The Ghost of Itosu Lives On

[jks9199]

Depends on the KID!!!!

Only somewhat. Most kids become a distraction for a lot of reasons; there are very few that have the personal discipline to handle a strict class with lots of repetition. And even then -- the adults get distracted, embarrassed or otherwise uncomfortable in a class with younger kids.

 

[dancingalone]

At the risk of starting an argument which I hope if people disagree we can start another thread, it would be a big shame to take this one off track,

It's my thread. I don't care if we go off-topic.

I'd say that stand up styles aren't so different from each other, the moves within katas/patterns are the same, maybe portrayed slightly differently but the intent is the same. I've seen the same moves within Wado, Shotokan, TSD and TKD as well as JKD, with much smaller differences than you think.

Perhaps the striking (punching) principles are not so different in these systems (but I reserve the right to throw JKD out of the list). I submit however that only Wado from this group has an appreciable grappling curriculum, although everyone likes to say they are well-rounded. That's not to say that teachers of these other arts can't blend in grappling that they learned from other sources, they obvious can and do. However, in my experience (I have visited MANY dojos and dojangs across the United States and in Japan and continental Europe), and it simply has not been my experience that Shotokan karate-ka or TKD/TSDists know the grappling range even on a stand-up level. Yes, some exceptions exist, but by and large, no.

The katas in Shotokan, Wado and TSD are almost the same, they come from the same roots. I can also see other karate styles katas and recognise them as I can with TKD patterns.

The choreography of the forms is relatively close, obviously since they came from the same source. The actual usage and application of the patterns vary widely. Most Shotokan dojo have no concept of bunkai. The same is true in the Korean styles. This is changing on a small scale for the better however.

On Iains seminars are people from all styles including CMAs, he teaches much more than Bunkai, his RBSD is excellent. One thing though that means is we can talk from the same viewpoint!

I am sure he is a great teacher.

Break falls are the most important thing for them to learn as far as the groundwork is concerned, I'm jealous because children find it so easy to do, for this frankly, the younger the better! I can only breakfall when thrown I can't and probably never will make myself fall on the floor not even on a crash mat!

It's been my experience in aikido that this sometimes can be the case, but frequently not too. Most people learn to fear falling and hitting the floor sometime in their childhood and probably early on as I've seen children in my wife's aikido class as young as 8 or 9 very fearful of taking ukemi. The five years olds probably haven't learned to fear yet, but then they lack motor skills to do other stuff.

 

[Tez3]

My instructor's karate is from Shotokan and he has done a lot of Bunkai, it may be different over here perhaps? Being a smaller country may mean we have less choice of martial arts clubs so are more insular in our training which keeps it more 'traditional'. As the katas are virtually identical to Wado the takedowns and ground movements are in there too if they wish to use them. The TKD people I've trained with here also are into more than just performances of patterns which is good imo. I think children should understand what kata/patterns are for even if they don't go too deeply into them to start with, I dislike seeing kids and adults for that matter 'dance' through katas. It's one of the reasons I'm an Iain Abernethy bore or missionary lol, I want people to get the message there's so much in katas/patterns, they are so rich and rewarding to study!

 

[dancingalone]

My instructor's karate is from Shotokan and he has done a lot of Bunkai, it may be different over here perhaps? Being a smaller country may mean we have less choice of martial arts clubs so are more insular in our training which keeps it more 'traditional'.

Being smaller may force martial artists to interact with each other, even if their styles are different, ensuring some cross-pollination of ideas. We can see just from reading this forum, that there are several world-wide organizations large enough to where their members can stay exclusively within their own fellowships and train only in their own methodology.

I myself think it's a good idea to practice with other styles if only to understand what they are capable with. Karate styles are a recent invention, but they seem to have locked people into rigidity. I support the concept of styles since they (should) be a way of organizing curriculum and emphasizing what is considered important by the system's founder, but I recognize they also ensure specialization to a certain extent, and this simply means that what works for someone in say Wado might not for someone in Goju and vice versa.

As the katas are virtually identical to Wado the takedowns and ground movements are in there too if they wish to use them.

Yes, but one must specifically train those takedowns and ground movements in isolation and combination for them to be useful. Sure I can tell my TKD students that x and y exist in their hyung. So what? It means nothing to them unless I alter their basics to coincide with the lessons I want the hyung to hold for them.

The TKD people I've trained with here also are into more than just performances of patterns which is good imo. I think children should understand what kata/patterns are for even if they don't go too deeply into them to start with, I dislike seeing kids and adults for that matter 'dance' through katas. It's one of the reasons I'm an Iain Abernethy bore or missionary lol, I want people to get the message there's so much in katas/patterns, they are so rich and rewarding to study!

I like kata also. That said, I see a huge gap in many schools where while their kata might look great, they really have no understanding or capability to 'read' and 'speak' the lessons kata can teach. It's because their practice of basics have never progressed beyond floor practice or simple sparring - so they don't see that an upper block is a discrete motion that can be used to block, strike, push, unbalance, etc. They've never played with jodan uke as anything more than a thrust upwards and have never explored any implications the movement takes when you follow the path of a parabola, etc.

That is the gap and it's a very real one. It's more or less the argument I have with trying to learn someone else's bunkai in insolation. Their bunkai works for them because they have the system in place to teach it. Outsiders not so much.

 

[Tez3]

Being smaller may force martial artists to interact with each other, even if their styles are different, ensuring some cross-pollination of ideas. We can see just from reading this forum, that there are several world-wide organizations large enough to where their members can stay exclusively within their own fellowships and train only in their own methodology.

I myself think it's a good idea to practice with other styles if only to understand what they are capable with. Karate styles are a recent invention, but they seem to have locked people into rigidity. I support the concept of styles since they (should) be a way of organizing curriculum and emphasizing what is considered important by the system's founder, but I recognize they also ensure specialization to a certain extent, and this simply means that what works for someone in say Wado might not for someone in Goju and vice versa.



Yes, but one must specifically train those takedowns and ground movements in isolation and combination for them to be useful. Sure I can tell my TKD students that x and y exist in their hyung. So what? It means nothing to them unless I alter their basics to coincide with the lessons I want the hyung to hold for them.



I like kata also. That said, I see a huge gap in many schools where while their kata might look great, they really have no understanding or capability to 'read' and 'speak' the lessons kata can teach. It's because their practice of basics have never progressed beyond floor practice or simple sparring - so they don't see that an upper block is a discrete motion that can be used to block, strike, push, unbalance, etc. They've never played with jodan uke as anything more than a thrust upwards and have never explored any implications the movement takes when you follow the path of a parabola, etc.

That is the gap and it's a very real one. It's more or less the argument I have with trying to learn someone else's bunkai in insolation. Their bunkai works for them because they have the system in place to teach it. Outsiders not so much.

I know the Jodan Uke one, 'it's for when someone hits you with a downward blow or hits you with a stick' and Gedan Barai is for 'when people kick you'!
Training with Iain doesn't mean you have to know any particular kata, he will say 'if you know such and such move from such and such kata' you can do this, but it's not at all necessary to know kata at all which is why anyone can learn. he will simply take two moves form a kata and show you the self defence moves from it. We were doing Naihanchi the other week part of which was elbow strikes. Simply put you use one hand to hold the head the other to elbow to the head, you don't have to know Naihanchi to do it. Going on from there, he explained why the head moves from side to side at the beginning of the kata, then showed how it's to change hands because the attacker had blocked the elbow strike, he showed how to elbow the head and bite the attackers ear then take them down! No knowledge of kata neccesary to learn the SD part but for those of us who knew the kata it explained the use of the moves as well.
I'm not sure you have to train some of those takedowns in isolation, we did them without some of the people knowing any previous takedowns. some of them are very simple and easy to learn and do. Judo type throws need to learned separately but we did a simple takedown that was also repeated with the Sikh instructor which was simply taking their arm and using it to make them go down. I'm not good at explaining I'm afraid, I need to show, it's very frustrating!

As a side note we trained in some Gatka with a Sikh instructor and his group, we did some takedowns and SD work that was very similiar to those found in kata, 'universal' moves! though they are very keen to stab with their knives! Afterwards they did a weapons demo but they made us dance first, quite hypnotic movements accompanied by drums.

 

[dancingalone]

Training with Iain doesn't mean you have to know any particular kata, he will say 'if you know such and such move from such and such kata' you can do this, but it's not at all necessary to know kata at all which is why anyone can learn. he will simply take two moves form a kata and show you the self defence moves from it. We were doing Naihanchi the other week part of which was elbow strikes. Simply put you use one hand to hold the head the other to elbow to the head, you don't have to know Naihanchi to do it. Going on from there, he explained why the head moves from side to side at the beginning of the kata, then showed how it's to change hands because the attacker had blocked the elbow strike, he showed how to elbow the head and bite the attackers ear then take them down! No knowledge of kata neccesary to learn the SD part but for those of us who knew the kata it explained the use of the moves as well.

Absolutely, you can teach and drill applications sans kata. Some people call this 'self-defense'. It's always amused and saddened me that many school's self-defense has no link whatsoever with their kata/hyung. The key to making this work, of course, is to drill it over and over again, with or without kata.

The point I'm making with bunkai is that if you have kata within your curriculum, your basics need to align with your bunkai. I've seen one of Mr. Abernethy's demonstrations where he essentially executes sankyo, a wrist/arm lock, as an interpretation to a movement in the Pinan kata. I believe you have to train sankyo (along with other grappling basics) to be able to pull it off. You can't do it, just because it is in the kata, or because Mr. Abernethy shows you how to do it a few times in a seminar. You must train it, and then it becomes a gateway to you reaching the same destination that Abernethy did. That's a subtle distinction, but I believe it's there.

I'm not sure you have to train some of those takedowns in isolation, we did them without some of the people knowing any previous takedowns. some of them are very simple and easy to learn and do.

I still don't totally understand which takedown you are talking about, but as an aikidoka, I simply don't believe one can just pull a technique here and there out from aikido and make it work as a karateka. You can hopefully find a technique that is close to the movement principles you practice already and then adapt it to your own usage, but it likely won't have the same feeling or level of effectiveness. To learn locks and takedowns, you MUST practice locks and takedowns. Generally that means you must learn at least some of the principles that perhaps you have not worked with before in your striking system.

 

[Tez3]

Absolutely, you can teach and drill applications sans kata. Some people call this 'self-defense'. It's always amused and saddened me that many school's self-defense has no link whatsoever with their kata/hyung. The key to making this work, of course, is to drill it over and over again, with or without kata.

The point I'm making with bunkai is that if you have kata within your curriculum, your basics need to align with your bunkai. I've seen one of Mr. Abernethy's demonstrations where he essentially executes sankyo, a wrist/arm lock, as an interpretation to a movement in the Pinan kata. I believe you have to train sankyo (along with other grappling basics) to be able to pull it off. You can't do it, just because it is in the kata, or because Mr. Abernethy shows you how to do it a few times in a seminar. You must train it, and then it becomes a gateway to you reaching the same destination that Abernethy did. That's a subtle distinction, but I believe it's there.



I still don't totally understand which takedown you are talking about, but as an aikidoka, I simply don't believe one can just pull a technique here and there out from aikido and make it work as a karateka. You can hopefully find a technique that is close to the movement principles you practice already and then adapt it to your own usage, but it likely won't have the same feeling or level of effectiveness. To learn locks and takedowns, you MUST practice locks and takedowns. Generally that means you must learn at least some of the principles that perhaps you have not worked with before in your striking system.

My problem is that I'm not good at explaining what moves are and how they are done. I can see the moves in the kata, I can see the SD movements and the takedowns but I can't describe them! I've just gone through one it in my sittingroom to try and explain it but it ends up so longwinded I lose track! I can see the flows, do them as well but damned if I can expalin them enough to make myself clear.
With doing MMA I've found a great many moves we do from all the various styles we take techniques from mirrored in kata. Perhaps Wado though contains more Aikido in than other styles, I shall have to find out! I shall def get help to explain what I mean

Sankyo is well known to Wado people, plus we do it a lot in our club as SD. We do a lot of Aikido as yes my instructor has done a lot of that too lol ( he was in the military for over 22 years and like our kids had to train what was available at whatever base he was at) I believe many people train self defence movements but don't realise they can be found in kata, I think most people train it first then realise rather than realise then train. That's certainly the case with me, I knew the techniques first then discovered them in kata probably not the best way but better late than never.

 

[Gorilla]

Only somewhat. Most kids become a distraction for a lot of reasons; there are very few that have the personal discipline to handle a strict class with lots of repetition. And even then -- the adults get distracted, embarrassed or otherwise uncomfortable in a class with younger kids.

My son 13 year old does not like to train with anyone who can't focus and keep up with the training. Very few under 14 can keep up with him.

4 years ago the first day my kids stepped on the mat with our current team. The Big Gun fighter said this to our Master "what the heck is this are we joining ATA". He was not happy and said it so that I could hear it.

The Master just smiled they lined up stretched\warmed up and began to do kicking drills. After about 1/2 hour "the big gun" walked over to my son gave him a high five. He winked at me said he was sorry after class. He has been one of my kids biggest supporters.

Not everything fits neatly in a box!!!! I learn that every time I do it.

 

[Tez3]

It's not possible for our children and adults to train together as they do different things. The adults class though starts at 14 and we have several teenagers who train with us, they have to be serious as the only concessions to their age are when we do the conditioning work they don't do the big weights etc.
I've trained with children in TKD classes and on the whole I don't like it as the class is 'softer', the sparring isn't as full on and the training not as intense. The children on the whole behaved well enough, it's just you are always aware that they are there. I can see the 'family' thing though and I don't know a way around that if everyone wants to train together which time dictates other than having separate classes at the same time, not always possible due to space.

 

[ATC]

My son 13 year old does not like to train with anyone who can't focus and keep up with the training. Very few under 14 can keep up with him.

4 years ago the first day my kids stepped on the mat with our current team. The Big Gun fighter said this to our Master "what the heck is this are we joining ATA". He was not happy and said it so that I could hear it.

The Master just smiled they lined up stretched\warmed up and began to do kicking drills. After about 1/2 hour "the big gun" walked over to my son gave him a high five. He winked at me said he was sorry after class. He has been one of my kids biggest supporters.

Not everything fits neatly in a box!!!! I learn that every time I do it.

Charlie would definitely not be in our adult class. He might find it a bit too easy for him. After being on the comp team that he is on, regular classes for the masses just won't cut it for him. Our adults go pretty hard but not as hard as the comp team. there are 50 and 60 plus year old men in our adult class. You talk about slowing things down. He needs to be in a comp type class like he is. He is only going to get bigger and stronger. Regular classes just won't cut it for him at this point anymore.

The family classes are more of a general one size fits all. Then there are the extreme ends. Some kids will fit at the top end. Just as some kids will be at the bottom end. There are classes for each, if you choose to go that route.

 

[Gorilla]

Charlie would definitely not be in our adult class. He might find it a bit too easy for him. After being on the comp team that he is on, regular classes for the masses just won't cut it for him. Our adults go pretty hard but not as hard as the comp team. there are 50 and 60 plus year old men in our adult class. You talk about slowing things down. He needs to be in a comp type class like he is. He is only going to get bigger and stronger. Regular classes just won't cut it for him at this point anymore.

The family classes are more of a general one size fits all. Then there are the extreme ends. Some kids will fit at the top end. Just as some kids will be at the bottom end. There are classes for each, if you choose to go that route.

Thanks for pointing that out I was looking at that from my perspective! I needed to take a step back and see the big picture. My kids train with adult world class athletes. The adult class in a regular setting would be way to slow and he would definitely be a distraction for the adults and not a challenge for my kids. Sometimes I am hard headed!!!!