The Influence of Kenpo On Modern Arnis

[Tgace]

I suppose it all comes down to numbers I guess. If a large enough chunk of practiconers are spreading the art with another martial art influence it will bleed over.

Whats the big deal with this issue anyway? Whats the political angle? Seems like a non-issue to me.

 

[Rich Parsons]

I suppose it all comes down to numbers I guess. If a large enough chunk of practiconers are spreading the art with another martial art influence it will bleed over.

Whats the big deal with this issue anyway? What the political angle? Seems like a non-issue to me.

The issue is that those who train in Kenpo of some form see the connection. Those that train in Kung Fu or CMA os some form, or any KMA, including that there were numerous schools who taugh both TKD and Modern Arnis in the South East Michigan region.

As to politics, I have none, for I have no organization, and I am not out there trying to convince people that the arts I have trained in have influenced other arts.

As to a non-issue, then why do you take such enjoyment out of feeding the fire?

 

[Tgace]

What fire? Whats the big deal here? Whats said or who is saying it? Who really knows what arts ultimately influenced MA and who cares? With the "make it your own" philosophy I dont think Prof. would deny any art its influence. Hed probably say "its all the same" I would think.

Whats the issue here?

 

[RickRed]

To be honest, you need to ask Tim Hartman about the names he uses. They are not the same terms I use, and are not the common terms used by everyone. I believe they are what he uses for his organization.

If everyone is using different terms now, wouldn't it make sense that it was happening earlier too? You haven't changed any of the terms or techniques or forms or order of the info from the way you were taught so that you can teach it better? You haven't been influenced by other things you have seen from other martial artists, ever?

No one that you are mentioning were beginners to martial arts from Kenpo, TKD Karate, Judo.

All of them in the 70' and later had other training. No one came as a white belt. That background would have been and influence then too.

YOu always hear people say stuff about how they use to do it at their old work or school or in theri parents house when they start something new. This would make sense in martial arts too.

 

[Tgace]

Rick...before you get to involved in some of these Mod Arnis threads check your PM's.

 

[Rich Parsons]

What fire? Whats the big deal here? Whats said or who is saying it? Who really knows what arts ultimately influenced MA and who cares? With the "make it your own" philosophy I dont think Prof. would deny any art its influence. Hed probably say "its all the same" I would think.

Whats the issue here?

Tom,

The issue here, is that this thread was split off to give it a chance to be discussed. I see Dr. Barber making some statements, and I have not said he was wrong. I said I do not see it, yet I see the credit to those who trained and introduced and supported.

You had no issues with this until I found an article that did not 100% agree with the teacher of your teacher. I made an opinion statement and also presented an article. I expected a reply from Dr. Barber himself. You have not added anything to this discussion until a piece of evidence was presented that did not agree 100% with you lineage of instructors. Note: I repeat I never said Dr. Barber was wrong, I just do not see the greater connection he is trying to present. I was hoping he could present more information and additional arguements to keep the discussion going.

But, no you had to jump in and say what is up with this? Why are we talking about this? What is my political agenda on this? Questions that are not really on topic and not really value added to the discussion.

If Datu Kelly Worden posts and tells me that there is a Kenpo influence, and one of the MoTT's posts and tels me they recognize the kenpo influence, and then someone from Jeff Delaney's org posts and tells me they see the influence, and Datu Dieter in Germany posts and tells me he sees the influence, then I will see from othes that there might be some influence.

Yet, I would expect that each of those mentioned, including all 6 of the MoTT's, would express that if they had training prior to training in Modern Arnis, that it would influence their own individual understanding, and approaches, for you always try to frame something into a frame of reference you already understand. Mine was just street brawling before I started to train in Modern Arnis.

So, once again I do not see the connection of Kenpo and Kenpo Techniques directly influencing Modern Arnis. I pleasantly wait for Dr. Barber's rebuttle, and or additional information.

 

[Rich Parsons]

If everyone is using different terms now, wouldn't it make sense that it was happening earlier too? You haven't changed any of the terms or techniques or forms or order of the info from the way you were taught so that you can teach it better? You haven't been influenced by other things you have seen from other martial artists, ever?

No one that you are mentioning were beginners to martial arts from Kenpo, TKD Karate, Judo.

All of them in the 70' and later had other training. No one came as a white belt. That background would have been and influence then too.

YOu always hear people say stuff about how they use to do it at their old work or school or in theri parents house when they start something new. This would make sense in martial arts too.

To say an individual uses something to help themselves is fine. And yes it would influence them and their students.

Yet, if you go back and try to emulate the GM himself, and use his methods of executing the technique, and to approach it from his point of view or his body mechanics, then it is modern arnis. Yes, I agree that the Professor had the concept of making it your own, for he was much mroe concerned with someone being able to defend themselves. Yet, if you talk to those who are serious about teaching and passing on theri knowledge they, will do theri best to teach it the way they learned, and try to keep it as genuine as possible.


And just for the record:

1) I did not say TKD Karate.

2) Modern Arnis is admitted sources of the Presas Family and Balintawak, and Judo Shoto Kan Karate.

3) There is one book that gives credit to Kenpo, but no one can point to me and say this is the Kenpo specific influence. I can point to the Shoto Kan influence. I can point to the Judo influence, and later the Small Circle Ju Jitsu influence.

4) Have no disrespect for any Kenpo lineage being from Hawai'i or be it from China, or America, or Japna, or anywhere else. I have friends who train it, and I see nothing wrong with their training for it works for them.

5) The body moves in distinct ways, and there are certain ways that joint locks and vital areas are exposed or taken advantage of. If you see the top people for different arts, you will notice no matter if it be linear or circular system, or hard or soft, when they attack a wrist, there are certain similarities. When they attack a body for impact, they attack the similar areas for these are the target zones of the body. I agree that each arts has a different method of teaching basics and teaching progression, and that their entries and applications may vary.

6) You may contact me at anytime for pesonal conversation to hear my voice inflections if you wish. 248-467-9454 is my cell phone. If you want I will contact you. I harbor no ill will towards any Kenpo influence, I am just trying to better understand, and as any educator will tell you, if the student does not ask a question or make the statement that they do not see the connection or understand the influence, then no further education on this subject is possible. So instead of closing my mind and avoiding the issue, I was trying to have a discussin with Dr. Barber and those who trained in Kenpo and in Modern Arnis, to furhter present the conenction.

Peace
:asian:

 

[arnisador]

http://www.wmarnis.com/pdfs/black.pdf
This curriculum and terminology looks like a blend of many FMA and Kenpo influences and not just Modern Arnis.

I think the Kenpo influence here is mainly the terminology, and that that influence was from Huk Planas to Mr. Hartman. This curriculum is from after the Professor's passing.

It does refelct some additional Balintatwak influence on Modern Arnis as well. Mr. Hartman can address these issues in more detail.

 

[arnisador]

If everyone is using different terms now, wouldn't it make sense that it was happening earlier too?

I thought we were focused on when the Professor was alive. Then, he decided what was in the art...but he was very expansive about allowing a person to bring his or her own training into their own expression of the art. Occasionally some of that would creep into Modern Arnis as a whole if he liked the technique...Wally Jay's SCJJ is the best example.

I see no Kenpo in what the Professor taught. Does it matter? Sure, everyone likes to know their own origins!

 

[arnisador]

Modern Arnis is admitted sources of the Presas Family and Balintawak, and Judo Shoto Kan Karate.

Add Wally Jay's SCJJ and you've got all the major ones, I think. I'm sure he picked up other little things here and tehre, as we all do.

He spent a lot of time with George Dillman, but only once did I see him do a DKI-style technique, and it was on the side for just Mr. Hartman and me. I don't think it influenced the art he taught in a big way; I'm sure it affected how he viewed some things, and maybe how he explained them.

In Michigan there were always TKD people, Kung Fu people, Karate people, etc. It affected how they did arnis, and the Professor was not just Ok with that, he encouraged it; but while he'd occasionally have someone demo their variant of an anyo or something, it didn't make it onto the testing sheets, or what the Professor showed, etc.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Add Wally Jay's SCJJ and you've got all the major ones, I think. I'm sure he picked up other little things here and tehre, as we all do.

From the quoted interview is where I listed the four sources. The SCJJ has influenced and I can see as presented by myself and others in other threads.

He spent a lot of time with George Dillman, but only once did I see him do a DKI-style technique, and it was on the side for just Mr. Hartman and me. I don't think it influenced the art he taught in a big way; I'm sure it affected how he viewed some things, and maybe how he explained them.

Yes, I agree, just because I have friends and associates who are in TKD and other arts, this does not mean I take their techniques and or my training is influenced by their training.

In Michigan there were always TKD people, Kung Fu people, Karate people, etc. It affected how they did arnis, and the Professor was not just Ok with that, he encouraged it; but while he'd occasionally have someone demo their variant of an anyo or something, it didn't make it onto the testing sheets, or what the Professor showed, etc.

That is my point you could do what you want for yourself and for your self defense, but when it came time for the testing, . . . , .

 

[arnisador]

Since most of us were not around in 1975, we really don't know what if anything Professor took from the Kenpo side, but since he himself includes that short piece about Kenpo being an influence on him/his art, in his 1983 book, published by Ohara, denying any influences from Kenpo is not realistic because that means that Professor lied in his presentation

I'm not so sure. English was not the Professor's first language, and I don't think anyone thinks that he literally 'wrote' that book. I know it's been said that Joo Bang Lee's Hwa Rang Do books from Ohara contained large sections of boilerplate written by his students published under his name. (I don't know whether this is true or not.) A recent review in JAMA had the reviewer lamenting the fact that the title of his book was changed by the publisher to something embarrassing to him. There are constantly letters to the editor complaining that Black Belt has redacted comments in articles they had published in it (or there used to be--I don't read it so muc any more). This is common.

My textbook had, uh, surprising things appear in it thanks to the copyeditor and publisher and all the other hands that touched it. (They kept 'correcting' one equation--it drove me crazy!) That was a book I myself wrote. If I had didctated it to someone else who wrote, and at the time we're talking someone else may well have typed it, who knows? I question this as a source written by the Professor. I certainly believe that others actually wrote the book that went out under the Professor's name, based on his comments, directions, and previous works, and that Ohara edited it for style, content, and audience appeal.

So, while I don't doubt that the Professor said something about Kenpo and/or its practitioners, I'm less prepared to accept this source as being definitive about its influence on the art. In fact, its isolation--with no other sources to help verify it--makes it questionable. I cannot read as much into it as you are willing to do.

I didn't know about some of the connections with Kenpoists, though, and I do find this interesting! I hope you'll post more info. if you have it. I just can't put as much weight on this piece of evidence as you do.

 

[Tgace]

I think there is something "universal" about modern arnis. Almost everybody can see pieces of their art in it. Is it really there? Who knows?

 

[Mark Lynn]

Add Wally Jay's SCJJ and you've got all the major ones, I think. I'm sure he picked up other little things here and tehre, as we all do.

He spent a lot of time with George Dillman, but only once did I see him do a DKI-style technique, and it was on the side for just Mr. Hartman and me. I don't think it influenced the art he taught in a big way; I'm sure it affected how he viewed some things, and maybe how he explained them.

On the point of possible Dillman influence on Modern Arnis I would suggest possibly two techniques that I have seen that seem very Dillman influenced. I not saying there aren't others but FWIW.

1) The arm bar, the way Remy describes the technique and demonstrates it is to me very Dillman (come to think of it Wally Jay as well) (so which came first Dillman or Wally Jay :idunno: )

2) The reverse elbow wrench (the application of the forhand chop in karate in reverse). This was also an application for the emptyhand crossada type motion.

Now the reason I say this is because from training with his brother (GM Ernesto) and seeing his older books and such I don't see the techniques done like this. They look more like how GM Ernesto does it.

Just thinking about it though maybe he was influenced in the American Martial arts more than we think. What I mean is that maybe we (American martial artists) influenced him more than any one style such as kenpo, TKD, etc. etc.

Look at the old books (the ones from the Philippines) and see how elongated the stances and the off balancing positions are. To me they look like GM Ernesto's books as well, then look at his Ohara book and it seems less ridgid. His tapes have the same feel/look to them.

Just a thought.
Mark

 

[Mark Lynn]

I just thought of something, I have a manual/info book or something of GM Max Pallen's that describes about his time with GM Remy. I'll try and find it and see if it says anything about the influences on Modern Arnis. It's been a while since I have seen it so it might take me a while but I'll try and dig it out tomorrow.

Also I know an instructor who has visited on this forum (MT) before who is associated with GM Max (he is also a Kajukenpo instructor) and maybe he can ask GM Max about any infulence kenpo/kajukenpo etc. etc. that MA might have.

FWIW
Mark

 

[RickRed]

To say an individual uses something to help themselves is fine. And yes it would influence them and their students.

Yet, if you go back and try to emulate the GM himself, and use his methods of executing the technique, and to approach it from his point of view or his body mechanics, then it is modern arnis. Yes, I agree that the Professor had the concept of making it your own, for he was much mroe concerned with someone being able to defend themselves. Yet, if you talk to those who are serious about teaching and passing on theri knowledge they, will do theri best to teach it the way they learned, and try to keep it as genuine as possible.


And just for the record:

1) I did not say TKD Karate.

2) Modern Arnis is admitted sources of the Presas Family and Balintawak, and Judo Shoto Kan Karate.

3) There is one book that gives credit to Kenpo, but no one can point to me and say this is the Kenpo specific influence. I can point to the Shoto Kan influence. I can point to the Judo influence, and later the Small Circle Ju Jitsu influence.

4) Have no disrespect for any Kenpo lineage being from Hawai'i or be it from China, or America, or Japna, or anywhere else. I have friends who train it, and I see nothing wrong with their training for it works for them.

5) The body moves in distinct ways, and there are certain ways that joint locks and vital areas are exposed or taken advantage of. If you see the top people for different arts, you will notice no matter if it be linear or circular system, or hard or soft, when they attack a wrist, there are certain similarities. When they attack a body for impact, they attack the similar areas for these are the target zones of the body. I agree that each arts has a different method of teaching basics and teaching progression, and that their entries and applications may vary.

6) You may contact me at anytime for pesonal conversation to hear my voice inflections if you wish. 248-467-9454 is my cell phone. If you want I will contact you. I harbor no ill will towards any Kenpo influence, I am just trying to better understand, and as any educator will tell you, if the student does not ask a question or make the statement that they do not see the connection or understand the influence, then no further education on this subject is possible. So instead of closing my mind and avoiding the issue, I was trying to have a discussin with Dr. Barber and those who trained in Kenpo and in Modern Arnis, to furhter present the conenction.

Peace
:asian:

All I am saying is that if Kenpo influenced Modern Arnis, then it did. If it was because the GM did it or people that were teaching it between seminars, then it could be there. The rest of the stuff on what teachers should be doing and stuff is really a personal view. I think a teacher's job is to get students to learn not only teach the text book, but that is what I think. Even you said the GM was more interested in self defense - maybe he didn't care if Kenpo or other arts were an influence either as long as the basics were there. Students may have written comments that the GM took credit for in books, who knows if he knew what was being said if someone was explaining the kenpo influence to him if his english was that bad. It worked, keep doing it. Who really knows for sure.

The like was an example of how outside arts have influenced it now. It would make sense that it happened when the GM was alive too when he was teaching from seminars. The World Modern Arnis Alliance website had this on the site:

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Our first goal is to further the growth of Arnis throughout the world. Secondly, in keeping with the example set by Remy Presas, our intent is to set the highest technical standards possible for the global Arnis community. [/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]We will achieve this by designing specific training programs that will advance the progression of our art while developing maximum student proficiency. [/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]For those who do not have immediate access to an instructor and who are training on their own, rank promotion is still possible. Students will have access to a directory of black belts, schools, and instructors in the Modern Arnis community. These people will be available to periodically assist students with their training in preparation for their advancement. Geographical constraints will not be a deterrent to the growth of Modern Arnis. "[/font]

Datu Hartman seems to be changing things from what the GM was doing. The GM was changing and combining things from other arts to make Modern Arnis. Datu Hartman is designing training to fit the student. THere is also a list of other instructors that he recommends. Not everyone of them will teach the same thing the same way. Maybe they won't even say it the same way. If they have other arts, that will influence how they teach, but if the students can pass the tests when they see D.Hartman again...how would anyone know if it was Kenpo, TKD, Judo, Boxing or anything else that influenced the training?

Didn't the GM teach at seminars? How would he really know if people with Kenpo training were using that to help students pass belt tests at seminars?

All I am saying it is possible. Just like the other art influences are possible.

 

[RickRed]

Rick...before you get to involved in some of these Mod Arnis threads check your PM's.

I see what you mean. Thanks.

 

[arnisador]

How would he really know if people with Kenpo training were using that to help students pass belt tests at seminars?

People did the like all the time. It was encouraged: The Art Within Your Art. People would do anyos at testing and you could pick off the kung fu people, TKD people, etc.

It may well have affected how someone, somewhere teaches his martial arts, but I didn't see an influence on what the Professor taught and on what was required of people, demonstrated on the tapes, etc.

 

[arnisador]

1) The arm bar, the way Remy describes the technique and demonstrates it is to me very Dillman (come to think of it Wally Jay as well) (so which came first Dillman or Wally Jay :idunno: )

I thought it was influenced by Wally Jay's system. I'm not certain of this however.

2) The reverse elbow wrench (the application of the forhand chop in karate in reverse). This was also an application for the emptyhand crossada type motion.

If I understand the technique you mean, it's common to many systems, isn't it? What is the DKI angle on it?

He may well have picked up something like this--he would have had to have picked up something, I imagine--but I can't come up with a good example.

 

[Dan Anderson]

I think there is something "universal" about modern arnis. Almost everybody can see pieces of their art in it. Is it really there? Who knows?

Tom,
You hit the nail on the head. I feel it is universal. The Art Within Your Art was more than a marketing slogan.

Just thinking about it though maybe he was influenced in the American Martial arts more than we think. What I mean is that maybe we (American martial artists) influenced him more than any one style such as kenpo, TKD, etc. etc.

Mark,
VERY astute comment. Remy Presas was a very keen observer. He watched very closely. Anyone who knows the story of his first meeting with Bruce Juchnik knows what I mean. It is not surprising that upon meeting Prof. Jay that he picked up on SMJJ concepts or seeing George Dillman doing pressure points, that he altered some of his actions to include DKI concepts. These are the obvious ones. I do think there were many Americans he met who influenced him, one way or the other, but in more subtle and less obvious ways.

His art kept changing and evolving. Something was influencing him.

Yours,
Dan Anderson