"The Taikyoku Problem"

[Flying Crane]

wow a lot of that reminds me of things done in Jow Ga

Not surprising. 🙂

 

[JowGaWolf]

Interesting, thanks for sharing it!

No problem. I hope it sparks some ideas

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I don’t think anyone in this thread has expressed anti-kata sentiments or claimed that kata is useless. The OP was just expressing their opinion that one particular kata might not be the ideal starting kata for beginners and suggested some alternatives. Many of the other commenters argue that the particular kata in question does have value both for beginners and more advanced students. Where are you seeing anyone in this thread suggesting that kata (in general) is useless?

I stand corrected. It wasn't all kata. But it kind of blends into the usual anti-kata sentiments from people who don't understand kata. My reaction was over the top. I'm sorry.

I practiced our dojo kata version of this kata last night. In the adult class. With black belts. It's not an isshinryu kata, but it's a dojo kata. We teach it to our students, adults and kids. Upper body exercises 5 through 15, excepting 11 and 12, in an H pattern. Very similar to what others do that I've seen.

Because it's basic exercises (kihon), it's as useful as those exercises are. If taikyoku isn't useful, neither are basics. It also teaches useful stances and transitions. If some students just can't get it, I question the instruction. If they can't find useful self-defense techniques inside this kata, same thing.

I'm sure part of my surly response is due to the constraints I'm currently under. I can't put in the work I want and love to do. My apologies.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

However, in my system we have a basic form, the first one taught. We do not teach it immediately. There are a series of isolated fundamentals that must be worked on first, in order to begin to understand the body mechanics that go into quality technique. This is foundational and fundamental stuff. If you don’t build this first, everything else will be weak. A foundation built of sand will cause the house to collapse. Build that foundation from reinforced concrete.

Once the foundation has been built, we teach the first form.

If you're going to train with solo forms, then I approve of this approach. It seems that in a lot of schools kata/form practice becomes an exercise in memorizing choreography without an understanding of the movements being practiced. I think that it makes a lot more sense for the student to understand the individual movements, techniques, and principles first before trying to string them together in a long sequence. Otherwise it's like someone trying to learn a language by memorizing entire poems without learning the vocabulary and grammar beforehand.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Otherwise it's like someone trying to learn a language by memorizing entire poems without learning the vocabulary and grammar beforehand.

Babies learn how to speak by learning the sounds and this is actually before the grammar. I've started studying Korean again.
I have my notes from when I was 20. I was going to invest in some fancy program but I thought about how kids learn so now this is how I learn

I think martial arts are like this video. Start small, master small and then grow (expand)

 

[Flying Crane]

If you're going to train with solo forms, then I approve of this approach. It seems that in a lot of schools kata/form practice becomes an exercise in memorizing choreography without an understanding of the movements being practiced. I think that it makes a lot more sense for the student to understand the individual movements, techniques, and principles first before trying to string them together in a long sequence. Otherwise it's like someone trying to learn a language by memorizing entire poems without learning the vocabulary and grammar beforehand.

Yes, that is often a big problem. People teach the techniques and even the foundation within the context of the form, and students are expected to rush through the form as fast as possible to make it “fighting spirit.” That is a nonsensical approach. That undermines the whole process and does make the practice worthless. Yes, for some people forms practice is worthless. They are not automatically or universally worthwhile.

Forms should be the next level up, after you have been taught the foundation. And within the body of forms, there are those that are more basic, they act as the first step up, and more complex forms are another step up from that.

And the forms are not the first step up. We learn the foundational stance work first, then the fundamental techniques in isolation on that stancework, to build basic body mechanics. Then we start stringing a series of basics together, on the stance. Then we start stepping and basic movement with one technique. Then with a series of techniques. Understand how to keep the foundation engaged within a moving scenario and changing techniques.

Then it is time for the most basic form. So a whole series of steps in increasing complexity happen first, building the foundation one block at a time. And then begin to work on technique application, again with the foundation in mind. Everything is built on the foundation, to make it powerful. Application can begin before forms are taught, actually they should be. But too often people focus on the superficial, which in my opinion is the application, and forget about the foundation. Foundation makes it all strong. Then application falls into place and becomes obvious.

Not every movement or combination found within the forms will have been taught as an isolated fundamental. But there is a broad body of fundamentals and and understanding of how to switch and make spontaneous combinations, so it is still functional to learn the complex forms when their time comes.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

a lot of schools kata/form practice becomes an exercise in memorizing choreography without an understanding of the movements being practiced.

There are 2 different ways to learn MA.

1. Learn solo form first. Learn application afterward.
2. Learn partner drills first. When doing partner drill without partner, you have solo drills. When you link solo drills into a sequence, you have solo form.

IMO, 1 < 2. The nice thing about method 2 is you can create your form any way you like.

- My long fist system uses method 1. I hate it.
- My Chinese wrestling system used method 2. I love it.

The issue is how to switch from method 1 into method 2.

Here is an example that partner drills -> solo drills -> solo form.

1, Partner drill:

2. Solo drill:

 

[JowGaWolf]

Yes, that is often a big problem. People teach the techniques and even the foundation within the context of the form, and students are expected to rush through the form as fast as possible to make it “fighting spirit.” That is a nonsensical approach. That undermines the whole process and does make the practice worthless. Yes, for some people forms practice is worthless. They are not automatically or universally worthwhile.

Forms should be the next level up, after you have been taught the foundation. And within the body of forms, there are those that are more basic, they act as the first step up, and more complex forms are another step up from that.

And the forms are not the first step up. We learn the foundational stance work first, then the fundamental techniques in isolation on that stancework, to build basic body mechanics. Then we start stringing a series of basics together, on the stance. Then we start stepping and basic movement with one technique. Then with a series of techniques. Understand how to keep the foundation engaged within a moving scenario and changing techniques.

Then it is time for the most basic form. So a whole series of steps in increasing complexity happen first, building the foundation one block at a time. And then begin to work on technique application, again with the foundation in mind. Everything is built on the foundation, to make it powerful. Application can begin before forms are taught, actually they should be. But too often people focus on the superficial, which in my opinion is the application, and forget about the foundation. Foundation makes it all strong. Then application falls into place and becomes obvious.

Not every movement or combination found within the forms will have been taught as an isolated fundamental. But there is a broad body of fundamentals and and understanding of how to switch and make spontaneous combinations, so it is still functional to learn the complex forms when their time comes.

One of the things I enjoy about training my son is that I can always refer to the foundations that you speak of to help bring clarification to the applications he training. I couldn't teach the same way to a person who didn't know those foundations. Like in that video with the punching, I would have made at least 5 references back to the stance so that they can understand how the stance applies to the drill.

 

[Flying Crane]

One of the things I enjoy about training my son is that I can always refer to the foundations that you speak of to help bring clarification to the applications he training. I couldn't teach the same way to a person who didn't know those foundations. Like in that video with the punching, I would have made at least 5 references back to the stance so that they can understand how the stance applies to the drill.

Exactly. I’m always referring back to it: “dig in, drive that foot down and use it to rotate the waist, get power for that punch from the feet”. And “when you turn here, don’t turn from the shoulders and drag your feet behind; drive it from the feet again and turn the body from below, LIKE EVERYTHING THAT WE DO.”

 

[JowGaWolf]

There are 2 different ways to learn MA.

1. Learn solo form first. Learn application afterward.
2. Learn partner drills first. When doing partner drill without partner, you have solo drills. When you link many solo drills in sequence, you have solo form.

IMO, 1 < 2.

- My long fist system uses method 1. I hate it.
- My Chinese wrestling system used method 2. I love it.

The issue is how to switch from method 1 into method 2.

Here is an example that partner drills -> solo drills -> solo form.

If you learn the form first then you'll have reference points that you can use when teaching training. It takes less instruction that way. Much of my son's current lessons are of me showing him part of the form that is being applied and telling him the motion is the same and this is how it's applied. Great for him. Horrible for a student who doesn't understand the movements that are present in specific parts in the form. My son has the added benefit of learning form someone who knows how to actually use it and his progress has been much faster than what it took to learn it on my own.

We still do forms but it's the last thing we do before weight lifting, so in a way it's closer #2 in one way. But there are some boxers and MMA guys taking pieces of the training I do with my son and use it in their training. I'll see how well it goes from them so see if the small stuff pops up in their training before the application stuff.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Exactly. I’m always referring back to it: “dig in, drive that foot down and use it to rotate the waist, get power for that punch from the feet”. And “when you turn here, don’t turn from the shoulders and drag your feet behind; drive it from the feet again and turn the body from below, LIKE EVERYTHING THAT WE DO.”

ha ha ha. I had a similar discussing with my son last night. I was telling him his feet (footwork) is more important than the punch. He was doing lazy footwork and I wanted to seem really apply that footwork as if he was trying to really hit me. I had to tell him not to worry about me. I'll get out of the way. I had no mouth piece. Yeah I'll move lol. But he's doing really good and coming along really well.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

So why can't we learn application (partner drill) first and solo form later?

Anybody wants to comment on this?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Forms should be the next level up, after you have been taught the foundation.

Agree! Forms should be the next level up, after you have been taught the "application".

1. Application:

2. Form:

 

[JowGaWolf]

So why can't we learn application (partner drill) first and solo form later?

Anybody wants to comment on this?

I'll let other people answer this, unless no one answers.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Agree! Forms should be the next level up, after you have been taught the "application".

1. Application:

2. Form:

I think you have to define what consist of application. Some schools teach what the technique is used for but never shows how to actually apply it. Other schools teach how to actually apply it.

 

[Flying Crane]

So why can't we learn application (partner drill) first and solo form later?

Anybody wants to comment on this?

You can. Some systems are constructed around that very idea. One example is the Parker derived kenpo lineages. I think the concept can work but in practice it can lead to some cumbersome curricula often fulled with some questionable ideas. Gotta make sure there is a functional engine under the hood and that those application drills work with that particular engine.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I think you have to define what consist of application. Some schools teach what the technique is used for but never shows how to actually apply it. Other schools teach how to actually apply it.

This can be an issue.

IMO, understand the application, but have not gone through the partner drills over 5,000 times is not the proper way to learn.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Gotta make sure there is a functional engine under the hood and that those application drills work with that particular engine.

You can develop that functional engine through partner drills. In Chinese wrestle, you don't train solo form first. You go directly into partner drills.

I believe the throwing art method can also be applied to the striking art.

The solo form is used to "polish" an existing technique. You have to develop skill first before you can polish it.

Skill developing -> skill polishing.

1: Skill developing:

2: Skill polishing:

 

[Flying Crane]

You can develop that functional engine through partner drills. In Chinese wrestle, you don't train solo form first. You go directly into partner drills.

I believe the throwing art method can also be applied to the striking art.

The solo form is used to "polish" an existing technique. You have to develop skill first before you can polish it.

Skill developing -> skill polishing.

1: Skill developing:

2: Skill polishing:

You misunderstand to what I am referring.

When I say “engine under the hood” I mean an understanding of good body mechanics and body connection, and a methodology for developing that skill, so that you are able to deliver a powerful and effective technique. That is what I have seen missing from some of these systems.

They spend too much time experimenting with WHAT to do in reaction to an attack (step here to evade, block here, punch him here and here, kick his knee, etc) and very little time on HOW to deliver the techniques powerfully. Punches end up being all arm and shoulder, muscling through, missing the greater power of good body mechanics and body connection.

They pay lip service to it, and do it a bit, but it isn’t really developed; it is like an afterthought with the thought that it will sort of develop on its own. But it never does.

This is compounded because without that engine, people come up with really questionable ideas about how to respond to an attack. It looks good on paper but is often overly complicated and makes unrealistic assumptions about how things will unfold. If there was a better engine under the hood, then SOME of that material might be salvageable, but more importantly they would realize that they need better and simpler and more straight forward ideas. They get too heavy on theory, it is disconnected from reality. Those complicated defensive solutions often put them into odd and awkward positions from which good power cannot be generated. But since they don’t understand how to generate good power, they don’t realize how they have put themselves into a vulnerable position. These defensive ideas are highly choreographed.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

HOW to deliver the techniques powerfully.

Now we are talking about the key issue here.

Many Taiji guys love to talk about power generation. But they don't even want to talk about fighting. My question is, "Why should you care about power generation if you don't care about fighting?" If you just want to train MA for health, whether you can generate power or not will have nothing to do with your health improvement.

Should you try to develop fighting skill first, you then try to "enhance" your power generation? What's the usage that one may generate the maximum power, but he has no fighting skill to deliver it?

I have seen so many MA people who has perfect foundation (good speed, good power, good flexibility). But they don't have fighting skill.

I believe one should develop fighting skill first, and enhance foundation later. A bad punch that can land is better than a good punch that hits into the thin air.