The layered bunkai theory is stupid

[isshinryuronin]

At 0.02 - 0.04, you can see a right punch turns into a grab/pull followed by a left punch. The right hand pulls back into a high guard and then turn into an elbow strike.

What style is this clip? I liked the speed and crispness of moves not usually seen in most other kung fu styles.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

What style is this clip? I liked the speed and crispness of moves not usually seen in most other kung fu styles.

7 star praying mantis. IMO, it's the best bridge between the striking art and the wrestling art. It has more grab/pull than most of the MA systems that I know.

 

[Fungus]

Which fist did you use?

I've tried both horizontal and vertical. We have both fists in our Kihon act. But in kyokushin even horizontal fist is 2-knuckles (as per standard). In real fighting we use both but I only use vertical for punches to stomach, or in a lot of cases it's of course a hybrid angles.

When doing straight power punches, even if turning over the fist I feel better with horizontal. In a way it takes a little bit more focus to use the two seikens, than the three smaller. But if I want to punch as hard I as can, I feel better alginment if use the two seiken knuckles.

But I guess it alos depends on what surface you hit and the distance. If you hit a plane hard surface above chest level I would always turn over my horizontal fist in order to not hae my fingers rather than knuckles take the hit.

for hooks each in the club to it differently, the kihon says horizontal, and its also what I personally perefer, but others in the club prefer vertical. The vertical propoonents told me they feel their wrist is safter that way, I feel the opposite, I also feel that a vertical fist risks hitting with fingers and damage wrist if the subject moves closer. With the horizontal fist, then I end if hitting with the single index knuckle and I do that on purpose alot of the times to the ribs, it feels strong and is like a single knuckle strike.

May the preferenec is also due to personal stability of the wrist, like which direction you feel more control.

Also when trying to break boards, it feels wrong to use the 3 smaller knuckles?

 

[Fungus]

Which fist did you use?

This is a good clip where they elaborate on this for the hook.

Shane mentions the hook with two or even just index knuckle I also like to the ribs. Of course this is not a strike that you would apply to a conctrete wall, but it's a favourite for me, but this is just for hooks to ribs and armpits or even behind the arm.

The also elaborate on turning over more for larget distance, almost morphing into a upside down backfist.

I feel the closer the range, the more natural would vertical fist become.

 

[Fungus]

Must respect to this guy. Working out his techniques.

He throws what looks like either a haito strike to the temple. I love this technique, we don't get to strike the head but I use this to just hit the opponents arm or shoulder (more symbolic to show that had it only been higher had it been a worse hit).

The same can be done with the one or two knuckles of a fist if turnning your hand over, right? I have tried both and love them.

 

[marvin8]

Hmm I get the logic of alignment part if you do vertical punches. The time I feel vertial punches are "natural" and I probably use an extra knuckle is close range vertical punches to solar plexus or lower. For plexus punches i tend to aim the middle knucke at the xipohoid process, and hit "from below and upwards" and then all the knuckles seem to help, but I am unlikely to break my pinky bones from striking there I suppose so it feels safe. So in that case I would tend to agree.

That turned over jab he does, I don't see why he couldn't hit that with the two stronger knuckles instead? Not sure i follow why in that strike the three smalller knuckles would be preferred? Am I missing something?

Because as the guy in your video says, "You want your wrist as stable and straight as possible with all those bones aligned in the best straight line." If you hit with the "stronger knuckles," you have to bend your wrist when turning over the jab to the face or chest.

Hunt demos the turning over the jab as a defensive move. As Hunt's student throws the jab, he turns his front foot and shifts his weight to the back foot while turning over the jab, which brings the front shoulder up protecting the chin. Hitting with the bottom three or the middle knuckle and the next lower knuckle (not pinky) helps keep the wrist more "stable and straight."

That extreme defense will set up your offense, turning over the jab to turning over the right cross. Turning punches over in training can be used to exaggerate and develop full power, as the Winklejohn video showed too. So when someone says “CMA has rotation or spirals and boxing does not,” they likely don’t know what they’re talking about. Karate tends not to move their head and not attack & defend simultaneously. So, your alignment may be different when turning over punches.

https://imgur.com/PeZ2J42

 

[Fungus]

Because as the guy in your video says, "You want your wrist as stable and straight as possible with all those bones aligned in the best straight line." If you hit with the "stronger knuckles," you have to bend your wrist when turning over the jab to the face or chest.

Ok now I get it, and it makes sense to me now. And I realiz one advantage of the 3 knuckle punch in this case is a longer reach by some inch or so.

As you need a different wrist alignment, it translates to a higher arm position, and thus a slightly closer distance I think. The way I would throw this punch wouldn't be a 100% straight punch, but having an overhand curve with a downward trajectory. Commonly collarbone strike in kyokushin, which is allowed.

That extreme defense will set up your offense, turning over the jab to turning over the right cross. Turning punches over in training can be used to exaggerate and develop full power, as the Winklejohn video showed too. So when someone says “CMA has rotation or spirals and boxing does not,” they likely don’t know what they’re talking about. Karate tends not to move their head and not attack & defend simultaneously. So, your alignment may be different when turning over punches.

https://imgur.com/PeZ2J42

I agree that many of these punches have a curve, they are not 100% straight. Some of the the kihon punches are straight, but then there is no target, they seems to always be deformed from perfection in a real fight.

For power I tend to want to move my head as well but our instructors suggest try to keeping it back in order to avoid getting countered by a knee to the head. Boxers doesn't worry about that.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If a MA system uses the

- machine gun strategy, the pulling won't go back to the waist for speed.
- rifle, or grenade strategy, the pulling may go back to the waist for power.

There is no right or wrong but tradeoff.

 

[marvin8]

This is a good clip where they elaborate on this for the hook.

Shane mentions the hook with two or even just index knuckle I also like to the ribs. Of course this is not a strike that you would apply to a conctrete wall, but it's a favourite for me, but this is just for hooks to ribs and armpits or even behind the arm.

Hackleman says trying to hit with the index knuckle can damage the knuckles more. He feels the vertical hook is safer because the force is evenly spread among the whole fist.

In Donaire vs Montiel, Donaire throws a vertical left hook with lower knuckles.

https://imgur.com/7RXzKMc

 

[JowGaWolf]

I've tried both horizontal and vertical. We have both fists in our Kihon act. But in kyokushin even horizontal fist is 2-knuckles (as per standard). In real fighting we use both but I only use vertical for punches to stomach, or in a lot of cases it's of course a hybrid angles.

When doing straight power punches, even if turning over the fist I feel better with horizontal. In a way it takes a little bit more focus to use the two seikens, than the three smaller. But if I want to punch as hard I as can, I feel better alginment if use the two seiken knuckles.

But I guess it alos depends on what surface you hit and the distance. If you hit a plane hard surface above chest level I would always turn over my horizontal fist in order to not hae my fingers rather than knuckles take the hit.

for hooks each in the club to it differently, the kihon says horizontal, and its also what I personally perefer, but others in the club prefer vertical. The vertical propoonents told me they feel their wrist is safter that way, I feel the opposite, I also feel that a vertical fist risks hitting with fingers and damage wrist if the subject moves closer. With the horizontal fist, then I end if hitting with the single index knuckle and I do that on purpose alot of the times to the ribs, it feels strong and is like a single knuckle strike.

May the preferenec is also due to personal stability of the wrist, like which direction you feel more control.

Also when trying to break boards, it feels wrong to use the 3 smaller knuckles?

I hit with the middle knuckle on straight punch. It's a compromise for me. The punching concept is that I want to "stab my knuckle" into the target. This is fine for me most of the time since I don't normally do straight punches to the face. I've come to enjoy sending strikes outside of the field of vision. As for hooks there are benefits to both the horizontal and vertical fists.

The type of fist that is used depends on a few things

• Distance - the closer you are the more options you have to use either, but if you are far way then horizontal becomes the only option. If you hold your hook out in front of you and then extend your arm then you will see and feel when the horizontal fist is no longer an option. Distance can be adjusted with footwork
• Angle of the punch - some hooks will be use a diagonal fist depending on the angle

The biggest difference is probably the angle of the elbow.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The also elaborate on turning over more for larget distance, almost morphing into a upside down backfist

I'm not a fan of a punch like this it puts the elbow in a bad position and I think there may be some loss of power but I can't say for sure because I don't hook that way

Karate tends not to move their head and not attack & defend simultaneously. So, your alignment may be different when turning over punches.

Karate moves the head by moving the feet, but that is a trained response and not a habit. Sometimes you just have move your head. Just don't move the head as much as boxers do.

I'm sure karate defends and attack at the same time. I see it in their kata. I wouldn't bet my face on this. There are things that Karate teaches outside of kata. Kata is probably 40% of the total system.

Jow Ga forms teach a low back sweep. I use a variation of that in my high sweep. Jow Ga doesn't have a high sweep. It's those type of variations that will catch people off guard as far as what to expect. Block and attack at the same time is common in Asian martial arts.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Because as the guy in your video says, "You want your wrist as stable and straight as possible with all those bones aligned in the best straight line." If you hit with the "stronger knuckles," you have to bend your wrist when turning over the jab to the face or chest.

Hunt demos the turning over the jab as a defensive move. As Hunt's student throws the jab, he turns his front foot and shifts his weight to the back foot while turning over the jab, which brings the front shoulder up protecting the chin. Hitting with the bottom three or the middle knuckle and the next lower knuckle (not pinky) helps keep the wrist more "stable and straight."

That extreme defense will set up your offense, turning over the jab to turning over the right cross. Turning punches over in training can be used to exaggerate and develop full power, as the Winklejohn video showed too. So when someone says “CMA has rotation or spirals and boxing does not,” they likely don’t know what they’re talking about. Karate tends not to move their head and not attack & defend simultaneously. So, your alignment may be different when turning over punches.

https://imgur.com/PeZ2J42

Throw that long punch like CMA long fist then that punch to the shoulder will never land. That disruption only works on people who square off their shoulder.

 

[Fungus]

Hackleman says trying to hit with the index knuckle can damage the knuckles more. He feels the vertical hook is safer because the force is evenly spread among the whole fist.

Yes make sense, I wouldn't try to break a brick with one knuckle, or a skull with one knuckle.

As I understand there two kinds of punches,

1) one type where you just want to transfer as much energy as possible to make your target MOVE or SPIN with just sufficient force. This would be the typical blunt boxing punch I think. Say, a punching ball at amusement parts, the ball momentum does not care about your knuckles, only energy transfer. Here putting your body weight into the punch, is sometimes more important than fist speed.

2) An the kind of punch that either attempts to deliver maximum force with more precision, with just sufficient energy, to do local damage or deliver local pain or to break something. This seems more like the knuckle strike or karate punch.

When I practice this this one knuckle punch to ribs, arms and the more force on a single knucke, the more pain on the opponent. So far, I practice this and also on heavy bag and it feels pretty good, but the purpose is more maximum local force rather than maxium energy transfer. So hitting the skull this way, is perhaps not the best idea without gloves. But to the temple I imagine it would work and give effect without maximum energy.

 

[Fungus]

I'm not a fan of a punch like this it puts the elbow in a bad position and I think there may be some loss of power but I can't say for sure because I don't hook that way

I think it does loose power, but I think the power left is useful. In sparring I even got complaints from partners to reduce power when digging my knuckle into their arm with this method, so for me it works. Would you hit the back or side ribs it would really hurt. Surely I expose my own ribs when striking this way, so you hae to think about that. Blunt punches to your upper arm, you normaly ignore and just eat no matter how hard they strike, but with single knuckles is harder to ignore, but this is all soft tissue.

I'm sure karate defends and attack at the same time. I see it in their kata. I wouldn't bet my face on this. There are things that Karate teaches outside of kata.

Yes, in kyokushin karate we practiced in fighting application class 3 types of counters

1. Block/evade, then counter in two steps

2. Block and counter in one step (simultaneously).

3. Try to read the opponent and make a preemptive counter strike before their attack is completed so it's disabled, meaning before the opponents limb lands on you.

We are told #3 is preferred when possible, but also the most difficult as technique isn't enough, you have to read the opponent as well and avoid reading feints. In class we practice all three versions for both punches and kicks.

 

[marvin8]

This is a good clip where they elaborate on this for the hook.

Shane mentions the hook with two or even just index knuckle I also like to the ribs. Of course this is not a strike that you would apply to a conctrete wall, but it's a favourite for me, but this is just for hooks to ribs and armpits or even behind the arm.

The also elaborate on turning over more for larget distance, almost morphing into a upside down backfist.

I feel the closer the range, the more natural would vertical fist become.

I'm not a fan of a punch like this it puts the elbow in a bad position and I think there may be some loss of power but I can't say for sure because I don't hook that way

They can be for closer distance too like in your kyokushin video—raising the elbow and turning over the punch to get around the guard.

What Shane and the other guy don't mention is follow through. Donaire makes contact with the fist vertical and follows through (e.g, golf, basketball, baseball) by turning his punch over.

https://imgur.com/34qh6I1

 

[marvin8]

Hunt demos the turning over the jab as a defensive move. As Hunt's student throws the jab, he turns his front foot and shifts his weight to the back foot while turning over the jab, which brings the front shoulder up protecting the chin. Hitting with the bottom three or the middle knuckle and the next lower knuckle (not pinky) helps keep the wrist more "stable and straight."

That extreme defense will set up your offense, turning over the jab to turning over the right cross. Turning punches over in training can be used to exaggerate and develop full power, as the Winklejohn video showed too. So when someone says “CMA has rotation or spirals and boxing does not,” they likely don’t know what they’re talking about. Karate tends not to move their head and not attack & defend simultaneously. So, your alignment may be different when turning over punches.

https://imgur.com/PeZ2J42

Throw that long punch like CMA long fist then that punch to the shoulder will never land. That disruption only works on people who square off their shoulder.

If you step with your CMA long fist and he times and intercepts your step, then it should disrupt your movement. I was trying to explain that difference before—throwing the wheel punch before the front foot fully lands or after.

 

[JowGaWolf]

If you step with your CMA long fist and he times and intercepts your step, then it should disrupt your movement.

The way it's done in CMA is to step off center. When this is done there is no shoulder to strike in order to disrupt. CMA teaches not to move the head. So the only way that is acceptable in the teaching is to move the feet an the stance height.

I I think this strictness is to break the natural tendency to move the head more than it being something that is forbidden.

 

[JowGaWolf]

If you step with your CMA long fist and he times and intercepts your step, then it should disrupt your movement. I was trying to explain that difference before—throwing the wheel punch before the front foot fully lands or after.

I'm not sure in MMA but in Jow Ga we throw two. The fist strike hits the target as the lead foot land the second hits after the lead foot lands.

 

[marvin8]

The way it's done in CMA is to step off center. When this is done there is no shoulder to strike in order to disrupt. CMA teaches not to move the head. So the only way that is acceptable in the teaching is to move the feet an the stance height.

I I think this strictness is to break the natural tendency to move the head more than it being something that is forbidden.

But, the opponent can step when you step—unless you prevent/limit that (another point I tried to make).

The boxing/MMA concept is move your whole body by transferring your weight or stepping to move your head. Donaire shifts his weight to move his head.

I'm not sure in MMA but in Jow Ga we throw two. The fist strike hits the target as the lead foot land the second hits after the lead foot lands.

Both however, you don't have to step. Whether your fist lands as your lead foot lands or after, your step can still be intercepted with an attack.

 

[Fungus]

What Shane and the other guy don't mention is follow through. Donaire makes contact with the fist vertical and follows through (e.g, golf, basketball, baseball) by turning his punch over.

Which was that "Donaire link" again? want to make sure i got it.

Do you mean that main impact (where the peak force is) is on the two knuckles, and they as he follows through and the head deflects he slides over the rest of the knuckles (thus with less force) but adding to the impulse as he follows through?

When I throw this punch to the ribs I adust the fist angle to try to align the bone linkage curvator to the trajectory, as the strike is not perfectly straight, the optimal bone alignment isn't straight?

If I wanted to make a pure straight punch, the three knuckles is likely the only choice, is that perhaps their point? IF so I get it.

But this is why I don't think of such a strike as perfectlyt straight, at least not when using the two knuckles it's like a hybrid strike? The question is then, to throw a straight punch with the three knuckels or a hybrid punch (curved straight) with the two knuckles?

Does this make sense or am I still missing something?