takes a lot of discipline and determination.

 

[MA-Caver]

Ohhh-kay... reading the interview I think I spotted the real gist of it all as to why the girl was so quick... this line right here.

Rayna: I want to learn kung fu and add more belts to my collection.

She just wants a collection of belts. When she gets one in Kung Fu (presumably WC) then she can move on to EPAK, and then Aikido, moving on to Silat and so forth. She can get a whole bunch by the time she graduates high-school. Then she can wear a "deadilest woman alive" badge.

Wow... gotta sign her up for a reality show here quick. They'll make a fortune.

Like Carol, I wouldn't dream of bashing TKD... I know it to be a legitimate MA and not the sad belt factories that many are turning it into. I have a lot of respect for true practioners of TKD. :asian:
It's obvious that the girl's parents were not properly informed of things and they didn't do honest in depth research on what real TKD is.

Articles like these will continue to crop up and will eventually encompass other arts.

 

[Makalakumu]

There's McDojangs, McDojo, McCrappling, McMMA, etc...

It's not just TKD, although I think it's more prevalent in TKD because of the marketing scheme and business plan. All this goes to show us is that we really need to take all "rank" with a grain of salt. The whole idea that rank is ultimately a meaningful way of representing skill outside of the school it was awarded has been undermined. Lets face it, the days when a black belt meant something are gone...and they ain't coming back. So what now?

We have to change our thinking, IMO. For me, "rank" is a representation of a relationship between student and teacher. I think that if we continue the farce that it is something more, we will only get drawn farther into this black pit. I rarely talk about my own rank or my experience any more. If people ask, I'll tell them. If not, I just show up and train and let my skill speak for itself.

I showed up at a Shotokan dojo the other day with a white belt on and started practicing with everyone. In less then 30 seconds, everyone knew that I had a lot more experience then the stupid belt let on.

 

[mozzandherb]

But, there are some kids who are geniouses whether it be in music, art or martial arts. I think that if the person can contribute to the art and help others, then age does not matter.

 

[Makalakumu]

Personally, I think that an adult who looks at a kiddie BB and compares it to themselves needs to take a step back and re-evaulate. I know in certain organizations they require adults to bow to kiddieBBs and I think that does a lot to muddy the waters, but the fact remains, they aren't the same. They never can be. They never will be. In reality, I'd really like to know how the presence of a kiddieBB in the world really diminishes your actual training. For me, it just doesn't matter.

 

[Carol]

But, there are some kids who are geniouses whether it be in music, art or martial arts. I think that if the person can contribute to the art and help others, then age does not matter.

Not the same. A talented child in martial arts may be talented for their age, but they do not wear adult gear, they do not spar adults, or grapple adults, or have to defeat adults.

A child prodigy in music is someone whose talent can easily compete with an adult, using the same instruments as an adult.

An example: young Vietnamese-American Wendy Vo. She is a polyglot that speaks at least 11 languages. Here she is at age 6, setting the house on fire playing Tico Tico - a song that WFMU described as "the tune that packs in more notes per measure than a scat singer on Dexedrine" :rofl:

Most adult organ players cannot play a Brazilian Samba with that much heart. (She's now 8 years old and composing her own music).

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[miguksaram]

no one under 15-16, and never less than 4 years is a good start

Why no less than 4 years? What is wrong with 3 years? Why no less than 5 years or 8 years?

Why do you think 4 should be the minimum?

 

[miguksaram]

Not the same. A talented child in martial arts may be talented for their age, but they do not wear adult gear, they do not spar adults, or grapple adults, or have to defeat adults.

Not always true. I know a couple of younger kids ranging 13-16 who do fight adults and do win. So in essence they can be compared to the likes of the prodigy pianist or violinist of the same age group.

 

[Steve]

So, I'm just gonna throw this out. There are a lot of people saying that an adult black belt isn't the same as a kids black belt. Well, maybe it shouldn't be the same, but how many adult black belts are there who functionally as ill equipped as the 8 year old to effectively defend themselves?

What I mean is, if we're talking about standards, shouldn't we start with the adults?

 

[Twin Fist]

because IN MY EXPERIENCE, it takes the average person a minimum of 4 years to correctly learn how to move, kick, and punch.

sure there are people who just get it, who will achieve the required level of skill faster, and some who will take longer, but we are taking about average.

it isnt that it takes four years to learn the techniques, it is that it takes that long to learn how to move, to develop the balance, timing and focus required.

that answer your question?

Why no less than 4 years? What is wrong with 3 years? Why no less than 5 years or 8 years?

Why do you think 4 should be the minimum?

 

[Twin Fist]

god yes

So, I'm just gonna throw this out. There are a lot of people saying that an adult black belt isn't the same as a kids black belt. Well, maybe it shouldn't be the same, but how many adult black belts are there who functionally as ill equipped as the 8 year old to effectively defend themselves?

What I mean is, if we're talking about standards, shouldn't we start with the adults?

 

[MA-Caver]

Child prodigy is one thing, they've a natural talent for it and all that. But me thinks most of the belt ranks are mainly for the parents who shell out the dough to pay for their children's *ahem* education in the MA and thus want something to "show for it". That the child sees themselves progressing in ranks is good for them too.
A clear distinction must be made of course between the differences of a jr. BB and an full fledged BB held by an adult. The article stated the girl was a BB with no such distinction. Granted that news-media don't usually provide such differences. So she could be a Jr. BB or a tiny dragon or whatever that school chooses to call them.
If that's the case then alright then, good for her and here's to looking for a great MA future.

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

I hate to be a one upper but in Rancho Penasquitos, California, several years ago a 4 year old girl was given her Black Belt in Tae Kwon Do.
Her parents run a Sushi restaurant on Penasquitos Road just West of Interstate 15, It is called Sushi USA. They have a little shrine in the restaurant with news articles, and memorabilia of their daughters achievement. She is in High School now I believe, or possibly college.. I remember when that one happened, I was stuck between disgusted and laughter.

I also have to mention that when I lived in the San Francisco Bay Area for a few years I went around and visited dozens and dozens of schools, and the one that I would say had the best fighters was a Tae Kwon Do school called Golden State Tae Kwon Do, with an instructor named Eddie Croft, who also happened to be a Championship Boxing contender.. who would have guessed.