The perils of cross training

RTKDCMB

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Some martial artists feel the need to cross train for various reasons, usually it’s because they want to be as well rounded as they can in order to compensate for the incompleteness of some of the arts. Some arts only focus mainly on grappling (BJJ, Judo etc.) whilst some arts only focus on striking (Kickboxing, Muay Thai etc.) Some arts focus only on hands (e.g. boxing) whilst some arts are predominately kicking (e.g. Olympic TKD). So these martial artists mix and match from these styles in order to develop a complete range of skills. This is more prevalent in the competitive martial arts, especially in the UFC. When doing this fighters will work on a specific set of skills, one at a time, in different parts of their training regimen and then put them all together when they compete.

Other martial artists will study more than one art at a time whilst others will learn one art for a while and then change to something else with the aim to get as many black belts as they can. When studying 2 arts that have similar techniques it is even more difficult as you would have to keep changing the way you do them after each time you change between classes. Each of these approaches carries with them their own set of limitations. The classical approach is to choose one martial art and stick with that for life. The main problem in doing this is it can often be difficult to find a complete martial art. No martial art can be absolutely complete, if they were then there would be no need to evolve the art or improve the techniques.

The problem with mixing and matching different styles instead of concentrating on just one art is that it is much more difficult to develop a reliable set of skills; you just get an average of many skills (jack of all trades, master of none). Just consider this; if you required brain surgery would you rather have the surgeon operating on you to have 20 years of experience consisting of 5 years as a heart surgeon, 5 years as an optometrist, 5 years as an orthopedic surgeon and 5 years as a brain surgeon or would you rather the surgeon have 20 years of experience only as a brain surgeon.

The problem with changing martial arts every time you get a black belt to gain black belts in as many styles as possible is that you will only get to learn the basics of any martial art. It would be like only reading the first chapter of every book, sure you will get a lot of reading done but you will never get the full story. The true essence of a martial art only begins after you get to black belt. This is where you get to start to perfect your technique and learn the advanced concepts. This does not show much loyalty to the martial art, the instructors or the masters in that school. It is also a selfish attitude, when you earn your black belt you do not do it on your own. A lot of time, effort and patience on the part of your instructors go into teaching you the art in the hope that you can learn and stay with the school and make the art stronger. If you decide that the art is not for you at some point and leave then that is one thing but to have the secret intention right from the start to leave after black belt then that can be like a slap in the face to your instructor. That would be like getting a job for the sole purpose of learning the equipment and procedures and leaving as soon as you are finished and working for the competition.

It is perfectly fine to mix and match martial arts if that is what you want to do, it does not mean that you will not be effective or successful in the martial arts. MMA fighters do this very well but it is not the only way to become well rounded. By choosing the right martial art for you that is as complete as possible you can learn the most advanced concepts and adopt the art as a way of life. When making a lifelong commitment to a martial art there is nothing wrong with learning specific techniques from other martial arts that you see and getting different perspectives. For beginners this must be in consultation with your instructor. If your instructor tells you that the technique is inadequate then the technique must be discarded. If your instructor tells you that the technique is useful then the technique can then be incorporated into the art. You must do this because your instructor will have more knowledge and experience than you. If you were previously from another martial art and know more about martial arts than your instructor then he or she will still know more about their art than you. For black belts and instructors who have a lot of experience then you can usually judge for yourself the value of any technique you can use.

I was fortunate to have picked a martial art that that is a complete art headed by one of the 12 original masters of Tae Kwon Do who personally conducts every black belt grading and I see every 3 months. There are also his brothers, one a 9th dan grandmaster and the other is a 7th dan who is also one of the 12 original masters. I feel no need to cross train because my art includes hands and feet (~40-60% hands), ground defence, joint locks and defence against multiple attackers and weapons and trains to defend against other martial arts and not just itself. But that is not to say that I do not learn techniques from other martial arts that I see here and there. Personally I still use many of the techniques I learned in Hap Ki Do, such as the break falls and joint locks and at least one kick. I once saw a Karate demonstration and saw a defence against a headlock that I have incorporated into my repertoire as well as a defence against a hip throw that I saw in a Judo video.

So if cross training is your thing and it works well for you then go for it but also be aware of its limitations. If you choose to concentrate on only one martial art for a lifelong commitment then do not be afraid to seek a wider perspective.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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*Sigh* another mixed vs. non-mixed MA thread...I will say this much...you've provided no proof of what you're lecturing here, not all cross-trainers do it for competition or to 'collect belts' and whatever style you are in, I honestly don't believe it is a 'complete style', especially since you said yourself you've incorporated tihngs from other styles. If it was complete, why would you need anything else?
 

Blindside

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My personal experience is that is that you can beat specialists by taking them out of their field and putting them into unfamiliar ranges. I don't play with Olympic TKD guys at kicking range, that would be stupid, close to clinch, takedown, ground and pound.

It should also be noted that most historical martial arts, used by warriors and soldiers who actually used these things we study on battlefields, had a full complement of training, unarmed grappling, unarmed striking, armed grappling, armed striking, armed vs unarmed and unarmed vs armed training, I am sure they would appreciate the warning about the limitations of their approach.
 
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RTKDCMB

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*Sigh* another mixed vs. non-mixed MA thread...I will say this much...you've provided no proof of what you're lecturing here, not all cross-trainers do it for competition or to 'collect belts' and whatever style you are in, I honestly don't believe it is a 'complete style', especially since you said yourself you've incorporated tihngs from other styles. If it was complete, why would you need anything else?

Just because something is complete it doesn't mean you can't add to it, if it did then martial arts would remain unchanged and never grow. I incorporated some individual techniques not an entire training philosophy. I can get along just fine without using any of these things I have incorporated from other martial arts.
 

Cyriacus

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It depends on why youre training. There is no problem or peril of cross training, otherwise there wouldnt be people who have success with it. Not all brain surgeons start out medical school aspiring to be brain surgeons. They specialise later on, despite needing to maintain a skillset in other areas of medicine to get there, and possibly after that point as well.

I suppose it doesnt help that i dont hold martial arts in as high a regard as some people do. Sure, there may be downsides in terms of martial arts training in changing every time you get a black belt. But the person stands only to gain - Their proficiency in the system they left is what suffers. If your focus is on proficiency in a particular system, then cross training becomes poison. If not, then it can only benefit you if its something youre interested in.

Tell me though - Did you form this opinion on your own, or did you build on it from what others have told you? Most people who discredit cross training do it based on the opinions of people passing on opinions. In fact, ive never actually seen an example of someone coming to that conclusion all on their own without ever being told by someone else at some point. It would be a first.
 

K-man

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Within Goju, Chojun Miyagi's successor, Eiichi Miyazato was also 8th dan in Judo. One of his top students, Masaji Taira, is 4th dan Judo. One of my good friends is not only highly ranked in Goju but Nidan in aikido and black belt in BJJ ( no mean feat). He is also qualified as an instructor in Krav and Systema. Another Goju friend has extensively studied Tai Chi. These are very highly ranked practitioners and they have all incorporated the principles they learned into their primary art.

I have trained Aikido for the past six years and this has given me great insight into my karate and there are a number of my karate friends also training aikido and/or BJJ.

To suggest than any style of martial art is 'complete' reminds me the old story ...
Have you heard the story of the Buddhist scholar who went to visit an old and respected monk to discuss Buddhism? The monk invited the scholar in and they sat down. While the monk prepared tea the scholar immediately began to expound upon all he had learned about Buddhism at the university. On and on he went while the old monk quietly listened and prepared the tea.
When the tea was ready, the scholar continued to speak even as the old monk poured the tea. Suddenly, the scholar stopped and jumped up as he realized that tea was pouring down onto his leg. The old monk had filled the scholar’s cup and was continuing to pour tea into his already full cup.
The scholar shouted, “You old fool. What are you thinking?”
The old monk calmly replied, “A cup that is already full has no room to receive.”
You are indeed fortunate if your training in one system covers all aspects of the martial arts. :asian:
 

Tez3

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If you're happy with your style fine, if you want to cross train fine. I don't see the need to disparage those who decide they want to train outside their style. Each to their own, along as they aren't harming anyone else what's the point in saying they are wrong?
 

Uncle

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There is an issue with cross training. It's when people who are beginners or have no real foundation come and say they want to train boxing, and krav Maga, and bjj, and muay Thai, and jujitsu. It's too much. It's information overload on similar wavelengths. Now a beginner can much more easily pick up two dissimilar arts like BJJ and Muay Thai but it's still genially better to have a basis in one system so your coordination is better and your learning goes faster.

Besides that exception training outside of your system can do nothing but improve your skillset.

When I was training aikido 6 days a week I took two years off to go train at a bjj/mma gym. Within six months I was holding fairly even with a lot of the brown belts. The instructor wanted me to grade but I was there for training my skillset and it was an amazingly beneficial experience.

There's no complete system and there's always another art that specializes at something different. Get off your high horse and go do some learning.
 

Tony Dismukes

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I have no problem with anyone who chooses to study the same martial art their whole life or with anyone who studies different martial arts sequentially or concurrently. There are advantages and disadvantages to all these approaches.

I do have a problem with the following (not uncommon) attitude:

This does not show much loyalty to the martial art, the instructors or the masters in that school. It is also a selfish attitude, when you earn your black belt you do not do it on your own. A lot of time, effort and patience on the part of your instructors go into teaching you the art in the hope that you can learn and stay with the school and make the art stronger. If you decide that the art is not for you at some point and leave then that is one thing but to have the secret intention right from the start to leave after black belt then that can be like a slap in the face to your instructor. That would be like getting a job for the sole purpose of learning the equipment and procedures and leaving as soon as you are finished and working for the competition.

A martial art is a tool created to serve the needs of human beings. Human beings were not created to serve the "needs" of a martial art.

If you spend time learning how to use a hammer well, is it a slap in the face to your carpentry instructor when you pick up a crescent wrench?
If you spend time learning how to rock out on an electric guitar, is it selfish when you go next door to learn how to play a tender ballad on the celtic harp?
After getting a degree in graphic arts, is it a betrayal of your teachers if you go take some business classes in an attempt to become financially sucessful with your skills?

If your martial arts instructor does a good job of teaching you, then you owe them gratitude and respect. You do not have an obligation to stay on their "team" and keep training with them for the rest of your life. Suppose you had a spectacularly good math teacher in high school or a really great chemistry professor in college. Do you suppose those teachers would want you to spend the rest of your life studying just that one subject with just them? Of course not! What makes them happy and proud is when you take what they've given you and use it to go on and be successful in new things.

I also don't think much of the idea that different martial arts are "the competition." My primary art has been BJJ for the last 8 years or so, but I don't think of Wing Chun or TKD practitioners as being on some opposed team. If a Kempo practitioner came to me for 6 months just to learn the basics of how to defend himself on the ground so that he could get back to his feet and apply his main art, I wouldn't regard it as stealing secrets or take it as an insult that he didn't want to spend years mastering BJJ. I'd just be happy that I was able to offer him something useful.

Personally, I think that instructors who make a big deal out of "loyalty" in the sense of the above quote are more concerned about the needs of their own egos than the needs of their students.
 

oftheherd1

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Within Goju, Chojun Miyagi's successor, Eiichi Miyazato was also 8th dan in Judo. One of his top students, Masaji Taira, is 4th dan Judo. One of my good friends is not only highly ranked in Goju but Nidan in aikido and black belt in BJJ ( no mean feat). He is also qualified as an instructor in Krav and Systema. Another Goju friend has extensively studied Tai Chi. These are very highly ranked practitioners and they have all incorporated the principles they learned into their primary art.

I have trained Aikido for the past six years and this has given me great insight into my karate and there are a number of my karate friends also training aikido and/or BJJ.

To suggest than any style of martial art is 'complete' reminds me the old story ...
You are indeed fortunate if your training in one system covers all aspects of the martial arts. :asian:

My Grand Master was 8th dan in Hapkido, his primary art. He was also 5th dan in TKD, and 1st dan in Kumdo. The only reason he wasn't 1st dan in Judo was because just before the was to test, he broke his shoulder.

In Korea. when a person reaches 3rd dan in their art, yhey are often encouraged to obtain at least a 1st dan in another art. Both for their own edification, and to ensure their primary art is the one they really wish to continue in.

Also, FWIW, I also don't agree that any one MA has all the techniques/answers. And I suspect whether or not it would be harmful to a student, would have to be evaluated on a student by student basis.
 
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RTKDCMB

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If you're happy with your style fine, if you want to cross train fine. I don't see the need to disparage those who decide they want to train outside their style. Each to their own, along as they aren't harming anyone else what's the point in saying they are wrong?

To be clear I am not disparaging anyone nor saying that anyone is right or wrong. I attempted to present a balanced argument.
 

Uncle

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Actually if you read what you wrote you'll find you mistakenly bashed cross training and then tooted your own horn about how awesome your style was.
 

Dirty Dog

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To be clear I am not disparaging anyone nor saying that anyone is right or wrong. I attempted to present a balanced argument.

Then you failed, miserably. Nothing "balanced" about your post. It comes across as pretty much pure bashing of those who choose to study more than one art, with a little bit of patting yourself on the back thrown in.
 

Tez3

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Then you failed, miserably. Nothing "balanced" about your post. It comes across as pretty much pure bashing of those who choose to study more than one art, with a little bit of patting yourself on the back thrown in.

T'is true.
 
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RTKDCMB

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If you spend time learning how to use a hammer well, is it a slap in the face to your carpentry instructor when you pick up a crescent wrench?
If you spend time learning how to rock out on an electric guitar, is it selfish when you go next door to learn how to play a tender ballad on the celtic harp?
After getting a degree in graphic arts, is it a betrayal of your teachers if you go take some business classes in an attempt to become financially sucessful with your skills?
I think that instructors who make a big deal out of "loyalty" in the sense of the above quote are more concerned about the needs of their own egos than the needs of their students.

After getting married is it a betrayal of your wife if you go out and have sex with another woman?

For some instructors perhaps. For some people its all about them, they just want to get what they can get out of it and never even think of sticking around and helping anyone else.

I just discovered the multi quote.
 

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