The Kwai family Kuit are both more in number and more expansive

Jens

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Yes, the Kuit I first learned was from Jui Wan and Moy Yat and they are for the most part the same for all other Yip Man students with a few variations. The Kwai family Kuit are both more in number and more expansive.

hunschuld, here is what I found online, perhaps you can elaborate a little on how each kuit is interpreted:

"Lo Kwai System overview​


Technical overview: Some of our kuen kuit and yiu jee for you. As the opponent comes receive ;if he goes escort;if contact is lost move forward;use soft to overcame hard; hard and soft combine as needed; stillness to overcome movement; footwork is to be quick and nimble( teng nuo yee shun shuok); body angle must be changed quickly;hands and feet defend as needed;

Our kuen kuit are also read in relation to others as well as alone. For example, attack the center control the center destroy the center, refers to attcking the centerline but also is about attcking the center of gravity of the opponent joining to and controlling the center of gravity.

Then we use 18 energies. tao=spit,tun=swallow,fao=raise,chum=sink , mo=touch dong=swing,na =adhere,kum=grasp,lao=leak,tong=press,biu=thrust,zhan=vibrate, huai=spiral,juan=roll,shuai=throw,zhi=straight,dap=join,jui=follow.

Yee Jee Kan Yong Ma is the basic stance. The knees are relaxed. We do not clamp. Breathing is very important and leads to a bounce or a spring in the stance.

The wood man form teaches many concepts such s short power,and how to use the waist ,hips and legs. the sections also teach different concepts. Many re concerned with moving from the inside gates to the outside ,moving from outside to inside. Making the bridge on the outside,making the bridge on the inside.

Also we focus on heaven ,man ,earth or high, mid, low. The dummy and weapons tech how to move from high to low to mid both from outside to inside and inside to outside. We also have methods to fight from the low or earth. this for when you are thrown or swept . The methods deal with bringing the opponent down to the ground or how to get up from the ground.

We use a 9 gate method 3 gates inside the opponents arms and 6 outside the opponents arms. We have no blocks but train covering our exposed gates as we move and how to cover gates based on how the opponent moves.

Our system is made up of the 4 forms SNT,CK, BJ and BGK, the wooden man form, the pole form and the knife form.We have several tests you must pass before you can be said to have completed the training. For example with the knives you must be able to absorb the full force of an attack with a kwan dao without moving or losing your stance or structure. This is to show you have learned how to absorb and direct force into the ground.You must be able to demonstrate the short issuing ging with you arm fully outstretched and palm flat on the target. the arm may not bend and the palm may not move as you issue energy."
 

hunschuld

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A lot to unpack. I will start at the beginning also if you don't mind due to typing and time limits I will do a small bit per post. For me answering specific questions is easier because I tend to get lost in the weeds and go off on tangents in order to cover all bases.

First Kuit is creation myth. Invented by a woman. Purpose isn't to be historical in any way. It is to provide the very foundational instruction of how to perform wing chun. You must use the lower body. a woman can not match a man's upper body strength. So we must focus on generating power and absorbing force with the lower body. The largest muscles are in the lower body and a woman must use this part of her body if she hopes to match a man. Power begins with the first bow just behind the ball of the foot. This is where your spring comes from. If you spring you are to run on your toes, ie the front of your foot. Your heal is not supposed to touch the ground. To jump in basketball it is this part of the foot that flexes to give you spring. In wing chun this is where the power begins and then it continues up through the other bows. This is how to use the lower body correctly. This leads to footwork. Quick and nimble. Not 70/30 step and drag. Step and drag is not wrong but it is situational. Wing Chun is close body so to get close at an advantageous angle is the goal. So you must be able to move inside to outside and cut angles quickly. This footwork is also what allows to apply Chum Kui ,search for the bridge is an offensive manor . Starting at non contact range you must be able to move in quickly and change attack angles, Once the bridge is found you move to gaining control of the center of gravity and can then use arrow step to dart in closer. Breathing is very important and I think hard to actually put into practice. Breathing comes from lower abs or stomach area. The problem is that for many when actually fighting the breath is caught in the chext area due to the tension caused by fighting.

I hope some of this makes sense and shows how different kuit tie together for usage.
 
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Jens

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You must use the lower body. a woman can not match a man's upper body strength. So we must focus on generating power and absorbing force with the lower body. The largest muscles are in the lower body and a woman must use this part of her body if she hopes to match a man. Power begins with the first bow just behind the ball of the foot. This is where your spring comes from. If you spring you are to run on your toes, ie the front of your foot. Your heal is not supposed to touch the ground. To jump in basketball it is this part of the foot that flexes to give you spring. In wing chun this is where the power begins and then it continues up through the other bows. This is how to use the lower body correctly.
I assume you are referring to the Hakka power generation signature body usage mechanics or 4 powers of: rise, sink, swallow and spit here.
 

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I assume you are referring to the Hakka power generation signature body usage mechanics or 4 powers of: rise, sink, swallow and spit here.
The 4 powers, Yes. I don't know enough about Hakka methods to give a better answer. Since our Wing Chun traces to about 1865 and the fact that Hakka's and Red Boats were in the same places at the same time and that SPM and BM seem to appear around the same time period, 1850'-1860"s I would not be surprised at a sharing of basics.
 

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to give an example of how things tie together. Kuit= hand does not come back. applies when crossing or the bridge is crossed. . Use double Tok Sau to float or raise. 1 of 4 core powers. right hand then uses Kum to grab from underneath then uses dong to twist and swing. The other tok change to bui or strike this hand can then collapse to the elbow for a strike and press,tong or goes on to circle the head. huai.The leg performs either a Zhi which would be a knee bump to the leg to finish with shui or the leg performs huen ,circle or spiral= leg sweep to finish shiu, throw. Both hands and the legs must work together= another kuit. Without proper body usage it is very difficult to make this type of thing work on a consistent basis against un cooperative person.. Which means focus on SLT. Everything begins and ends there.
 

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First Kuit is creation myth. Invented by a woman. Purpose isn't to be historical in any way. It is to provide the very foundational instruction of how to perform wing chun. You must use the lower body....
Agreed. The Ng Mui - Yim Wing Chun fable conveys the message that, properly done, Wing Chun could even be performed by an old woman or teenage girl.
Power begins with the first bow just behind the ball of the foot. This is where your spring comes from. If you spring you are to run on your toes, ie the front of your foot. Your heal is not supposed to touch the ground.
Again, as you said (see below), this is situational. When stepping and jogging, your heel does contact the ground, when running faster or sprinting, it does not. I would apply the same logic to Wing Chun steps.

To jump in basketball it is this part of the foot that flexes to give you spring. In wing chun this is where the power begins and then it continues up through the other bows. This is how to use the lower body correctly. This leads to footwork. Quick and nimble. Not 70/30 step and drag. Step and drag is not wrong but it is situational.
Quick and nimble. Agreed. But people differ on how to achieve that!

To me, this is the problem with the various kuen kuit. Some are so broad and vague as to come across as mere platitudes. Others are specific, but people in different lineages will bicker endlessly over what they mean and how to apply them.

For example: Should Wing Chun use Fou Chum Tun Tou? My old sifu did not agree and he detested big, exaggerated movements based on this saying. Later, after working with some other people, I personally found Fou Chum Tun Tou to be useful ...when done with outwardly small, almost invisible movements.

Then, I went back and looked at old videos of my original sifu and I believe he absolutely was using these four energies at a very high level. He just didn't teach that way. It was something he felt (I assume) that was best developed subtly over time rather than by encouraging bouncy, exaggerated movements. So is the kuit useful or not? Depends, I guess
I hope some of this makes sense and shows how different kuit tie together for usage.
As far as the kuit go, in general, kinda enjoy many of them, but I have no claim to any deep understanding. There are a handful that I hold dear. The rest ....not so much. They may add insight ...or not. To me, Wing Chun is ultimately a way of moving. If studying the kuit helps you, then do it!
 
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geezer

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The 4 powers, Yes. I don't know enough about Hakka methods to give a better answer. Since our Wing Chun traces to about 1865 and the fact that Hakka's and Red Boats were in the same places at the same time and that SPM and BM seem to appear around the same time period, 1850'-1860"s I would not be surprised at a sharing of basics.
Speaking of things that were popular at that time....

19th Century European/American pugilism styles:
english-bare-knuckle-boxers-prize-fighting-in-a-field-18th-century-EX25KM.jpg



And, take a look at this American style of knife from the Civil War (1861-65).

lf

By this period, there was a lot of transpacific trade. Ya know, seaports around the Pacific teaming with sailors of multiple ethnicities. Wonder if they ever got into scraps? Maybe picked up a few things in the process? ...Naaaa ;)
 
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hunshuld

Can you give an example application of stillness to overcome movement; footwork is to be quick and nimble( teng nuo yee shun shuok); body angle must be changed quickly;hands and feet defend as needed;

And

attack the center control the center destroy the center , refers to attcking the centerline but also is about attcking the center of gravity of the opponent joining to and controlling the center of gravity.
 

hunschuld

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Speaking of things that were popular at that time....

19th Century European/American pugilism styles:
english-bare-knuckle-boxers-prize-fighting-in-a-field-18th-century-EX25KM.jpg



And, take a look at this American style of knife from the Civil War (1861-65).

lf

By this period, there was a lot of transpacific trade. Ya know, seaports around the Pacific teaming with sailors of multiple ethnicities. Wonder if they ever got into scraps? Maybe picked up a few things in the process? ...Naaaa ;)
Portuguese founded Macau in 1557 so you have 300 years of east -west trading in the Pearl river Delta before Wing Chun was named. I think it would be hard for there not to be cross influences .
 

hunschuld

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Again, as you said (see below), this is situational. When stepping and jogging, your heel does contact the ground, when running faster or sprinting, it does not. I would apply the same logic to Wing Chun steps.
I do not think your analogy is appropriate. I would just say for me wing chun is about fighting so I believe always training footwork as you would use it in a fight. Jogging is great but it is not competitive running. Foot work is not situational if you are interested being effective in a fighting situation, You can either do it or you cant so you should always practice never just jog through the motions. There is only so much time to practice so you should make every minute count.
 

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Quick and nimble. Agreed. But people differ on how to achieve that!

To me, this is the problem with the various kuen kuit. Some are so broad and vague as to come across as mere platitudes. Others are specific, but people in different lineages will bicker endlessly over what they mean and how to apply them.
Completly agree. What the Kuit are and what they mean do vary
 

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Then, I went back and looked at old videos of my original sifu and I believe he absolutely was using these four energies at a very high level. He just didn't teach that way.
No doubt , you do not have to know things by name to use them. One advantage great athletes have is that their physical abilities and instincts lead them to the correct path without having to be shown.
 

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As far as the kuit go, in general, kinda enjoy many of them, but I have no claim to any deep understanding. There are a handful that I hold dear. The rest ....not so much. They may add insight ...or not. To me, Wing Chun is ultimately a way of moving. If studying the kuit helps you, then do it!
My view only. Wing Chun was invented as a combat art to fight other trained fighters. The Kuit provide insight into the mind of the creators . Through the Kuit I can understand what the intentions were. As OD often points out he sees other arts in WC. However those that created WC chose certain aspects of onther arts to meld together. The kuit explain how to use the shosen technigues.

For example almost all yourube videos of so called wing chun masters fighting the WC master looks horrible. The worst one is where a boxer using just one hand kicks the Wing Chun master ***. This should never happen if the Kuit are trained and followed. Th "Master" in this video doesnt do anthing that I would consider wing chun other than a few shapes and maybe some base beginner concepts. I ythink understanding and being able to use the Kuit would help a lot of peo-ple actually fight with their wing chun.
 

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footwork is to be quick and nimble( teng nuo yee shun shuok)
I do not have the words to adequately describe quick and nimble. However it is easy to demonstrate. It is really learning to combine the foot work froma all the forms including the weapons and understanding that a form is not meant as all their is. For example if you arrow step forward you can do the ssame backward.
Can you give an example application of stillness to overcome movement;
to do this you also need to combine and understand several other things. You must know your effective combat range and understand the range other people may have. For example at what range can a person kick you with power and at what range can you actually land a powerful kick or punch.. WC does not use fakes. At proper range you go. Your target does not need to be the body it can be a lead leg or arm. You must know what you want to do and move on your timing and ignore the other persons timing.
To use the one arm boxer vs wing chun video as an example. I remain still when the other person is too far away to actually hurt me. I remain still when he fakes. I do not chase and arm so when a jab comes from distaance I do not react to it. I just keep covered. I also do not back up. I may side step or change the angle via a shift,or a shifting step. Hands are always up and you always cover the most open lines of attack,. When a person gets within my range then I will attack his attack. Instead of a parry of a jab for instance I attack the jab. When someone fakes their intention is on what comes after ,they are not ready to be attacked, When their hand is pulling back That is my opening to attack. So other than staying covered I do not do much ,stillnness, until the person comes within my range. If a person runs away and they are to fast for me I do not chase. Chasing leads to overextension which is very bad. So they run I stay. My personal rule that I used when I fought was I would take 2 steps and no more.
;hands and feet defend as needed;

Ultimate goal use both hands similataneously with two different energies or directions. Use one leg, circle sweep,stomp or a kick for example and use you body to keep them jammed and to further unbalance. So if at a kicking range I defend a kick with a kick. You don't drop a hand to defend against a kick. Hands defend against hands. However a kick to your head your hands are needed to defend. Your hand are occupied or controlled you leg is needed to defend so hands vs hands and legs vs legs is not a hard and fast rule just a good suggestion. Dont drop your hand to defend a kick is a hard rule that is very hard to follow.
 
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hunschuld

Is it the rise, sink, swallow, and spit Hakka like mechanics which are used to attack the center of gravity of the opponent when joining to and controlling the center of gravity?

Also can you give an example of an application of the energy of juan=roll?
 

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hunschuld

Is it the rise, sink, swallow, and spit Hakka like mechanics which are used to attack the center of gravity of the opponent when joining to and controlling the center of gravity?

Also can you give an example of an application of the energy of juan=roll?
I don't have any real experience trading with Hakka people so I don't really know how they do things. There are many superficial similarities but I don't know what they are trying to do. Perhaps you can point me to a video where I can see what they are doing.

Yes the 4 basic powers are the basis for joining and controlling center of gravity. basic training is use of 2 at a time. If I sink incoming energy I follow with raise

Roll - 2 examples. The low bong sau from dummy form we perform it with a spiral motion . Think a rolling pine standing up. The spiral effect rolls the incoming energy off. Next Double tok sau throw. Toks grab just behind the elbows. one Tok pulls down and out the other lifts up and out. Use the chum Kui double lan shifting or stepping from dummy,pole,knife form to roll the incoming energy to a side as you throw. Your body is like a revolving door. energy comes and you roll it off
 
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I don't have any real experience trading with Hakka people so I don't really know how they do things. There are many superficial similarities but I don't know what they are trying to do. Perhaps you can point me to a video where I can see what they are doing.

 

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No, not like this. We use a snake body mechanic so the body sinks, rises,coils and whips. Softer more flowing . So if you are doing swallow your body sinks and the
waist coils then when your arms spit your body whips. sounds more complicated than it is just not simple for me to explain. I am more visual than a good describer.
 
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I don't have any real experience trading with Hakka people so I don't really know how they do things. There are many superficial similarities but I don't know what they are trying to do. Perhaps you can point me to a video where I can see what they are doing.

Yes the 4 basic powers are the basis for joining and controlling center of gravity. basic training is use of 2 at a time. If I sink incoming energy I follow with raise

Roll - 2 examples. The low bong sau from dummy form we perform it with a spiral motion . Think a rolling pine standing up. The spiral effect rolls the incoming energy off. Next Double tok sau throw. Toks grab just behind the elbows. one Tok pulls down and out the other lifts up and out. Use the chum Kui double lan shifting or stepping from dummy,pole,knife form to roll the incoming energy to a side as you throw. Your body is like a revolving door. energy comes and you roll it off
hunschuld, whats the difference between juan=roll and huai=spiral?

Perhaps this is a clearer example of the Hakka signature biomechanics of: float, sink, swallow, and spit.
 
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hunschuld

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hunschuld, whats the difference between juan=roll and huai=spiral?

Perhaps this is a clearer example of the Hakka signature biomechanics of: float, sink, swallow, and spit.
Main differences, no dynamic tension, elbow placement, Hakka elbows to side of chest WC elbows stay in front of chest, WC no separate set training . training is found in SLT and CK
 
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