The Origin of "Fancy" Kicks

[Makalakumu]

Gemini

I don't want anyone to think that this thread has any malicious intent. I'm not trying to bash anyone's art. I'm just questioning some of my own training and I'm contemplating dropping many of the fancy kicks in the curriculum at my dojang.

Also, I recently injured my back attempting one of these kicks. If I seem a little cranky, that is part of the cause.

upnorthkyosa

 

[Gemini]

Gemini
I don't want anyone to think that this thread has any malicious intent. I'm not trying to bash anyone's art. I'm just questioning some of my own training and I'm contemplating dropping many of the fancy kicks in the curriculum at my dojang.

Also, I recently injured my back attempting one of these kicks. If I seem a little cranky, that is part of the cause.

upnorthkyosa

At no time did I think you had any malicious intent. You've always seemed to be of the highest character to me. But it did seem from your initial post to your last that there was definately something bothering you and some under lying reason for the discussion. Your last post would explain alot. Because writing does not always convey ones mood, I apologize if I seemed in any way short in my last post. That was most certainly not my intent. I hope you find the answers you're looking for.

Regards,

 

[Shu2jack]

I don't know about any of the other TKDists here, but my side (and other "regular") kicks got a lot better from practicing them while jumping and/or spinning.

Adding jumping and spinning to a kick;

1) Helps improving physical conditioning.
2) Helps improve accuracy. If you can hit with a jump reverse side kick, you can hit with a "regular" one.
3) Helps put variety into your training. I know about 9 or 10 variations to the side kick. Each variation required an increasingly greater understanding and skill level with the basic technique. Thus as I made the kick fancier, the basic kick became better and easier.

I said this in another thread, but not everything a MA or Boxer or Kickboxer does applies directly into fighting. A boxer does jog in a ring and a Muay Thai fighter does imitate a bench press motion in the ring. But they still jog and bench press because those things improve the techniques they will use. Same with the "fancy kicks". They are fun, but in the end they have helped me improve what I will use.

Another angle to consider is that a lot of martial arts are a "way of life". Some of what we do will not have practical applications in combat, but serve a purpose for other goals that practioners want met.

 

[Makalakumu]

I don't know about any of the other TKDists here, but my side (and other "regular") kicks got a lot better from practicing them while jumping and/or spinning.

I believe that if one practices combos with more basic kicks and drills them all of the time, their kicks will become very good. I wish there was a way to put this to the test and see which method produces better results.

Another angle to consider is that a lot of martial arts are a "way of life". Some of what we do will not have practical applications in combat, but serve a purpose for other goals that practioners want met.

I understand this. However, I believe that time spent training should produce the best results in skill. I, personally, would like my training and teaching to focus on the practical aspects of kicking. I believe that my students will become better fighters because of this.

The bottom line is this...I have sprained my ankles, twisted my knees and wrenched my back doing these kicks in the course of my training. I'm beginning to question the value of the time spent practicing these techniques because I feel that the practical returns just aren't there. This is just my opinion, FWIW.

Maybe some higher ranked, more experienced, MT members could give me some insight regarding this...

 

[Shu2jack]

I believe that if one practices combos with more basic kicks and drills them all of the time, their kicks will become very good. I wish there was a way to put this to the test and see which method produces better results.

I agree, but jumping and spinning adds more variety into your training. I think doing both methods would yield positive results.

I understand this. However, I believe that time spent training should produce the best results in skill. I, personally, would like my training and teaching to focus on the practical aspects of kicking. I believe that my students will become better fighters because of this.

Not all students are training to fight.

I do believe that jumping and spinning can help perfect the practical aspects of kicking. In order to do a jump front or side kick you have to very quickly chamber, execute, and rechamber the kick in mid air. If you don't you fall on your butt or the kick stinks. I believe jump kicks help my chamber for my regular kicks as well as strengthen my legs. It also helps teach students to generate power from speed and snap as you are in no stance in mid-air.

Just like how "traditional" arts seperate fighting and practice cultivating different aspects of it (forms=technique, board breaking= power, one-steps=distance/timing, sparring=realism/reaction/mental preparation), I believe jump and spin kicks take different aspects of a "basic" kick and work on improving the foundation.

The bottom line is this...I have sprained my ankles, twisted my knees and wrenched my back doing these kicks in the course of my training. I'm beginning to question the value of the time spent practicing these techniques because I feel that the practical returns just aren't there. This is just my opinion, FWIW.

I feel the practical returns are there. I also know a friend who severly damaged her knee because she wasn't able to pivote correctly on the floor for a back leg round kick. A "basic" kick. I believe anything done incorrectly will result in injury. Are jump and spin kicks more dangerous? If you ask your body to do more than what it is capable of or if you do something incorrectly, then yes. The same will ALL techniques.

 

[searcher]

I wouldn't use some of these techniques in a tournament. I'd get my butt kicked. In fact, in most tournaments I've been too, the only people who use some of the fancy kicks are the inexperienced and the desperate. In all cases, they lost.

I have used them with very good results in sport tourneys. I have even used them a few time in knockdown. It is all in your training. It is also very good at making the more "basic" version of the technique easier. It kind of helps students "dumb-down" their technique on the basics.

 

[Makalakumu]

I have used them with very good results in sport tourneys. I have even used them a few time in knockdown. It is all in your training. It is also very good at making the more "basic" version of the technique easier. It kind of helps students "dumb-down" their technique on the basics.

Which techniques have been successful? I'm curious as to the degree of "fanciness" in the technique.

 

[tsdclaflin]

Try a jump spinning hook on Chuck Liddel. What would be the outcome?

I wonder if Chuck Norris could have done it 20 years ago?

 

[searcher]

Which techniques have been successful? I'm curious as to the degree of "fanciness" in the technique.

A 540 is the "fanciest" that I have used successfully. I have also used Au Batido from the Capoiera style. I guess maybe my idea of fancy and others may be different. I regularly use jump spinning back and jump spinning hook to score. Not very fancy, but effective.

I have seen others use things like vaulting axe to score. Pretty fancy, but I do not want to try it myself.

Working on more complex techniques makes the more basic version easier. That is why I train them in the first place, but have used them also.

 

[DuneViking]

I have no idea about the origins of the "fancy" kicks, so I won't pretend I do by speculating- I simply have no idea based on facts. I do see a practicle application of adding spins and jumps to basic kicks to 1) extend reach, 2) add power, 3) add speed. These may be accomplished by refining the techniques and using them in a practicle way, depending on the circumstances of the individual engagement. Using a jump spin cresent kick to disarm a gun toting assailant would probably get one shot. Using a jump side kick to finish a stunned opponent may be practicle.

 

[Hapkid0ist]

Well I'm not sure about the origin of the Higher fancy kicks, but I'll tell you why in my opinion why they are taught today.

THEY ARE COOL TO SEE AND DO! We teach and do them for 2 primary reasons. The first being, They are what people want to see at demos. People like them and want to be able to do something thats seems to be more than normal, almost super human to people. It makes people feel special.
Second they do help to work the muscles of the leg. They help to strengthen them and help with better flexability for better power, speed and less chance of injury.

It is that simple.

 

[InvisibleFist]

Thanks, DW

I was wondering how long it would take before somebody made that point!

 

[Raewyn]

I was watching the Discovery Channel and they had a series of different styles of Martial Arts, and i did manage to see the art of Tae Kwon Do, and they did mention the fact of why all those fancy kicks. According to the discovery channel the reason why they did those kicks was because of the high degree of difficulty. And if they could acheive them the more difficult they became! It didnt really seem like they were doing them for a practical purpose it was just really to see if they could do them or not.

 

[Flying Crane]

They came from the arts of savate and kapwara. These kicks are absent from traditional katas and kuens and show up in NO far eastern combat manuals.

Did you mean to say Capoeira? it is true, Capoeira has some very unusual kicks, and in recent years I have noticed some other arts adopting them. I have also seen some of the Chinese arts have kicks that, while not exactly the same, are somewhat similar. If one art is doing it, chances are another has come up with it as well, and not necessarily borrowed one from the other.

 

[Flying Crane]

maybe in general, they were developed as a means to push the athletic envelope. Maybe not necessarily useful in a martial sense, but can make one stronger, more limber, faster, etc., and those can be useful traits in a general sense.

 

[MountainSage]

I have been lurking on this thread for some time and feel it is now time to comment. Any technique beyond just enough to get the job done is about ego. Fancy kicking and other techniques that are not part of basic techniques is pure and simple ego building.

Mike Wood
Mountainsage

 

[FearlessFreep]

As a musician, one thing you learn to do is to play beyond your ability, to stretch yourself beyond what you would normally play, because it stretches you mentally and physically and helps make what you do play that much easier and stronger. I rarely if every play scales as fast as I physically can, at least not when playing live in a group. But years of practicing scales at high speeds has made me able to play them at slowers speed much more comfortably. Music is full of such exercises, things you do that make no sense from a musical sense that stretch you, mentally and physically, to go 'beyond yourself' that have the effect of make you much more confident and assured and graceful and musical at the playing you actually play to make music.

A perfect example is Miles Davis "Kind Of Blue", it's not a technical endeavor by any means; John Coltrane is one of the featured soloists and I've heard him do stuff much more physically demanding, but he could make his playing on "Kind Of Blue" so powerful because of the chops he has, even if the music is not a raw demonstration of those chops. A musician of lesser chops would not be able to play what he played, even if it was technically with that person's grasp.

In music, there are often three kinds of musicians:

Those who show disdain for chops, for technique, as being unimportant. Those are often the ones who don't want to put the time into practicing stuff that's hard to do, or just can't do it, so instead they put it, and people who do it, down as a way of protecting their own ego.

Those who practice long and hard at their chops and theyfall in love with their own raw technical ability to the point that it's all they really notice and it's the yardstick by which themeasure themselves and everyone else. They are often yound and musically immature and don't have the experience to now how to harness their talent into something that people actualy will enjoy listening to

Those who spend hours and years of hard practice to perfect ther chops, their technique, but who then use their talent as just a tool to make music that people enjoy.


So yeah, I set my metronome to 40bpm and practice just hitting whole notes, half notes, and triplets. It sounds really stupid but...it perfects my timing and my ability to play with positive and negative sound space and open space. I'll sit in my room and play scales a lot faster than I'll every need to, or even do totally atonal finger exercises at high speed, totally ugly sounding stuff that no one will ever want to hear. They strengthen my fingers, they loosen my hands, they increase my familiarity with my instrument, and occasionaly I stumble on something that actually sounds fun and could be musically useful.

I guess if I were to evver hear a musician saying "well I don't do scale exercises fast because I'll never need to play that fast" or "I don't practice with a metronome because we don't use a metronome on stage anyway" I'd be thinking to myself "well, you ain't goin' far, kid".

You always go beyond were you need to be so you can bring it back to where you need to be with confidence and precision and strength.

At least....that's the way music training works, and I've so far a lot of simularities between music training and martial arts training

 

[Flying Crane]

As a musician, one thing you learn to do is to play beyond your ability, to stretch yourself beyond what you would normally play, because it stretches you mentally and physically and helps make what you do play that much easier and stronger. I rarely if every play scales as fast as I physically can, at least not when playing live in a group. But years of practicing scales at high speeds has made me able to play them at slowers speed much more comfortably. Music is full of such exercises, things you do that make no sense from a musical sense that stretch you, mentally and physically, to go 'beyond yourself' that have the effect of make you much more confident and assured and graceful and musical at the playing you actually play to make music.

A perfect example is Miles Davis "Kind Of Blue", it's not a technical endeavor by any means; John Coltrane is one of the featured soloists and I've heard him do stuff much more physically demanding, but he could make his playing on "Kind Of Blue" so powerful because of the chops he has, even if the music is not a raw demonstration of those chops. A musician of lesser chops would not be able to play what he played, even if it was technically with that person's grasp.

In music, there are often three kinds of musicians:

Those who show disdain for chops, for technique, as being unimportant. Those are often the ones who don't want to put the time into practicing stuff that's hard to do, or just can't do it, so instead they put it, and people who do it, down as a way of protecting their own ego.

Those who practice long and hard at their chops and theyfall in love with their own raw technical ability to the point that it's all they really notice and it's the yardstick by which themeasure themselves and everyone else. They are often yound and musically immature and don't have the experience to now how to harness their talent into something that people actualy will enjoy listening to

Those who spend hours and years of hard practice to perfect ther chops, their technique, but who then use their talent as just a tool to make music that people enjoy.


So yeah, I set my metronome to 40bpm and practice just hitting whole notes, half notes, and triplets. It sounds really stupid but...it perfects my timing and my ability to play with positive and negative sound space and open space. I'll sit in my room and play scales a lot faster than I'll every need to, or even do totally atonal finger exercises at high speed, totally ugly sounding stuff that no one will ever want to hear. They strengthen my fingers, they loosen my hands, they increase my familiarity with my instrument, and occasionaly I stumble on something that actually sounds fun and could be musically useful.

I guess if I were to evver hear a musician saying "well I don't do scale exercises fast because I'll never need to play that fast" or "I don't practice with a metronome because we don't use a metronome on stage anyway" I'd be thinking to myself "well, you ain't goin' far, kid".

You always go beyond were you need to be so you can bring it back to where you need to be with confidence and precision and strength.

At least....that's the way music training works, and I've so far a lot of simularities between music training and martial arts training

Well said, Jay, very good analogy.

 

[Flying Crane]

I have been lurking on this thread for some time and feel it is now time to comment. Any technique beyond just enough to get the job done is about ego. Fancy kicking and other techniques that are not part of basic techniques is pure and simple ego building.

Mike Wood
Mountainsage

I disagree completely. Using the example of Capoeira, we use some crazy kicks and acrobatics that you would never use in a real fight, but this is part of what makes the art of Capoeira so unique. It can be very playful and fun, as well as an effective fighting art. You need to understand what aspects of the art are meant for what circumstances. You need to understand the context before making such a sweeping generalization.

 

[MountainSage]

If a person needs to believe there is similarities between two things to justifiy their belief in either then so be it. Fighting arts are Fighting arts and Musical art is Musical Arts. The two have diffrent mean to their ends. It is unfortunate that we spend to much time dance in the grey areas, when so much of the world function in balck and white. This is not a value judgement.

FLying Crane, read more closely, I stated that techinque that are not part of the systems basic technique is ego. Using the exception to prove you point is poor quality debating. Learning to play traditional African musical intruments is a basic skill for Capoeira, does that mean all other fighting arts are lacking. No, it is a basic skill required for this particular fighting art.

The true measure of a master of a particular art is not how well he does the extreme techniques, yet how he perfects the simplist technique.

Mike Wood
Mountainsage