Does the removal of "lethal techniques" lead to a better martial art?

Tez3

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I think this is a rehash of what we have been discussing for months. Neil Ohlenkamp is a top Judoka without doubt and has written this article from his perspective to justify his training and his training methodology. I believe that the article has been posted because it reflects the training and the training methodology of the OP.

There is nothing wrong with training that way and it is not wrong to train a RB style, just that one is, in the main, training for competition.

The only comment I will make is to disagree with the idea of pulling punches to demonstrate control. Sure, people who pull punches may still be able to punch hard, but I do believe it is not good training. I think it is better to have the range right and punch with reduced power. It is easy to increase power. It is much more difficult to adjust range.

Now, I'm out of here. I've heard it all before.
:s436:


and it's so much more fun to actually hit people instead of pretending...................:rofl:
 
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Hanzou

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"Refined" might as easily in this case, mean "hidden."

If you're telling me that a Judo throw is lethal, yet people are getting Judo thrown all the time and not dying from it, there's a disconnect somewhere.

There's very little difference between applying a choke until the opponent is unconscious, and killing them.

Other than the fact that one person is unconscious, while the other person is dead.....

There are other ways of practicing eye gouges-likewise, shooting someone. In fact, I'd say that nearly everyone who has shot someone hit paper targets for practice before hand. Likewise stabs: I'd never stabbed anyone until the day I did, but I'd practiced it hundreds of times.

Not really. If I'm shooting a gun at someone, the bullet is going to tear through their flesh regardless. So you can shoot paper targets to improve your aim all you want, the bullet is what is doing the damage, not you. Eye gouging is all you, purposely digging your fingers into someone's eye socket. A bullet through the head does the same amount of damage regardless of who is pulling the trigger.

Oh, and that eye gouge? I've done that, too-and that guy didn't die. He didn't even lose his eye: I apparently needed a bit more practice.

So how many of your training partners did you purposely gouge in order to develop your technique? :uhoh:
 

elder999

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If you're telling me that a Judo throw is lethal, yet people are getting Judo thrown all the time and not dying from it, there's a disconnect somewhere.

The disconnect is clearly between your ears....:rolleyes:



Other than the fact that one person is unconscious, while the other person is dead.....

WHat then, would be the difference in practice and applying a choke to render a person unconscious, versus applying one to render them dead?


Are you saying that you have to actually kill someone with a choke in order to be able to?


Not really. If I'm shooting a gun at someone, the bullet is going to tear through their flesh regardless. So you can shoot paper targets to improve your aim all you want, the bullet is what is doing the damage, not you.


Clearly, another disconnect between the ears, if you think using a gun to deliberately kill anything doesn't require non-lethal practice, or that such non-lethal practice doesn't develop the ability to kill with a gun...or a knife...or even fountain pen.


So how many of your training partners did you purposely gouge in order to develop your technique? :uhoh:

None., but I can't even tell you how many oranges and key-limes.....:lfao:
 
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Hanzou

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The disconnect is clearly between your ears....:rolleyes:

Then please give me the death rate in Judo. It must be quite high since you believe those throws are deadly....

WHat then, would be the difference in practice and applying a choke to render a person unconscious, versus applying one to render them dead?

Holding the choke for an extended amount of time after the person has passed out instead of releasing the choke as soon as the person has passed out.

Are you saying that you have to actually kill someone with a choke in order to be able to?

No, I'm saying that a choke is a potentially lethal technique, but it can be practiced and used without lethal intentions or consequences. I can choke someone out for a variety of purposes. Eye gouging, head stomping, windpipe striking, etc. really on serve a singular purpose.

Clearly, another disconnect between the ears, if you think using a gun to deliberately kill anything doesn't require non-lethal practice, or that such non-lethal practice doesn't develop the ability to kill with a gun...or a knife...or even fountain pen.

Which isn't what I'm saying. I'm saying there's a big difference between shooting a gun, stabbing someone, and eye gouging someone. So much so that comparing those training methods is pretty silly.
 

jks9199

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Then please give me the death rate in Judo. It must be quite high since you believe those throws are deadly....
Potentially lethal, not automatically lethal. As practiced and used in competition, they're seldom done in a manner intended to slam a person's head into the ground. Do you take every arm lock to the point of breaking the limb? Or choke every person out until they die? Of course not.
Holding the choke for an extended amount of time after the person has passed out instead of releasing the choke as soon as the person has passed out.
It's not held for an "extended amount of time" if the purpose is to kill; it's held as long as necessary. In some cases, merely a matter of seconds longer...
No, I'm saying that a choke is a potentially lethal technique, but it can be practiced and used without lethal intentions or consequences. I can choke someone out for a variety of purposes. Eye gouging, head stomping, windpipe striking, etc. really on serve a singular purpose.
There are ways to practice many of those techniques without carrying them to the full extent of doing harm. One way is to practice SLOWLY, delivering the technique but not actually doing harm. Another is to use controlled force. A third is to use appropriate safety gear. Any of these -- or other methods! -- can be combined with practicing the full force, full speed technique against various striking targets like a BOB bag, heavy bag, or other sorts of targets.
Which isn't what I'm saying. I'm saying there's a big difference between shooting a gun, stabbing someone, and eye gouging someone. So much so that comparing those training methods is pretty silly.

No, there's not. But I've seen nothing in your posts that suggest that you'll listen to anyone who doesn't support BJJ style rolling, maybe heavy contact sparring for strikers, as valid training.
 

elder999

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Holding the choke for an extended amount of time after the person has passed out instead of releasing the choke as soon as the person has passed out.

Not if you've decided to kill them.



.. Eye gouging, head stomping, windpipe striking, etc. really on serve a singular purpose.

They can all be-and have always been-practiced without actual execution.



Which isn't what I'm saying. I'm saying there's a big difference between shooting a gun, stabbing someone, and eye gouging someone. So much so that comparing those training methods is pretty silly.

There is no difference, in that they all require training and practice.
 

Tony Dismukes

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It's important to remember that every single training method we have available to us is "unrealistic" in one way or another and thus has weaknesses of one sort or another. Until we invent holodeck technology, and a few other science-fiction devises besides, this will always be the case. That means whatever your preferred approach to training is, there are drawbacks to it.

If I had to select just one training methodology, I would probably choose the one advocated in the original article - limiting myself to the subset of techniques which can be safely practiced all-out "live" against resistance in some form of randori. You could also make an excellent argument for scenario training, as Kong Soo Do does.

Fortunately, I don't have to select just one training methodology. That means I can recognize the weaknesses in each approach and try to compensate by spending some time with different approaches that have different weaknesses.

Regarding eye gouges, for example: I do train them. I don't make them the foundation of my training because I recognize there is no practical, legal, or ethical way to develop the same level of understanding and confidence in them that I can in my ability to punch someone in the face, pin them, or choke them. Despite that, I recognize that they can be legitimate, fight-ending techniques. Hopefully the amount of training I do with them will be enough to keep someone else from eye-gouging me in a fight and allow me to make a decent attempt at using them myself in the unlikely event that I would ever need to.
 

elder999

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And I guess my chief objection to the premise of the article isn't focused so much on the basics of what's being said-it's the idea that lethal techniques have been "removed" from judo, which is, quite simply, false....
 
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Hanzou

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Potentially lethal, not automatically lethal. As practiced and used in competition, they're seldom done in a manner intended to slam a person's head into the ground. Do you take every arm lock to the point of breaking the limb? Or choke every person out until they die? Of course not.

Funny, I said the exact same thing in an earlier post.

It's not held for an "extended amount of time" if the purpose is to kill; it's held as long as necessary. In some cases, merely a matter of seconds longer...

Er..there's no difference it what we're saying here. :uhoh:

There are ways to practice many of those techniques without carrying them to the full extent of doing harm. One way is to practice SLOWLY, delivering the technique but not actually doing harm. Another is to use controlled force. A third is to use appropriate safety gear. Any of these -- or other methods! -- can be combined with practicing the full force, full speed technique against various striking targets like a BOB bag, heavy bag, or other sorts of targets.

However in none of those cases are you applying maximum force on a living, resisting opponent. For example, under what circumstance can I ever stomp someone in the head with full force while training? When can I ever dig my fingers into someone's eye socket under full force and resistance in order to perfect my eye gouging technique?

No, there's not. But I've seen nothing in your posts that suggest that you'll listen to anyone who doesn't support BJJ style rolling, maybe heavy contact sparring for strikers, as valid training.

Everyone should support heavy contact sparring. :)
 

Tony Dismukes

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And I guess my chief objection to the premise of the article isn't focused so much on the basics of what's being said-it's the idea that lethal techniques have been "removed" from judo, which is, quite simply, false....

i don't think it's so much that lethal techniques have been removed from judo. More that the techniques which cannot be practiced live in a non-lethal/non-injurious manner have been removed. As you noted, judo has lots of techniques which can be lethal or seriously injurious if used that way. I suspect that's more what the author meant.
 

elder999

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i don't think it's so much that lethal techniques have been removed from judo. More that the techniques which cannot be practiced live in a non-lethal/non-injurious manner have been removed. As you noted, judo has lots of techniques which can be lethal or seriously injurious if used that way. I suspect that's more what the author meant.

Nothing's been "removed," except for what's been made illegal in contests, and even that is still part of judo..

I'm old enough to have been in judo contests where it was completely legal to do a knife-hand strike to the opponents forearms-non letal, btw.

Never mind leg pick ups. :rolleyes:

I'm guessing I'll live long enough for somebody to tell me that "there are no leg pick ups in judo." :lfao:
 

elder999

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Which isn't what I'm saying. I'm saying there's a big difference between shooting a gun, stabbing someone, and eye gouging someone. So much so that comparing those training methods is pretty silly.


And this, then, is where your premise, and part of Ohlenkamp sensei's fall apart.

People have been training and practicing sticking pointy objects into each other for more than a thousand years.Under a variety of circumstances, on several different continents, for a variety of motivations, gone on to perform successfully and cut down an opponent (or 60) in a variety of ways, and all that time without actually cutting anyone in practice.
 
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Hanzou

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And this, then, is where your premise, and part of Ohlenkamp sensei's fall apart.

People have been training and practicing sticking pointy objects into each other for more than a thousand years.Under a variety of circumstances, on several different continents, for a variety of motivations, gone on to perform successfully and cut down an opponent (or 60) in a variety of ways, and all that time without actually cutting anyone in practice.

Except those people lived in very different times than we do now. If you're living in an era where there are roving bands of bandits invading your home and raping your women, and you're constantly fighting and killing people, then the perfection of such brutal techniques make sense.

We live in very different times.
 

Danny T

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Except those people lived in very different times than we do now. If you're living in an era where there are roving bands of bandits invading your home and raping your women, and you're constantly fighting and killing people, then the perfection of such brutal techniques make sense.

We live in very different times.
Like in many of cities in the North American Continent, along some of America's southern border, several areas in Central and South America, in several of the middle east countries, and in several of the African Continent countries. I agree in it makes sense. Murder, rape, home invasion, assaults, etc..., happen everyday.
 

elder999

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Except those people lived in very different times than we do now. If you're living in an era where there are roving bands of bandits invading your home and raping your women, and you're constantly fighting and killing people, then the perfection of such brutal techniques make sense.

We live in very different times.

And yet another between the ears disconnect rears its ugly head.

We live in very different worlds, I think-that is to say, everyone here in the real one, with me, living in the one, and you, living in some other. :rolleyes:

I'd been training with sharp objects a scant five years before some young men on the NYC subway forced me to use that training. Up to that point, I'd never stabbed anyone. That was in the real world, decades ago, now, but not in some far off "era where there are roving bands of bandits invading your home and raping your women," which, btw, sounds like a pretty fair description of some crimes that take place today....."lfao"

"We live in very different times...." :rolleyes: :lfao:
 

geezer

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Like in many of cities in the North American Continent, along some of America's southern border, several areas in Central and South America, in several of the middle east countries, and in several of the African Continent countries. I agree in it makes sense. Murder, rape, home invasion, assaults, etc..., happen everyday.

Yeah, like right across the border in Ciudad Juarez. For vicious roving gangs try googling Sinaloa Cartel, Los Zetas, Los Caballeros Templarios, also, from further south (but present in parts of the US too) La Mara Salvatrucha (MS-13). These guys are right outta Road Warrior.

Like this guy:
la mara salvatrucha


Wanna talk about lethal techniques. They aren't secret. Cut off a guys head, blow his brains out, ...or maybe stick about 50 big knives in him.

Don't open this link if you are squeamish: http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/ca/77/42/ca774221c3d2ecef2aa15d83a0201a61.jpg
 

drop bear

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And this, then, is where your premise, and part of Ohlenkamp sensei's fall apart.

People have been training and practicing sticking pointy objects into each other for more than a thousand years.Under a variety of circumstances, on several different continents, for a variety of motivations, gone on to perform successfully and cut down an opponent (or 60) in a variety of ways, and all that time without actually cutting anyone in practice.

Thought there was a tendency to train with wooden swords. Kendo to gladiators and such so they could train non lethal. In army's people train with blanks. And unarmed people put a set of gloves on.
 

elder999

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Thought there was a tendency to train with wooden swords. Kendo to gladiators and such so they could train non lethal.

Well, yeah-and, of course, people died fairly often in free sparring. But it was training to ventilate people, without ventilating them, and it worked in combat-trained the reflexes, strength and timing for real combat, without having to take anyone's life until it was time to take someone's life-this goes against the one premise of Ohlenkamp sensei's article, and the glurge that Hanzou is trying to promote here....
 

drop bear

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This sort of evolved from an earlier thread discussing the evolution of Jujutsu into modern Judo and Bjj.

I found a good article on this subject from Judoinfo.com and I agree with most of it. Here's a snippet;

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Martial Art vs Sport

Thoughts?[/FONT][/COLOR]


What is really fun about this argument is that it works off the same idea that you don't rise to the situation but fall to the level of your training.

So I am interested to see the back flips involved making the counter argument.

Otherwise let's break this down to one throw. Osotogari.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gus3kezcBcM

Now you can street up this throw with eye gouges and such but it is a throw that relies on practice and timing and the best way to get that timing is to fire the safe version of that at a resisting oponant. If you can do the basic technique then you can do any kill version of it you choose. Even train it at a slower pace or pull contact. And maybe it will work on a self defence.

If for some reason you are so stressed that you forget to chuck that eyegouge in. It doesn't really matter if the throw itself is sound. And you can do it instinctively. Guy still gets thrown.
 
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