The hatred of boot scooting

[Hanzou]

https://www.reddit.com/r/martialarts/comments/qbtiw0

This video has been making the rounds on the internet. It shows a sport BJJ match where one of the competitors enters seated guard and his opponent refuses to engage and even mocks his opponent. Eventually he engages and is EASILY submitted by the BJJ exponent via seated guard.

Now, I've seen plenty of grapplers complain about this tactic, saying that it's "cheating" or "cowardly". However, within the rules of sport BJJ, it's completely legal, and frankly effective. In addition, the rules state that a grappler must engage or they will lose the match, which makes sense. You can't simply run away from your opponent because you don't want to engage their guard.

I don't know, the general attitude of disgust towards how sport BJJ operates is just funny to me. If you want to compete in a sport BJJ competition, you need to learn how to deal with sport BJJ rules. There is an argument that such tactics can water down the self defense portion, but many people who compete aren't doing it for SD purposes. They're doing it for sport. Anyway, I just wanted to bring this up for possible discussion, because I think it beings up the typical sport vs. traditional MA debate, and a style vs style debate because plenty of wrestlers and Judoka absolutely despise these tactics, but due to the lack of other forms of grappling competitions, active compete in BJJ competitions because they're more widespread.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

https://www.reddit.com/r/martialarts/comments/qbtiw0

This video has been making the rounds on the internet. It shows a sport BJJ match where one of the competitors enters seated guard and his opponent refuses to engage and even mocks his opponent. Eventually he engages and is EASILY submitted by the BJJ exponent via seated guard.

Now, I've seen plenty of grapplers complain about this tactic, saying that it's "cheating" or "cowardly". However, within the rules of sport BJJ, it's completely legal, and frankly effective. In addition, the rules state that a grappler must engage or they will lose the match, which makes sense. You can't simply run away from your opponent because you don't want to engage their guard.

I don't know, the general attitude of disgust towards how sport BJJ operates is just funny to me. If you want to compete in a sport BJJ competition, you need to learn how to deal with sport BJJ rules. There is an argument that such tactics can water down the self defense portion, but many people who compete aren't doing it for SD purposes. They're doing it for sport. Anyway, I just wanted to bring this up for possible discussion, because I think it beings up the typical sport vs. traditional MA debate, and a style vs style debate because plenty of wrestlers and Judoka absolutely despise these tactics, but due to the lack of other forms of grappling competitions, active compete in BJJ competitions because they're more widespread.

Why doesn't the requirement to engage apply to the guy who sat down? He has claimed a position by not engaging, hasn't he?

I honestly think this is a gap in the rules.

 

[dvcochran]

Why doesn't the requirement to engage apply to the guy who sat down? He has claimed a position by not engaging, hasn't he?

I honestly think this is a gap in the rules.

Albeit an unexpected gap. More of a learned competition strategy maybe?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Albeit an unexpected gap. More of a learned competition strategy maybe?

Definitely a learned competition strategy. Just one that I think the rules should be amended to reduce. To me, sitting down and waiting for your opponent is the epitome of "not engaging", regardless of the position ("guard") used. Pulling guard is one thing. Pulling it and just sitting there waiting (yeah, he scoots toward his opponent, but only when that opponent moves away - he makes no offensive effort at all to engage), is something different.

 

[dvcochran]

Definitely a learned competition strategy. Just one that I think the rules should be amended to reduce. To me, sitting down and waiting for your opponent is the epitome of "not engaging", regardless of the position ("guard") used. Pulling guard is one thing. Pulling it and just sitting there waiting (yeah, he scoots toward his opponent, but only when that opponent moves away - he makes no offensive effort at all to engage), is something different.

Yes I do feel it should be looked at as some form of stalling which is usually a penalty in my competition experience.

 

[Steve]

It's a ground fighting competition, so requiring someone who is standing there like a jackwagon for not wanting to grapple on the mat is perfectly consistent with the philosophy behind the competition. If you don't want to grapple, and prefer to disengage, stands up, and backs away, maybe you should practice more before entering your next BJJ or sub. wrestling competition. In MMA, Judo, and most wrestling competitions, the referee rewards the one who doesn't want to stay on the ground. But in a ground fighting competition, if the person on the ground got there within the rules, he doesn't have to stand up.

If anything, I think the dudes who are afraid to grapple in a grappling match are the ones who deserve our scorn and should be mocked for entering a BJJ competition.

 

[Steve]

Yes I do feel it should be looked at as some form of stalling which is usually a penalty in my competition experience.

You mean the guy who's standing there and not engaging? It is stalling, and under IBJJF rules, that guy should have received a penalty and eventually be DQ'd. After 20 seconds, if you standing there refusing to engage, you receive a penalty. After another 20 seconds, you receive another penalty (note that you can potentially lose on penalty points if time expires). After another 20 seconds, you lose 2 points and the match is stood up. And if you stall again, you are DQ'd.

 

[dvcochran]

You mean the guy who's standing there and not engaging? It is stalling, and under IBJJF rules, that guy should have received a penalty and eventually be DQ'd. After 20 seconds, if you standing there refusing to engage, you receive a penalty. After another 20 seconds, you receive another penalty (note that you can potentially lose on penalty points if time expires). After another 20 seconds, you lose 2 points and the match is stood up. And if you stall again, you are DQ'd.

Are you saying as long as a person is on the ground they cannot receive a penalty for stalling? If there is up fighting and down fighting in BJJ isn't this a form of 'gaming the system'.

 

[Steve]

Definitely a learned competition strategy. Just one that I think the rules should be amended to reduce. To me, sitting down and waiting for your opponent is the epitome of "not engaging", regardless of the position ("guard") used. Pulling guard is one thing. Pulling it and just sitting there waiting (yeah, he scoots toward his opponent, but only when that opponent moves away - he makes no offensive effort at all to engage), is something different.

You are literally saying that he is moving forward and the other guy is moving away... and yet the guy moving forward is stalling? Huh.

How is sitting there, waiting for your opponent to engage, moving toward him as he moves away stalling, but the guy standing up, moving away from the combat, literally refusing to engage in the grappling match not stalling? That just doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Steve]

Are you saying as long as a person is on the ground they cannot receive a penalty for stalling? If there is up fighting and down fighting in BJJ isn't this a form of 'gaming the system'.

It's not gaming the system. It is literally the point of the system.

Think about it like this. In MMA, when a guy is on the ground with a BJJ expert and doesn't want to mess around with their grappling, he can stand up (if he can) and back away. The referee will require that the BJJ guy stand up... is that gaming the system? I don't think so. It's an accepted, well understood mechanic within the rules.

A person on the ground CAN receive a penalty for stalling, and when both competitors are grappling on the mat, it's not all that uncommon for both to receive a stalling penalty at the same time. For example, if a person is in closed guard and is just holding on for dear life, that is stalling. Similarly, a guy on top (whether in mount, side control, etc) is just sitting there and not moving to either improve his position or pursue a submission, that's also stalling. But in this case, it's clearly the guy who is standing there who is stalling.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Why doesn't the requirement to engage apply to the guy who sat down? He has claimed a position by not engaging, hasn't he?

I honestly think this is a gap in the rules.

He's very directly moving towards the other guy each time the guy moves away-labelling him as the one trying to engage. It doesn't matter probably that when he gets close he just slows down a lot or ultimately waits for the standing guy to engage, from a rules perspective (that I think would count for most martial competitions), he's the one bringing the fight to engagement distance, so he's not at fault for the lack of contact/engagement.

 

[dvcochran]

It's not gaming the system. It is literally the point of the system.

Think about it like this. In MMA, when a guy is on the ground with a BJJ expert and doesn't want to mess around with their grappling, he can stand up (if he can) and back away. The referee will require that the BJJ guy stand up... is that gaming the system? I don't think so. It's an accepted, well understood mechanic within the rules.

A person on the ground CAN receive a penalty for stalling, and when both competitors are grappling on the mat, it's not all that uncommon for both to receive a stalling penalty at the same time. For example, if a person is in closed guard and is just holding on for dear life, that is stalling. Similarly, a guy on top (whether in mount, side control, etc) is just sitting there and not moving to either improve his position or pursue a submission, that's also stalling. But in this case, it's clearly the guy who is standing there who is stalling.

Then Both of them are stalling?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Then Both of them are stalling?

Personally, I agree. But if you look, the guy on the ground continuously moves to a distance where either of them can engage. As a ref of most sports I would rule the guy willing to enter engagement distance as not stalling while the guy who is leaving that distance is. Though from a bystander's standpoint I'd view it as them both stalling/refusing to engage unless the other person engages in the position they want.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Butt scooting is a perfectly legitimate tactic in the current sport of BJJ competition under most rulesets.

The issue is that it's a terrible tactic for any sort of real life combative situation. If you regard BJJ as a martial art and not just as a specialized competitive sport, then it's not the behavior you want to see.

BJJ tournament rules were originally designed to reward and reinforce BJJ tactics which would be effective in a fight without forcing practitioners to deal with the dangers of full-fledged Vale Tudo/MMA matches. Inevitably, some competitors have chosen to optimize their style for the rules as written rather than for the original intent of supplementing fighting skills.

Is that a problem? If you are competing just for the sake of the sport as it is, then no. If you just want to have fun and win trophies, then you should work out whatever approach gives you the most success under the rules.

If you are practicing BJJ as a martial art, then you have a few options. You can compete in BJJ tournaments, but stick to a more classic style focused on takedowns and top control. You can spar/compete under other rulesets which reward more combatively correct behavior. (Either instead of or in addition to typical BJJ tournaments.) You can try to run your own tournaments which encourage the tactics you want to see rewarded. If you are an instructor, you can make your students spend time sparring in more combatively productive ways rather than just teaching them to optimize their tournament game.

Personally, I don't mind the existence of the current typical BJJ tournaments as a fun sport which also happens to help build a subset of the skills involved in BJJ the martial art. I just don't want to see students coming up through the ranks who only know how to play that tournament game and not how to defend themselves in a real fight. That's why I make sure I give my students a solid base in striking defense, clinching, takedowns, getting up, and awareness of street context before I give them any specialized techniques or tactics which are just for sport.

 

[Steve]

Then Both of them are stalling?

If the guy on the mat were also moving away from combat, I would agree with you. That's not what happened in this match.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Butt scooting is a perfectly legitimate tactic in the current sport of BJJ competition under most rulesets.

The issue is that it's a terrible tactic for any sort of real life combative situation. If you regard BJJ as a martial art and not just as a specialized competitive sport, then it's not the behavior you want to see.

BJJ tournament rules were originally designed to reward and reinforce BJJ tactics which would be effective in a fight without forcing practitioners to deal with the dangers of full-fledged Vale Tudo/MMA matches. Inevitably, some competitors have chosen to optimize their style for the rules as written rather than for the original intent of supplementing fighting skills.

Is that a problem? If you are competing just for the sake of the sport as it is, then no. If you just want to have fun and win trophies, then you should work out whatever approach gives you the most success under the rules.

If you are practicing BJJ as a martial art, then you have a few options. You can compete in BJJ tournaments, but stick to a more classic style focused on takedowns and top control. You can spar/compete under other rulesets which reward more combatively correct behavior. (Either instead of or in addition to typical BJJ tournaments.) You can try to run your own tournaments which encourage the tactics you want to see rewarded. If you are an instructor, you can make your students spend time sparring in more combatively productive ways rather than just teaching them to optimize their tournament game.

Personally, I don't mind the existence of the current typical BJJ tournaments as a fun sport which also happens to help build a subset of the skills involved in BJJ the martial art. I just don't want to see students coming up through the ranks who only know how to play that tournament game and not how to defend themselves in a real fight. That's why I make sure I give my students a solid base in striking defense, clinching, takedowns, getting up, and awareness of street context before I give them any specialized techniques or tactics which are just for sport.

The biggest issue I see with this, from a martial perspective rather than sport perspective, is that it eliminates a need to learn important parts of the game. If you butt scoot, you never have to learn the initial fight, and can spend all your practice time doing the start from kneel/sitting position that a lot of BJJ school do whenever they roll. Which encourages them to again not try anything else in tournaments, and specialize in just the one aspect of BJJ.

And is also why when people see BJJ they often have no idea that there's a standing part to the art at all.

 

[Steve]

If you are practicing BJJ as a martial art, then you have a few options. You can compete in BJJ tournaments, but stick to a more classic style focused on takedowns and top control. You can spar/compete under other rulesets which reward more combatively correct behavior. (Either instead of or in addition to typical BJJ tournaments.) You can try to run your own tournaments which encourage the tactics you want to see rewarded. If you are an instructor, you can make your students spend time sparring in more combatively productive ways rather than just teaching them to optimize their tournament game.

Excellent post overall, but this part is gold.

Personally, I agree. But if you look, the guy on the ground continuously moves to a distance where either of them can engage. As a ref of most sports I would rule the guy willing to enter engagement distance as not stalling while the guy who is leaving that distance is. Though from a bystander's standpoint I'd view it as them both stalling/refusing to engage unless the other person engages in the position they want.

If he were making at least an attempt to engage the standing guys legs, it would have looked better, I think. But the reality is that a person who is backing away from combat will continue to do so. I have seen matches where the person on the mat is actively and persistently attacking the standing guy's legs, and the standing guy still wants the referee to stand him up. 🤷‍♂️

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

If he were making at least an attempt to engage the standing guys legs, it would have looked better, I think. But the reality is that a person who is backing away from combat will continue to do so. I have seen matches where the person on the mat is actively and persistently attacking the standing guy's legs, and the standing guy still wants the referee to stand him up. 🤷‍♂️

Yup. Like I said from what this particular video, he's putting in the least token amount of effort to be considered the aggressor. Makes the video more meme-worthy than some of the others out there.

 

[Steve]

The biggest issue I see with this, from a martial perspective rather than sport perspective, is that it eliminates a need to learn important parts of the game. If you butt scoot, you never have to learn the initial fight, and can spend all your practice time doing the start from kneel/sitting position that a lot of BJJ school do whenever they roll. Which encourages them to again not try anything else in tournaments, and specialize in just the one aspect of BJJ.

And is also why when people see BJJ they often have no idea that there's a standing part to the art at all.

I agree completely that folks should be as well rounded as possible. But I am also a huge fan of diverse rulesets, and while the focus is on the guy who might be neglecting his takedowns... no one is commenting at all on the guy who might be (and probably is) neglecting his ground grappling to the point that he is reluctant to engage in his opponent's guard.

Also, I think it's important to note that a person can't just sit down. He or she has to engage from standing when both are standing. And also, theoretically, the guard is a neutral position, so if a person pulls guard they are not really shifting the momentum of the match. They are simply moving from one neutral position to another and getting the match to the ground, where in a ground fighting competition, it kind of belongs.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

The biggest issue I see with this, from a martial perspective rather than sport perspective, is that it eliminates a need to learn important parts of the game. If you butt scoot, you never have to learn the initial fight, and can spend all your practice time doing the start from kneel/sitting position that a lot of BJJ school do whenever they roll. Which encourages them to again not try anything else in tournaments, and specialize in just the one aspect of BJJ.

And is also why when people see BJJ they often have no idea that there's a standing part to the art at all.

Exactly. It can also lead to a situation where some athletes can theoretically gain a competitive advantage by not learning those aspects of the art. If you have only a certain number of hours to practice during the week and you know that you're going up against some opponents who already have a strong takedown game, then time spent working the standup portion of the art is essentially wasted and will lead to your opponent starting out with a 2-point advantage. You either have to spend enough time on your standup so that you can compete with the wrestlers, judoka, and the subset of jiu-jiteiros who have spent years building that strong standup game, or else you can just bypass all of that and spend all your practice hours developing a killer guard game. If your opponents have spent their training time split between standup and ground skills, you may end up with an advantage.