The Two Karate's: Self-Defense & Sport

[drop bear135 10]

It's likely there was no "sparring" in the sense of taking turns attacking and defending, give and take in a competitive match (or practicing for one). It was all "taking." The aim was to dispatch the opponent ASAP, the strategy being to attack without the possibility of countering until he was crushed. In close quarters actual combat there is little time to engage in fancy tactics. It's very direct and offensive. This was the doctrine Motobu Choki followed.

Most training, it is thought, was in the form of intensive two-man drills, much like modern special forces combat training. They do not learn to "spar." They practice to incapacitate and kill without sending their training partner to the hospital. During the 1800's many of the practitioners were government security personnel trained to be prepared for serious combat and had experience in such encounters.

That has pretty much changed in the military.

 

[HighKick]

That has pretty much changed in the military.

That was always a Massive flaw in traditional 1-step sparring. The formality of it makes it completely unrealistic. 3-step (or more) is much better and includes a ton more scenarios and positions.
The day's of the 'one hit wonder' are largely over, sans a good bar fighter.

 

[isshinryuronin26 26]

That was always a Massive flaw in traditional 1-step sparring. The formality of it makes it completely unrealistic. 3-step (or more) is much better and includes a ton more scenarios and positions.
The day's of the 'one hit wonder' are largely over, sans a good bar fighter.

It is unrealistic in a fight, but not for practice. 1 step sparring is for beginners to learn distance, timing/reaction and how basic techniques work. One then progresses to 3-step where multiple types of attacks/angles are used and then to free sparring. It's a progression, each building skill, layer by layer. While compound attacks are the goal, one should never ignore the opportunity for a "one-hit wonder." If your timing is good, they do come by occasionally.

 

[gspell68]

I think each one should adapt to their strenght and weakness. My strengths are high pain treshold, high power but my weakness is fairly low cardio-endurance.

Also known as…

 

[isshinryuronin26 26]

So if sports karate works for self defence.

It is self defence karate.

Only in a broad sense. The fact that a newspaper or towel can be used against an attacker doesn't classify them as self-defense weapons. They are not designed for that application - only thru adaptation/modification can they be most effectively used for that purpose.

 

[Same Trick81 32]

It's likely there was no "sparring" in the sense of taking turns attacking and defending, give and take in a competitive match (or practicing for one). It was all "taking." The aim was to dispatch the opponent ASAP, the strategy being to attack without the possibility of countering until he was crushed. In close quarters actual combat there is little time to engage in fancy tactics. It's very direct and offensive. This was the doctrine Motobu Choki followed.

Most training, it is thought, was in the form of intensive two-man drills, much like modern special forces combat training. They do not learn to "spar." They practice to incapacitate and kill without sending their training partner to the hospital. During the 1800's many of the practitioners were government security personnel trained to be prepared for serious combat and had experience in such encounters.

The interview with Hohan Soken I linked to in the other thread mentions that wrestling(as an activity and serious competition) was an important part of Okinawan tradition and to the old way of Karate.
In one of Gishin Funakoshis book same’ish is mentioned

 

[drop bear135 10]

Only in a broad sense. The fact that a newspaper or towel can be used against an attacker doesn't classify them as self-defense weapons. They are not designed for that application - only thru adaptation/modification can they be most effectively used for that purpose.

Ok. So a baseball bat is a sports implement.

 

[isshinryuronin26 26]

The interview with Hohan Soken I linked to in the other thread mentions that wrestling(as an activity and serious competition) was an important part of Okinawan tradition and to the old way of Karate.
In one of Gishin Funakoshis book same’ish is mentioned

Yes. Nagamine also mentions that tegumi was a popular sport among Okinawa's youth, especially in the rural areas. It was a robust form of submission wrestling where injuries were not uncommon. Not much is known about the history or the specific techniques used in the past. A form of it is still practiced though I imagine its current version is more toned down and structured.

Some of it may have found its way into karate during the early days, but it would be hard to say what portion of karate's grappling is from tegumi and what part is from qin-na or chu'an-fa brought back from China by the early masters in the 1800's. Jiu-jutsu is also a likely source, brought to Okinawa by the Satsuma occupiers and taught to the Shuri security people. I would guess that tegumi would a rather minor portion for several reasons.

 

[punisher73]

That has pretty much changed in the military.

The military does more "sparring" now because they use it to develop a fighting spirit. It isn't focused more on the previous h2h method of killing/maiming your enemy.

 

[drop bear135 10]

The military does more "sparring" now because they use it to develop a fighting spirit. It isn't focused more on the previous h2h method of killing/maiming your enemy.

Which for some reason didn't produce fighting spirit as effectively?

I assume you are discussing LINE training which was kind of the previous system.

 

[HighKick]

It is unrealistic in a fight, but not for practice. 1 step sparring is for beginners to learn distance, timing/reaction and how basic techniques work. One then progresses to 3-step where multiple types of attacks/angles are used and then to free sparring. It's a progression, each building skill, layer by layer. While compound attacks are the goal, one should never ignore the opportunity for a "one-hit wonder." If your timing is good, they do come by occasionally.

We have never done them as a progression into free sparring since they are so inherently different.
Yes, they can teach stance-work but just a little footwork. We focus them as self-defense tools, Not sparring tools. Yes, there is overlap, but the mindset if very different. This infers back to one/three-steps being self-defense focused.
If I decide to go hands-on I already know what my first move is going to be. So, yes I might have a 'on hit wonder' move in mind but I cannot in good faith suggest that to someone I have never met on a forum.

 

[drop bear135 10]

Most training, it is thought, was in the form of intensive two-man drills, much like modern special forces combat training. They do not learn to "spar." They practice to incapacitate and kill without sending their training partner to the hospital. During the 1800's many of the practitioners were government security personnel trained to be prepared for serious combat and had experience in such encounters.

Military combatives slap jitsu.

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And I am going to suggest there are two important options that drive this sort of training over L.I.N.E. training.

Everyone is a martial artist. Untill you get punched in the face.

And.

Timing trumps technique.

And I think both of these opinions are essential to giving people the fundamental tools to fight. And I don't believe there is a way around getting those fundamental tools.

I don't believe yelling, screaming, being angry, being told how much of a killer you are. Actually works all that well. Because it is about winning.

And fighting is about loosing. About training in an environment that loosing has consequences. Fighting people where loosing is a real option and dealing with that.

 

[drop bear135 10]

On that subject I would intuitively believe the only kills from soldiers unarmed in war would be from choking people to death.

I know of one guy who did that. But that is a small sample size.

https://www.news.com.au/national/diggers-defend-killer-commando-sergeant-paul-cale/news-story/c94fc2c50bad257fcfbba41e81af714a

 

[isshinryuronin26 26]

Timing trumps technique... giving people the fundamental tools to fight. And I don't believe there is a way around getting those fundamental tools.

Being able to recognize/create openings for attack and the timing to exploit them are certainly at the top of the list for a good fighter. Technique (form) is important as it allows the attack to be more efficient and can reduce risk. Speed is good too, but timing makes everything work.

And fighting is about loosing. About training in an environment that loosing has consequences. Fighting people where loosing is a real option and dealing with that.

I agree. Having the experience of getting knocked around and maintaining clarity to still be able to execute an offense is important. And paying some price for mistakes (usually in pain) is a great teacher to not repeat them. If you remove the risk factor, as is sometimes overdone in TMA, IMO one's real MA skills cannot advance.

If you minimize the chances of losing, you gain more chances for winning.

 

[goldenglory86]

Tbh, I prefer the self defense aspect and not the sport. No rules over the full contact no face punches.

 

[Gyakuto136 145]

So many Karateka say things like, “Tournament Karate isn’t real Karate”. or “the true essence of Karate is contrary to competition karate” and yet it’s hard to find a karateka who hasn’t taken part in a tournament of some description.

The lure of shiny baubles, titles and bragging rights is too much for the human ego…

 

[Wing Woo Gar71 32]

The time limit thing has always been a weird idea for me.

So competition fighters are at a high risk of getting knocked out. When the other guy is fresh and fast and they don't know what to expect from them.

So they often won't commit to this high risk high reward system of jumping in the pocket and having a slug fest. And that's why they hang back and throw ones and two's.

Its just a bit safer.

Now lets take a completely random guy. Get rid of weight classes Take all the padding off their hands and make the consequences of getting knocked out really bad.

And tell me. Why would you do that?

What sort of desperate hurry are you in?


A street fight example of hanging back and just picking the other person off.

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The reasons to hurry are extra opponents, weapons being deployed, police interference, being identified on video.

 

[Wing Woo Gar71 32]

That was always a Massive flaw in traditional 1-step sparring. The formality of it makes it completely unrealistic. 3-step (or more) is much better and includes a ton more scenarios and positions.
The day's of the 'one hit wonder' are largely over, sans a good bar fighter.

Um ok, are you aware of worldstar? People getting one shots all day everyday, often at 3 AM in a Waffle House. Worldstar.com They post fades.

 

[Wing Woo Gar71 32]

Also known as…
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Quoting this guy?

 

[Wing Woo Gar71 32]

Ok. So a baseball bat is a sports implement.

And not a very useful weapon unless cut down. Pretty easy to get past once they swing it.