The Two Karate's: Self-Defense & Sport

[Wing Woo Gar71 32]

Military combatives slap jitsu.

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And I am going to suggest there are two important options that drive this sort of training over L.I.N.E. training.

Everyone is a martial artist. Untill you get punched in the face.

And.

Timing trumps technique.

And I think both of these opinions are essential to giving people the fundamental tools to fight. And I don't believe there is a way around getting those fundamental tools.

I don't believe yelling, screaming, being angry, being told how much of a killer you are. Actually works all that well. Because it is about winning.

And fighting is about loosing. About training in an environment that loosing has consequences. Fighting people where loosing is a real option and dealing with that.

Well said.

 

[Wing Woo Gar71 32]

On that subject I would intuitively believe the only kills from soldiers unarmed in war would be from choking people to death.

I know of one guy who did that. But that is a small sample size.

https://www.news.com.au/national/diggers-defend-killer-commando-sergeant-paul-cale/news-story/c94fc2c50bad257fcfbba41e81af714a

Reportedly, my uncle used a knife twice in Vietnam, but I never heard him actually say that.

 

[Wing Woo Gar71 32]

On that subject I would intuitively believe the only kills from soldiers unarmed in war would be from choking people to death.

I know of one guy who did that. But that is a small sample size.

https://www.news.com.au/national/diggers-defend-killer-commando-sergeant-paul-cale/news-story/c94fc2c50bad257fcfbba41e81af714a

You did say unarmed. My apologies.

 

[isshinryuronin26 26]

“Tournament Karate isn’t real Karate”. or “the true essence of Karate is contrary to competition karate”

This is true. Basic strategies, goals, engagement distances and techniques are different.

yet it’s hard to find a karateka who hasn’t taken part in a tournament of some description.

It's fun and does provide some elements of true combat. No harm as long as one does not forget they are two different things.

The lure of shiny baubles, titles and bragging rights is too much for the human ego…

Tournaments can help test one's mental mettle and fighting spirit - it doesn't have to be about ego.

 

[Gyakuto136 145]

Tournaments can help test one's mental mettle and fighting spirit - it doesn't have to be about ego.

I think that’s right but it always is

My heart breaks when I see the fighting WKF tournament fighting. It’s so far removed from Karate.

 

[isshinryuronin26 26]

Tournament Karate isn’t real Karate”.

This is true.

To clarify: Sport karate is a type of karate, but not the kind it was created for or intended to be. It is an evolutionary branch-off of "real" karate, modified, restructured, and constrained to serve a new purpose, a purpose not endorsed by several masters of the early 1900's and to a fair extent, today. It is a partial expression of pre-1920 (pre-Japanese) karate that has developed into its own specialized genre. Taken in this light, it is "real" as it certainly exists and is quite prevalent.

Like classical symphonic music and hard rock, they can co-exist and be enjoyed but are quite different from each other in complexity, tone, beat and instrumentation for the most part. Some like one or the other, some like both.

 

[drop bear135 10]

To clarify: Sport karate is a type of karate, but not the kind it was created for or intended to be. It is an evolutionary branch-off of "real" karate, modified, restructured, and constrained to serve a new purpose, a purpose not endorsed by several masters of the early 1900's and to a fair extent, today. It is a partial expression of pre-1920 (pre-Japanese) karate that has developed into its own specialized genre. Taken in this light, it is "real" as it certainly exists and is quite prevalent.

Like classical symphonic music and hard rock, they can co-exist and be enjoyed but are quite different from each other in complexity, tone, beat and instrumentation for the most part. Some like one or the other, some like both.

Your music metaphor is wrong. And kind of wrong for martial arts as well for basically the same reason.

 

[isshinryuronin26 26]

Your music metaphor is wrong.

Perhaps it was a bit off, though I did specify "hard" rock. Metallica is basically a hard rock band but this number I don't think of as "hard." The Moody Blues and ELO also incorporated symphonic music, but I wouldn't call them hard rock groups.

quite different from each other in complexity, tone, beat and instrumentation for the most part

I still think this holds true.

And kind of wrong for martial arts as well for basically the same reason.

In what way?

 

[Kung Fu Wang136 167]

To clarify: Sport karate is a type of karate, but not the kind it was created for or intended to be.

I'm interested to know how self-defense people test their MA skill.

Do you use

1. partner drill to develop your skill (your opponent gives you that chance)?
2. sparring to test your skill (your opponent won't give you that chance)?

If you do 2, you are a "sport" person by definition.

 

[drop bear135 10]

Perhaps it was a bit off, though I did specify "hard" rock. Metallica is basically a hard rock band but this number I don't think of as "hard." The Moody Blues and ELO also incorporated symphonic music, but I wouldn't call them hard rock groups.


I still think this holds true.


In what way?

They did a whole album. It is quite good.

So in the same way Metallica is basically classical music. But with heavier drums and angry vocals.

It is this very strict disciplined piece of music that requires this precise integration.

Effectively a Metallica guitarist could sit in the philharmonic and play a classical piece.

A violinist could sit in with Metallica.

The fundamental skills are the same.


In the same way the fundamental skills of martial arts are kind of sort of the same. A sportsman could fight in a battlefield. A competent SD guy could compete.

Or they can't. In which case it is probably them. Not the specific environment.

(Steve Vai played both parts in that duel)

 

[isshinryuronin26 26]

I'm interested to know how self-defense people test their MA skill.

Do you use

1. partner drill to develop your skill (your opponent gives you that chance)?
2. sparring to test your skill (your opponent won't give you that chance)?

If you do 2, you are a "sport" person by definition.

I don't accept your premises. There should be a progression from low to high resistance by your partner, offering less and less of a chance, ending at the point before probable injury.

This is different from (karate) sparring which is inherently sport as the techniques will be more limited, longer ranged, and generally have more give and take than pure self-defense training. Also, in sparring you are working against an opponent fighting mainly the same way you are, unlike in self-defense where the attacker and you are generally fighting in different ways.

Unless one engages in full contact there is a limit to physical realism in the interest of safety. Many wrestling moves can be done to full execution with relative safety. In a striking art, executing a technique to full completion against an opponent will result in impact and injury. In solo drills, this must be imagined, having lethal intent when doing techniques to develop the mental state of mind.

I have no problem engaging in both activities, being aware they are to a good extent different things.

 

[Kung Fu Wang136 167]

I don't accept your premises. There should be a progression from low to high resistance by your partner,

IMO, self-defense guys still train in sport. They just don't realize it. I throw a kick at your chest. You block my kick. That's sport because I try to kick you, but you won't allow me to do it. When you block my kick, you win and I lose. It's a "test" of my kicking skill against your blocking skill. So, it's "sport" by definition.

This is not sport. I kick at your chest. You intentionally not to block my kick and allow my kick to land on your chest.

 

[Same Trick81 32]

So many Karateka say things like, “Tournament Karate isn’t real Karate”. or “the true essence of Karate is contrary to competition karate” and yet it’s hard to find a karateka who hasn’t taken part in a tournament of some description.

To understand the true way one must have experience of the false way. No?

May the 4:th be with us

 

[Kung Fu Wang136 167]

One day I asked a guy why he only trained punch and never trained kick. His respond was, "Why do I need to train kicking if my punch can kill you?"

I assume he is not a "MA for sport" guy.

 

[Gyakuto136 145]

To understand the true way one must have experience of the false way. No?

Not really. Someone can just describe it well and I’d understand. I don’t have to go through everything to understand - life’s just too short for that.

 

[Kung Fu Wang136 167]

To understand the true way one must have experience of the false way. No?

To understand the true way one must have experience of the true way.

If you have tried "rhino guard" the 1st time, you will love it. 3 days ago, I showed it to a young MT guy on the beach. He loved it big time.

 

[Same Trick81 32]

Not really. Someone can just describe it well and I’d understand. I don’t have to go through everything to understand - life’s just too short for that.

Ok ok then, so you leach on someone else true/false experience

 

[Same Trick81 32]

To understand the true way one must have experience of the true way.

If you have tried "rhino guard" the 1st time, you will love it. 3 days ago, I showed it to a young MT guy on the beach. He loved it big time.

Will you follow it up, see how the young MT guy fare with your guard in MT competitions?

 

[Gyakuto136 145]

Ok ok then, so you leach on someone else true/false experience

I’m not sure what ‘leach’ mean in this context?

 

[Wing Woo Gar71 32]

I’m not sure what ‘leach’ mean in this context?

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