The View of an Afterlife - Positive or Negative?

[Sukerkin]

I came across this blog video by Penn (of Penn and teller) which struck me as quite insightful in it's own way about the nature of belief and the effect that having an atheist or non-atheist viewpoint can have on you when you experience the death of someone close to you.

Have a look and see what you think:

http://crackle.com/c/Penn_Says/Penn_says-_Atheism_is_a_Solace/2280592/#ml=o=9&fc=52&fp=-2&fx=

 

[Kacey]

Well, first, I have to say that it was delivered in a parenthetical and disjointed style that made it horribly hard for me to concentrate on what he was saying; however, I did make it to the end of the video.

A few thoughts on the topic:

Funerals are for the living, not the dead. They are to help those alive deal with the loss of those who have died. A phrase the comes up in every Jewish worship service that includes the Mourner's Kaddish (prayer for the dead) that I have attended is "May the Source of peace bring peace to all who mourn, and comfort to the bereaved among us." Notice that this is aimed at those left behind - not at those who are dead.

The concept of an afterlife exists in many cultures, in a variety of fashions. If you grow up in a culture that includes an afterlife, then to decide you do not believe in an afterlife requires you to consciously reject that belief - and even so, for many people, a niggling doubt remains, due to a need to plan for all possibilities, along with the difficulty of completely rooting out childhood training.

For myself, I have a problem with the idea that all life as we know it is a proving ground that leads to eternal punishment or salvation - if only because of the number of people who have tried to convert me with based on the idea that, as a Jew, I am damned to Hell no matter how I live my life, or console me with the idea that I am condemned to Limbo, that I can access only the very outer reaches of Heaven, or (my personal favorite), that I will spend the afterlife in a type of "college" where I will have until Judgment Day to change my mind about my beliefs so I can be saved, lest I spend the remaining portion of Eternity in Hell.

To return more directly to the concept of atheism as a consolation - all I can say is that everyone is different, everyone responds to grief differently, and if the concept described works for you, great! That does not mean to me, however, that it is appropriate to tell anyone who believes in an afterlife and takes comfort from that belief that such belief is wrong - especially immediately following the loss of a loved one.

When I was about 10, a great-uncle of mine (whom I had never met) died of age in his upper 90s, quietly, in his sleep, without any protracted illness or disability. The rabbi who conducted the funeral service included an idea that has stayed with me to this day, some 30 years later: we should not grieve for this relative, who died peacefully at the end of a long, productive life - rather, we should consider that life is like a journey in a sail boat, that his life was the journey from port, through the storms, shoals, and calms of his life, and that he had, now, returned peacefully to dock. Others would no doubt find this as useless as Penn's friend found his message about his mother's death.

 

[Steel Tiger]

I have pondered this question from time to time. Given all the religious craziness we see all around us you wold think that not believing in a afterlife would be a positive thing. Afterall, how many extremely unpleasant people do you know who do 'good' work because they think it will get them into heaven regardless of how much an **** they are? All too often the afterlife, in Christian belief anyway, comes across as a place you can buy your way into. It has gotten to the point, as Kasey pointed out, where there are lesser degrees of afterlife just in case you did not accumulate the requisite numbers of appropriate deeds. So an atheist does not have this sought of thing to worry about.

On the other hand, an atheist also does not have that brain-deadening certainty that they will go to a better place after death. This might means he worries more about dying than the foamingly psychotic neo-Christian who is convinced he will go to heaven regardless of what he does because he pays lip service to the Sabbath and a collection of rituals.

(You may have picked up by this time I am no fan of the new breed of Christian)

Of course this does not take into account the other beliefs in the world. The traditional Chinese belief, for instance, has everybody go to hell for a short period before moving on to whatever is next for them. Hindus whirl through a series of reincarnations before they achieve escape from the cycle either by going to heaven for a short time or gaining enlightenment and release.

Every belief with regard to what happens after death is supposed to stop people from fretting about the unknown, that really is what the mystery cults that arose during the time of the early Roman Empire were all about - what happens when we die?

My own belief is rather unusual. It is based in Taoist philosophy in that we are all part of something much larger. Yes, there is an individual 'me' which is immutable, but I might be human now, I will die, go back into the mixing bowl (or whatever) and come out as something else (rock, tree, gust of wind, who knows). Only one thing can influence what might happen and that is to live in accordance with the Tao. What that is I do not know, I have some guide lines about how to approach it but nothing clearcut. Do I fret about dying and beyond? No that would be pointless because I cannot do anything about it. All I can do is improve the way I live my life. I cannot improve my death without knowing the Tao.

 

[tellner]

Both belief in the continuation of something after death and the belief that it is not the case are forms of attachment and often indicative of a spiritual weakness such as hoping that you will escape the effects of your actions. We have no reliable information one way or another. Soon enough you will find out or not exist any longer.

So why fret about it? Make the most of your time here.

As far as it goes, heaven and hell are both traps, dead ends. Think about it. You're tortured forever or you're in church forever or you get to be the tinpot deity lording it over your own terrified creations or you're partying forever. Nowhere is there the possibility for continued growth, meaningful work or improvement. It seems like a waste of eternity.

 

[Tez3]

I'm with Kacey on this. I believe though that mourning rituals whatever religion or even no religion you have are comforting and useful. Whatever we believe happens when you die it's the people who are left that need comforting.
My Rabbi said he has a suspicion that heaven and hell were the same thing, that when you died you ended up in the presence of G-d, now depending on who you were and what you'd done this was either heaven or hell!
On the whole Jews believe that there is nothing after death, until the time comes for us all to be risen up. I do think that life comes first and we should do our best in this life whatever comes afterwards.

 

[MA-Caver]

Watching the video I was like Kacey, found it disjointed and hard to follow.
Then I realized that Penn while grieving apparently for the recent loss was struggling within himself. Basically trying to convince himself that he was atheist and that there was nothing more to it after death. .... he doesn't honestly deep down inside believe it.

People are atheist because it's a lot easier on their own psyche's to "not believe." You're born, you live, you die. That's it. Nothing more, end of story, lets make the best of it all. Simple, no complications in that aspect of living. One can grieve the loss of a great, fine, wonderful human being in our lives but that's experienced and then we move on. When we die our memories die with us or at least are carried on in some memorial (on line, in books, films, or whatever) for those we "leave behind".

Believing in an afterlife however requires faith. For some it takes a lot and for others (like myself) not much. By whatever faith/religion this act of faith takes work. It has to be nurtured according to it's needs. Problem is I think people invest not in the needs of themselves but in the needs of whatever faith/religion they choose to believe in. Going to church on Sunday, teaching Sunday school classes, visiting with the elderly, providing comfort to those in need, singing in a choir, reading the bible often (or whatever book of doctrine is there in their religion), prayer, and on and on. But they rarely attend to the needs of their faith. They hope all that work they do will do that for them.
Some will have fulfillment and others just a glossed over idea of fulfillment.
Either way it affects how they view life after they or (someone) dies.

I've recently had the opportunity attend a memorial service and to observe a family who have lost a "loved one". Honestly, they didn't seem too broken up about it. Were they atheists? Not particularly, they have a faith but probably haven't attended a church service in years. The grandmother was really the only one who was broken up and crying a lot. She attends church services roughly 3-4 times a month weekly.
Speaking briefly with the others they simply have a hope that the one who died has gone on to a better place and is with their family who are also residing in that better place wherever it may be according to their beliefs.

For myself I have to believe there is a life beyond this one. My own inner-self requires it. I've had far too many spiritual experiences NOT to believe, both within and without. But I try to keep it simple. To have faith, as Jesus Christ once put it; as that of a little child. Or to have faith the grain of a mustard seed.
You tell a child that you'll take them to the ice-cream store and they'll believe you will. Simple as that. They believe it because you said so. They have an understanding and hold on to it. If it doesn't happen, they'll be disappointed and will ponder the "why's?" and will probably ask but will accept whatever you answer (or not) you give them. Their faith will be based on that henceforth. Keep to your words and the child believes you and will continue to believe you until you fail in that word.

How can we as powerful as we are not believe in an afterlife? Powerful in spiritual matters. Here on MT we talk about Chi often, though many of us still differ in what it means. Whatever it is, it is an energy created by life. What creates life? Our spirit. I believe in (and have seen) ghosts. What are they? To me they're spirits that have "missed the boat" so to speak. Or stubbornly cling to this earthly plane of existence.

For me death isn't an end, but a beginning. A new beginning and knowing that having the faith that I have for myself the beginning will be a glorious one. Thus knowing that we can/should mourn the loss of a great, fine, wonderful human being that we have individually and collectively known but just the loss to ourselves. For them we should be happy they have gone on and be happy in the knowing that they at least will continue, as we will when our time here has ended.
There's a line in a hymn (I think) that says: "Fear not for I shew you a mystery; we shall not sleep, but shall be changed."

 

[Sukerkin]

I know that it's a bit odd that I 'Thanked' every poster in the thread so far - I can't possibly agree with you all after all . But what I hoped to get with this thread is a spectrum of peoples views on the subject, regardless of whether they are religious or not; and that is what we are getting (admittedly the bias is on the religionist side of the scale so far but maybe that will balance over time).

Don't let the conversational nature of the vid throw you - it's a blog after all, not a prepared statement and as Caver noted, Penn was clearly struggling at certain points to contain his own emotions when he spoke about the passing of his parents.

It's the core of whether there is an afterlife or not I was intrigued by and the implications of that on how people deal with death.

For myself, I'm an agnostic-verging-on-atheist and have a difficult time coming to terms with the concept of life-after-death when I do not believe that one (of several to choose from) powerful spirit beings created the whole multi-verse. It requires a rationalisation of which I am unable to conjure a solution.

What I choose to believe, similar in concept to what ST talked about above, is that the cycle of life may be eternal and we are all part of that recycling process. We came form the stars quite literally (in terms of what our bodies are made of) and we will eventually return when the sun goes kaboom. Until then that of which we are made rolls around and around.

What happens to the energy that is our consciousness - ah there's the rub.

I'll have to get back into this tomorrow as I've just had guests arrive, so forgive my making half a proposition and I'll talk to you chaps tomorrow ...

 

[Empty Hands]

People are atheist because it's a lot easier on their own psyche's to "not believe."

Uh yeah, since you're not an atheist, perhaps you shouldn't declare how all of their minds work?

For some atheists, coming to grips with their lack of belief is extraordinarily difficult, involving huge amounts of guilt and shame within themselves, and disapproval and disgust from others. Definitely not the lazy path. For many others, they have simply always been that way, it is in their natures - just as a need to believe in an afterlife is part of your nature, as you have said. They are no more lazy than you.

For myself, it took years to admit to myself that I didn't believe anymore, that I had no reason to believe and no conviction for it. It was much longer before I could admit it to my wife, which caused all sorts of strife and problems. She has calmed down a lot, but I think she is still convinced I will "grow out of it" one day. There are other family members I will never tell. It would have been much easier to stay a squishy Christian and go to Christmas and Easter services once a year and never deal with it otherwise, like the majority of so-called Christians in this country.

As for the lack of belief itself, it has been extraordinarily freeing. No more dogma to defend and explicate. No more competing religious dicta to rationalize away or compromise together like a creaky Frankenstein. I no longer have to try to believe irrational things, or feel bad that I don't believe in irrational things. I also no longer have to believe in infinite punishment for finite crimes, which is nice.

We are responsible for ourselves, in the here-and-now, and that is the most freeing part of atheism. Also why so many people seem to hate and fear it so!

 

[morph4me]

I didn't watch the blog, but I have my own thoughts on the subject. I don't think it really matters if there's life after death or not, we're all going to die and that's a fact, nothing we can do about it but postpone it as long as we can. I've always considered death as just another phase of life, not unlike all the other phases we go through, crawling to walking, childhood to adulthood etc. I agree with Kacey that funerals and other rituals of mourning are for the living, those left behind. I would prefer that those I leave behind don't mourn my death, because it's inevitable, but celebrate my life, because that means I made an impression and possibly, a difference.

 

[MA-Caver]

Uh yeah, since you're not an atheist, perhaps you shouldn't declare how all of their minds work?

That was not the declaration of my post and you should know me well enough by now to know that I intended no offense to ANYONE. It's an opinion. I'm sorry if you find it offensive.

As for the lack of belief itself, it has been extraordinarily freeing. No more dogma to defend and explicate. No more competing religious dicta to rationalize away or compromise together like a creaky Frankenstein. I no longer have to try to believe irrational things, or feel bad that I don't believe in irrational things. I also no longer have to believe in infinite punishment for finite crimes, which is nice.

We are responsible for ourselves, in the here-and-now, and that is the most freeing part of atheism. Also why so many people seem to hate and fear it so!

As offensive as it may be you proved my point that being "freer" by being atheist has made your life easier, simple and one less thing to worry/fret about on what happens when/after you die. It's what I meant by easier on the psyche in my OP.

Being an athiest is a choice made by an individual after searching and thought. I neither fear nor hate them. Nor do I pity them like some of those "so called Christians". It is what they/you choose to believe and that's fine. I respect their decision as they respect mine. I've numerous friends that are atheists and have no problem getting along with them.

Peace. :asian:

 

[Empty Hands]

That was not the declaration of my post and you should know me well enough by now to know that I intended no offense to ANYONE. It's an opinion. I'm sorry if you find it offensive.

Fair enough! You should know though that a similar point is made by many fundamentalists against atheists: that they are atheists because they are lazy or want to sin.

It's what I meant by easier on the psyche in my OP.

I understand your point more clearly now, but it still isn't true for all atheists. Some of them have a great deal of mental difficulty deciding what their ethics and responsibilities should be based on, the purpose to their life, and their place among humanity and the universe. From a different point of view, having a great big Cosmic Authority tell you exactly what everything means is by far the easier path! Not easier for me because that Cosmic Authority, at least the one I grew up learning about, was irrational, contradictory, and unjust - but my experience is not universal.

Being an athiest is a choice made by an individual after searching and thought.... It is what they/you choose to believe and that's fine.

I no more made the choice than you did. This is a common misconception about atheism, and theism. People either believe or don't believe, it isn't a choice. If it was, you could wake up tomorrow morning and decide you are an atheist. Only problem, that little god-belief and need will be still knocking around your psyche.

That is why I described my atheism as a "coming to grips" process. I didn't believe, I just had to admit that to myself. No choice involved. Gay people for one describe a similar process, and for similar reasons.

 

[karate-dragon]

First of all hard to even take Penn's comments seriously when under the video is a tag line on dinner with a pornographer. For myself I have wanted to find an answer to life after death or not since I was a teenager. Way past that now, and still have no answers, no voice from beyond from a best friend or my dad. But, you can only look at your life and what you feel. I feel that I was meant from the first second I saw my husband that we were destined to be together and it's 25 years later. I feel that my daughter and I are so connected and sometimes it's as though we change roles (maybe in another life the roles were reversed?). I feel that enough connections are there and meant to be there that there has to be a continuation of energy and the soul at some point. But who's to know until we know?

 

[Empty Hands]

For myself I have wanted to find an answer to life after death or not since I was a teenager.

Today is your lucky day! The answer is "no."

 

[terryl965]

I didn't watch the blog, but I have my own thoughts on the subject. I don't think it really matters if there's life after death or not, we're all going to die and that's a fact, nothing we can do about it but postpone it as long as we can. I've always considered death as just another phase of life, not unlike all the other phases we go through, crawling to walking, childhood to adulthood etc. I agree with Kacey that funerals and other rituals of mourning are for the living, those left behind. I would prefer that those I leave behind don't mourn my death, because it's inevitable, but celebrate my life, because that means I made an impression and possibly, a difference.

Now morph I have to dis-agree, I believe they will come up with something so I can live forever. The Ultimate post whore extreme can never truely die, I need to post forever.:high5::lol:

 

[morph4me]

Now morph I have to dis-agree, I believe they will come up with something so I can live forever. The Ultimate post whore extreme can never truely die, I need to post forever.:high5::lol:

You will live on as a shining example of what it truly means to be a post whore in the memories of generations to come :asian:

 

[MA-Caver]

but celebrate my life, because that means I made an impression and possibly, a difference.

Whuddaya mean possibly???

This goes for everyone else too. :uhyeah:

Of course we make a difference. Just by being here and contributing to each other we make a difference. Nothing we do is for naught.

 

[Mr G]

Hello and greetings to all,
This subject obviously has no right answer. I just watched the Penn's comments and I think he was talking more about the living's response to the death of a loved one. He is right, the "she's in a better place" or "it's for the best" type of comment can be very hard at the time of loss.

For the sake of disclosure: I'm an ER Nurse, and I work (mostly) in a pediatric ER. So, this subject makes me think of the death of a child. The pain piercing the family is so severe I feel there is almost nothing comforting to say. I can only offer my sorrow, my empathy. I try to stick to "I'm sorry". and I cry...

For my own beliefs. I completely believe I Don't know. I don't understand a merciful God who creates cancer. But I also see a universe that is too complex for random chance. When I consider any individual life, I sometimes think of a book. When it ends, it ends. Shut the cover, there is nothing more. But you can take the ideas and the stories and essence of it and remember those parts that are worth remembering to you. I hope I'm at least a decent read.

 

[ArmorOfGod]

I like the view of the Mac Nac Feegles in Terry Pratchet's Wee Free Men book.
They believe they are dead now. They are having so much fun drinking and fighting that this must be heaven and they must have been really good during life to deserve this.


AoG

 

[Empty Hands]

But I also see a universe that is too complex for random chance.

It's not. I can elaborate if you like.

 

[SageGhost83]

Heavy topic, Sukerkin, but a darn good one. My view of the afterlife is neither negative nor positive, it is neutral - just like my view of the world of the living. I am not a religious person. I used to be, and I even got baptised. I still help out with the church every now and then. However, when I was younger, I began to do the one thing that the church discourages - I began to question and seek answers on my own. Well, the more I questioned, the more I learned, and the more I learned, the more I began to realize that I just couldn't go on believing in something that was contrived by man from various other religions that are readily called myths but yet somehow are true when they appear in my religion because they were "christianized". Sorry, I just couldn't bite anymore. Another problem was the whole forcing yourself to believe thing - I learned to accept myself and my views as they were. If I felt that something just wasn't right, then I should accept that feeling, not deny it and try to force myself to believe even against my own intuition. As far as the afterlife, do I believe in it? Yes, I do. I don't believe in heaven or hell or anything like that, but I believe, like yin and yang, that everything has a counterpart, a spiritual world being the counterpart of the physical. I think that the afterlife is for everybody, not just for people who believe in a particular religion. Why do I believe in the afterlife? As a paranormal investigator, I know from personal experience that death is definitely not the end, not by a long shot. It is only a transition. I have many friends who were hardcore skeptics and strict materialists (you meet all kinds in college:lol2 and they laughed at me and told me that I was crazy. Then I took them up to Gettysburg and spent the night near Reynold's Woods with them and well, it is funny to see just how fast one's opinion changes when he/she actually experiences it for themselves. Needless to say, I went from being perceived as someone who was totally irrational to being percieved as a well educated individual in the know (over night, literally :lol2. I think what is most important is that we explore this in our own way while being open to the myriad possibilities that exist.