The notion that you have to throw/submit yourself in Aikido or get your wrist broken

[Gerry Seymour]

For cryin out loud, there was a 3rd Dan Aikido black belt instructor with his own dojo who tried a joint twist in a BJJ contest while standing up and nothing happened, the dude just looked at him funny. It was hilarious to see. It did not cause anything

Okay, so a guy tried a technique and it didn't work. Apparently, either he chose the wrong technique, didn't get the set-up, or the other guy knew how to counter. What's your point?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If you devote a good portion of your life to something that turns out in the end to be bullcrap, you are unlikely to ever admit it, even to yourself.

This is exponentially more true if your paycheck depends on it.

True enough. That cognitive resistance is powerful. At the same time, some folks believe things don't work in spite of the evidence. Or they pretend to, anyway.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Oh common. Just admit you used it on hillbillies who believe the same nonsense you do.

Acyually he uses it on people who have no idea he reains anything, just fyi.

 

[Gweilo]

Oh common. Just admit you used it on hillbillies who believe the same nonsense you do.

They do work on more than just hillbillies, one demonstration, and one experience you base this knowledge upon, are you sure you wasn't too busy chatting, so you missed the point?
In my 30 something years of training, joint manipulation, structure breaking etc has been a very very useful tool, even in a real fight situation, compliant training partners has been explained in a very articulate post, if you don't like locks etc, don't use them, but you still haven't answered the question about your ma experience, you seem to think you know a lot about many arts, you don't like Aikido, or locks and structure breaking, so what do you beleive is an adequate alternative.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Okay, so a guy tried a technique and it didn't work. Apparently, either he chose the wrong technique, didn't get the set-up, or the other guy knew how to counter. What's your point?

The logic is that if 10 people can't do it, then it must be impossible. Instead of focusing on how it works people often tend to focus on how things don't work.

There are people who don't show up at demos and tournaments that rely on a joint lock to work. When we hear about the failure of a martial arts techniques it's always in the context of someone at a demo or exhibition. Find someone who relies on functional joint locks, we'll get a different image of joint locks and the applications of it.

 

[drop bear]

Yeah, this is where I take issue with how much of this is done in much of Aikido. I think it's a useful practice so you can practice the movement at full speed (I see it as analogous to a lightweight "heavy" bag for striking). But if it's used too much (especially if it's the ONLY drill approach used), you get a false sense of what will work. At the very least, a skilled partner should be able to say, "I took that fall just in case, but it didn't feel like you really had the lock." Not ideal, but at least better than never getting any feedback. I favor beginners taking the escape a bit early, and more advanced folks waiting to feel out the technique's effect first.

The thing is you do kind of have to have a backup if your slick move fails anyway. So it is not the end of the world if your slower than 100% wrist lock doesn't take.

And if you have everything else on point. E.g. the Russian wrist snap. You don't need the lock.

And you do kind of need these elements to be on point because if you don't they will just clench their fist and you won't get that wristlock.

Which is what OP was basically describing.

 

[drop bear]

The logic is that if 10 people can't do it, then it must be impossible. Instead of focusing on how it works people often tend to focus on how things don't work.

There are people who don't show up at demos and tournaments that rely on a joint lock to work. When we hear about the failure of a martial arts techniques it's always in the context of someone at a demo or exhibition. Find someone who relies on functional joint locks, we'll get a different image of joint locks and the applications of it.

You would want moves to work consistently and be verifiable. Especially in martial arts where you really should assume people are lying to you.

Because unfortunately enough people are that it is just the general state of play.

Sorry Annie but you are being lied to.

 

[Gweilo]

Been going through some Hapkido vids, this is not the one I was looking for, but it does talk about a situation when you come across a strong person and wrist locks, I will keep looking for the one I was hoping to find, and will post it when I find, it may shed a bit of light to the op.

 

[drop bear]

You would want moves to work consistently and be verifiable. Especially in martial arts where you really should assume people are lying to you.

Because unfortunately enough people are that it is just the general state of play.

Sorry Annie but you are being lied to.

By the way of course using flying cranes imaginary cat fallacy the were of course super awesome and realistic up to that point. We just didn't see that on YouTube.

 

[drop bear]

Been going through some Hapkido vids, this is not the one I was looking for, but it does talk about a situation when you come across a strong person and wrist locks, I will keep looking for the one I was hoping to find, and will post it when I find, it may shed a bit of light to the op.

When you have your arm bent but your student has a straight arm and amazing the technique works.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Oh common. Just admit you used it on hillbillies who believe the same nonsense you do.

Do you think this move can work most of the time if not all the time?

The logic is simple. You use the strong part of your body (arm) to deal with the weak part of your opponent's body (1 finger).

 

[Alan Smithee]

Do you think this move can work most of the time if not all the time?

The logic is simple. You use the strong part of your body (arm) to deal with the weak part of your opponent's body (1 finger).

If your opponent just stands there like a zoombie looking at you, yes.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You would want moves to work consistently and be verifiable. Especially in martial arts where you really should assume people are lying to you.

Because unfortunately enough people are that it is just the general state of play.

Sorry Annie but you are being lied to.

I've seen all of her videos and I'm just amazed at what she gets away with and how people buy into that stuff. I can only assume that people who take her classes have never been in a real fight either as a kid or an adult.

I'm not sure in what scenario I would find myself pinned against the wall facing the wall, unless I'm getting arrested. I run attack scenarios and I've yet been able to pin any of the students against the wall like that. Seems like something more out of the movies. Maybe someone can shed some light on that.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If your opponent just stands there like a zoombie looking at you, yes.

Actually it's the other way around. You stand there like a zombie. When your opponent pushes on your chest, he will give that opportunity to you.

Opportunity can only be given to those who has prepared.

 

[Martial D]

The logic is that if 10 people can't do it, then it must be impossible. Instead of focusing on how it works people often tend to focus on how things don't work.

Not so. At least not in my case.

In my case it's more like this.

I have trained with 2 shodan level Aikidoka, and neither one of them could pull off any standing locks on anyone, not even the new guys.

There is hundreds of hours of sparring footage, in which it doesn't work.

There are thousands and thousands of recorded MMA and grappling matches in which such things never take place.

And in fact, there doesn't seem to be any evidence of this sort of thing working in the wild whatsoever.

That is more than enough to convict in any court of law.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I have trained with 2 shodan level Aikidoka, and neither one of them could pull off any standing locks on anyone, not even the new guys.

Not even a finger lock as shown in this clip?

From a hand shake position, this wrist lock should work quite easily. The moment that you start to shake your opponent's hand, it's difficult for him to pull that hand back.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

When your technique doesn't work on your opponent, should you blame on your technique, or should you blame on yourself?

To make any technique work, you will need to satisfy the following:

1. opportunity
2. timing
3. angle
4. force
5. balance

For example,

- If the opportunity is not there, nothing will happen.
- Even if the opportunity is there, if you don't have good timing, that opportunity will just pass away.
- Same as wrong angle, weak force, and poor balance.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Actually it's the other way around. You stand there like a zombie. When your opponent pushes on your chest, he will give that opportunity to you.

Typically any situation where the attacker put his or her hands on you for pushing, holding back, etc. is an opportunity to grab fingers. Probably a one hand choke against the wall or a one hand choke to set up a choke slam. Then there's the general shoving that may happen in a conflict.

Then you have these - Shirt grabs

 

[Martial D]

When your technique doesn't work on your opponent, should you blame on your technique, or should you blame on yourself?

To make any technique work, you will need to satisfy the following:

1. opportunity
2. timing
3. angle
4. force
5. balance

For example,

- If the opportunity is not there, nothing will happen.
- Even if the opportunity is there, if you don't have good timing, your technique still will not work.
- Same as wrong angle, weak force, and poor balance.

Just because some dude in a GI invents something that looks cool on a guy that plays along, then names it, doesn't magically mAke it effective 'if only it were done right'

A lot of TMA stuff is straight fantasy roleplaying.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Not so. At least not in my case.

In my case it's more like this.

I have trained with 2 shodan level Aikidoka, and neither one of them could pull off any standing locks on anyone, not even the new guys.

There is hundreds of hours of sparring footage, in which it doesn't work.

There are thousands and thousands of recorded MMA and grappling matches in which such things never take place.

And in fact, there doesn't seem to be any evidence of this sort of thing working in the wild whatsoever.

That is more than enough to convict in any court of law.

The only thing I can say is that maybe someone who knows how to apply it will post video on Youtube. My perspective comes from my own experience of what I see vs what may be out there. How many people have we seen spar and actually use Jow Ga techniques? So when it comes to Aikido, I'm thinking the same thing. There may be others out there who just haven't posted a video of them sparring.

I like this one. But unfortunately I don't know enough about Aikido to know if that's what he was doing.

if he's actually using it Aikido (in the video above, then that video gives a much different perspective than the video below.

The only thing I'm sure about is that Joint locks works, and how it's applied is going to determine reliability. I don't think it's a bunch of made up Joint locks and arm twists. I also believe that it's going to be rare to find someone passionate enough to actually learn how to be functional with the system. Most people rather mix and match systems, which is nothing wrong with doing that. It's just that doing so, may cause a person to give up on the applications of the system instead of trying to figure it out.