The End of Page Three?

[Sukerkin]

There is a pretty awful tabloid newspaper in the UK called the Sun which, despite it's awfulness, still manages to have one of the highest circulations in the country. Part of the reason for that, it has been theorised many times, is because Page Three of the paper on week-days carries a full page photo of a topless glamour model.

Many times over the years feminist campaigns have sprung up to stop this practise.

At previous occasions I have been rather on the fence about this issue as, yes, it is an anachronism in these more equal days to have such a thing in a national 'family' newspaper and it is cannot really be argued that it does an awful lot to reduce the sexual objectification of women. Alternatively tho', it has opened a career path for many women whose major talent was looking good disrobed and, for a few, some very lucrative careers indeed - Linda Lusardi, Sam Fox, Melinda Messenger, Jo Guest and Melanie Appleby spring to mind immediately.

This time tho', I am starting to think that the 'harm' to women as a whole outweighs the 'good' for those lucky enough to have the looks to make money from. The batle lines are being drawn with campaigners on one side such as Lucy-Anne Holmes {http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2013/mar/10/anti-page-3-the-sun-campaigner} or defenders like the Commentator on the other {http://www.thecommentator.com/article/2893/the_ban_on_boobs}. Now the Girl Guides have thrown their hats in the ring on this too: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-22064433.

The arguments 'feel' stronger to me this time that Page 3 is a highly visible part of the reduction of the worth of women as a whole to being no more than an extension of how 'sexy' they look. I used to think that getting rid of Page Three wouldn't do much about that given the rest of the media bombardment on the same theme but maybe it's one of those times when what is needed is a 'first step'?

If nothing else it would mean that if I ever idly picked up a copy of the Sun whilst sitting and waiting somewhere I wouldn't have to skip the first couple of pages to avoid embarrassment .

I am assuming that there is no equivalent national paper in America (is there?) but what are peoples thoughts on this?

 

[granfire]

On the other hand, having seen how the naked body is treated in other parts of the world (like here)
it takes a lot of pressure of a young fella to disrobe a young lady me thinks.

Not sure how it's in the UK, but In Germany the magazines with the naked people are pretty much right next to the comic books.
They are naked, big whoop, what's the new Mickey mouse look like.....

Over here?






OMG a nipple!!!



(and I think picking up the Sun would be the biggest source of embarrassment for you anyhow! )

 

[Sukerkin]

:grins: A rueful "True enough" to your last sentence there, Gran . Sometimes, tho', in certain places, there is no other choice except stare blankly at the opposite wall :lol:.

It is also true that the 'continental' attitude to nudity is very different indeed to the British one :nods:.

 

[DennisBreene]

:grins: A rueful "True enough" to your last sentence there, Gran . Sometimes, tho', in certain places, there is no other choice except stare blankly at the opposite wall :lol:.

It is also true that the 'continental' attitude to nudity is very different indeed to the British one :nods:.

And all totally distanced from the schizoid American response. Unbelievable imagery available online and nearly apoplectic fear that a hint of pubic presence even exists. And yes; I have confirmed the presence of said imagery personally for purposes of research:uhohh:.

 

[aedrasteia]

Now the Girl Guides have thrown their hats in the ring on this too: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-22064433.

The arguments 'feel' stronger to me this time that Page 3 is a highly visible part of the reduction of the worth of women as a whole to being no more than an extension of how 'sexy' they look.

Girl Guides are like our Girl Scouts, right?

I've done many safety classes with Scouts and other teen girls.
Think web porn and 'f---k' me photo shots don't have any effect on them?
At 11 or 12 or 13? or 16, 18?? yeah, right.

lots of confusion and some real fear usually hidden behind giggling, and transparent assurances that
'hey I don't let it bother me! Its no big deal - I'm not a prude (from an 11 yr old).

some more REALITY via class questions:

do those girls get raped? aren't they "asking for it" ??

My older brother/family/Mom/Dad says girls who do that are "asking to get raped"

if I were to look like that/dress like that/act like that, my Dad says that's "asking for it".

But he (Dad) likes the pics and that other stuff (he thinks I don't know).
And this boy wants me to send a picture of me with no clothes.
or just my boobs. Is that "asking for it"?

I don't understand what I'm supposed to do (and think about myself)
and what about these these?? - gestures at her boobs.

yeah. And the RBSD-SD4W classes are about arm-bars and stranger-danger crap.

No Mark, I'm not mad at you.

 

[granfire]

Girl Guides are like our Girl Scouts, right?

I've done many safety classes with Scouts and other teen girls.
Think web porn and 'f---k' me photo shots don't have any effect on them?
At 11 or 12 or 13? or 16, 18?? yeah, right.

lots of confusion and some real fear usually hidden behind giggling, and transparent assurances that
'hey I don't let it bother me! Its no big deal - I'm not a prude (from an 11 yr old).

some more REALITY via class questions:

do those girls get raped? aren't they "asking for it" ??

My older brother/family/Mom/Dad says girls who do that are "asking to get raped"

if I were to look like that/dress like that/act like that, my Dad says that's "asking for it".

But he (Dad) likes the pics and that other stuff (he thinks I don't know).
And this boy wants me to send a picture of me with no clothes.
or just my boobs. Is that "asking for it"?

I don't understand what I'm supposed to do (and think about myself)
and what about these these?? - gestures at her boobs.

yeah. And the RBSD-SD4W classes are about arm-bars and stranger-danger crap.

No Mark, I'm not mad at you.

that problem is deeper rooted than that chick on page three.

Because in reality nobody really takes it serious. I mean yeah, the guys would look but in the end it's not real.

we have really bigger problems, and I think a bit of Page Three Girl would do the American soul good: we drill little girls as soon as they start to walk that their body is bad and to be covered. I mean, telling a two year old 'put your dress down I see your boobs'? She has no boobs, and she is innocent and won't really know until she gets older (and close to puberty)

Boys get it, too, to a lesser extend...I mean, unless you swim competitively or dive....you can't find swim trunks that do not completely obscure the lower torso. Heaven forbid, one could see the guy in question is better endowed than Ken (which, btw almost all guys are)

Now, whn you bombard the girls with negative body image with those sexually loaded imagery - and not just visual ones - you have the recipe for disaster.

Oh, and btw: posing nude can be very empowering....
I would not want to do a Penthouse spread, but having a pro take pictures? Why not. The female body is a thing of wonder. (the male one, too, but we have gone away from the Greek ideal of full frontal nudity for guys...)

 

[Sukerkin]

Not to worry, Adrasteia, I quite understand the strength of feeling.

Whilst a younger me might have had greater doubts of the true impact of such imagery on girls growing into women, the older me not only has the general advantages of slightly more wise 'eyes' but those eyes have seen a very worrying slide backwards in the way that younger men speak about and treat their girlfriends.

Page 3 of the Sun is just a more known 'hardcopy' facet of the objectification of women; it seems less harmful because it's been around so long it seems like it's always been there (even tho' I think it was first published only forty years or so). I shudder to think what young men are 'consuming' from the Net these days - the stuff that I have seen as a result of the occasional ill-filtered search is indication enough that "Celebration of the beauty of the female form" is not the aim.

Like Gran intimates tho', it is difficult to find a healthy line between suppressing and exploiting when it comes to human sexuality. Given the existence of the Web, getting rid of Page 3 will, superficially, amount to nothing - but I do think that because of it's 'fame' it may well be a first step towards a reassessment of the whole issue.

 

[celtic_crippler]

What's wrong with boobies?

 

[Sukerkin]

Nothing whatsoever, CC. In my opinion most likely the finest outcome of natural selection and evolution to date. The problems that arise from pornography have very little to do with how wonderful most of us 'normal' fellows think boobs are.

 

[granfire]

What's wrong with boobies?

Oh, I can give you a laundry list,if you actually cared to know

But that is from the purely female perspective, you know, actually having them

 

[aedrasteia]

CC, Gran, Dennis, Mark - and anyone. I'd appreciate the contributions (no sarcasm).

Answer her questions, answer their questions. No abstractions. Reality.

Oh yeah, in most of my classes about 25-30%
have already been sexually assaulted.


'hey I don't let it bother me! Its no big deal - I'm not a prude (from an 11 yr old).

do those girls get raped? aren't they "asking for it" ??
My older brother/family/Mom/Dad says girls who do that are "asking to get raped"

if I were to look like that/dress like that/act like that, my Dad says that's "asking for it".

But he (Dad) likes the pics and that other stuff (he thinks I don't know).

And this boy wants me to send a picture of me with no clothes.
or just my boobs. Is that "asking for it"?

I don't understand what I'm supposed to do (and think about myself)
and what about these these?? - gestures at her boobs.

special to CC : her predator (family member) explained that her big boobs were the reason
he had to molest her, so, you know, it was sorta her fault for having 'em.
But she was old enough .... according to him. (again, no sarcasm, just reality).

 

[Sukerkin]

Sorry, Ad, I thought what you were positing were issues that arise because of the general sexualised/objectified environment rather than questions you literally expected us to answer. I think maybe you need to make the questions a little clearer as they are a bit buried amidst the body of the text.

No woman that gets raped is 'asking for it' - it's an absurdity for anyone to say so. I think I've said when the subject of rape has arisen in these fora that a woman has to take some sense of responsibility for her own safety in the same way as anyone does when they are out and about. I believe perhaps that some use the term "asking for it" in a rather ill-defined way. What they really mean is that inadequate caution and good sense was shown rather than conveying a sense of 'deserving' whatever happened to them.

The question about sending intimate pictures is a 'modern' phenomenon that's come about with the proliferation of camera phones. I'm a bit Neolithic about such things both technologically and socially because I cannot conceive of how any woman would want to do such a thing. I think that women are wonderful and that sex is a splendid activity but I've been brought up to consider it to be a private one so I don't comprehend the notion of documenting and distributing images.

As to the girl who was confused as to what she should think about herself, that's really not a question I can answer when all I have is the question without background, context or history to draw on. Even then, I'm no psychologist so all it'd be is an uninformed Englishmans opinion. For what that's worth tho', she needs to realise that her worth is not determined by what those that surround her say it is if all they have in store for her is for her to be 'sexual property'. Sexuality is an integral part of what we are and is part of our sense of self-worth but it is not all, or even the greater part of, 'who' we are.

 

[granfire]

CC, Gran, Dennis, Mark - and anyone. I'd appreciate the contributions (no sarcasm).

Answer her questions, answer their questions. No abstractions. Reality.

Oh yeah, in most of my classes about 25-30%
have already been sexually assaulted.


'hey I don't let it bother me! Its no big deal - I'm not a prude (from an 11 yr old).

do those girls get raped? aren't they "asking for it" ??
My older brother/family/Mom/Dad says girls who do that are "asking to get raped"

if I were to look like that/dress like that/act like that, my Dad says that's "asking for it".

But he (Dad) likes the pics and that other stuff (he thinks I don't know).

And this boy wants me to send a picture of me with no clothes.
or just my boobs. Is that "asking for it"?

I don't understand what I'm supposed to do (and think about myself)
and what about these these?? - gestures at her boobs.

special to CC : her predator (family member) explained that her big boobs were the reason
he had to molest her, so, you know, it was sorta her fault for having 'em.
But she was old enough .... according to him. (again, no sarcasm, just reality).

it was a bit of a mixed message there.

In any case, perpetrators usually have a pretty good system of justification going for themselves.
Daddy (or whom ever) is a sick bassturd. If the girl had worn a Burka he's molested her.
Ain't got nothing to do with Page Three, it's al about the justification and blame shifting, because - after all - we are not accountable for our actions, somebody else is to blame.

And the picture sending....
it's a bit of a chasm to bridge for the mind without making major concessions (but that also includes posting on public forums, for that matter): Because you are sitting in the comfort and safety of your living room does not make it private when you send stuff - anything, really - off into the nether.
harmless but important reminder from a few years back: a family had fun with their large cat, a camera and photoshop. They made to look Pookie even bigger than real life and send the picture to a friend. Friend send it t another and so on, and fat ct was an over night internet sensation.
Once the image or idea leaves your device (and even the device isn't safe) it is completely out of your control.
So the answer would be: sure send the boob picture if you are comfortable with all the school and a billion of your closest friends looking at them.

But that is still a far cry from 'asking for it'
(but then, we live in a world of opposites and irreconcilable paradoxes: Most school have wardrobe codes: shorts/skirts must exceed a certain length, yet, cheerleader/majorette/dance line dress is many times far more revealing)

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Oh, and btw: posing nude can be very empowering....
I would not want to do a Penthouse spread, but having a pro take pictures? Why not. The female body is a thing of wonder. (the male one, too, but we have gone away from the Greek ideal of full frontal nudity for guys...)

I did a therapeutic shoot for a gal once. She was getting over some serious body image issues and spent a few months doing tasteful nude work as a way to feel better about herself and accept her body.



As to page 3 going away, all us pervy guys agree:

Ok, back to serious for a second. I've worked with a fair number of gals, some pro models, some amatuers, some just folks who do it for fun. I've done artistic nude, art nude, glamour, boudoir, etc. You know what thought was going through my head when 2 nude models were standing shoulder to shoulder with me while I was showing them the shots I just took? "I hope they like them". I'm weird like that. Problem in my opinion is that we have the "idea" that if a woman is comfortable in her skin, or with her own sexuality, that it's somehow an invitation for Mr. Horndog to be a jack ***. It's not. Her body, her right to decide what happens to it. Just because she's nude, or half nude, or well endowed, doesn't mean anyone has a right to 'help them selves'. **** all, I don't even move hair out of someones eyes without asking first if it's ok. Anyone who says she was asking for it is in my opinion an idiot. ****, I've worked with a few porn stars and even they aren't 'asking for it'.



and Suk....Page 3 is pretty tame. I've seen stuff that I'll never get out of my head....no matter how badly I wish I could.

 

[arnisador]

It's quite a tradition--an anachronistic and demeaning one, of course, but still a tradition. Good news for society if it's dropped it I suppose, but whatever.

 

[Carol]

*deadpans*

But Americans are Anacreonistic ...

 

[jezr74]

No woman creates an invitation for rape.

What woman choose to wear is their choice, just use judgment on appropriate attire for the appropriate setting. No matter how revealing or how provocative a woman dresses, it is not an invitation for rape ever.

But unfortunately it may draw unwanted attention.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk HD

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I just went and looked at Page3. I'm sorry. I don't see those shots as demeaning.

I don't believe any of those women were forced to pose. I didn't see any in true submissive poses. I didn't see any cowering. I didn't see any in chains.

I see confident women proud of their bodies, and open about their sexuality.

I also saw crappy lighting, redundant poses, bad crops, and horrid post processing.

Now me..... I might put my subjects in chains, or leather. I've dealt with fallen angels, and wild gypsies.
Hell, look through my port, tell me, honestly, demeaning?

Because, I don't see it in the shots. On Page 3, in Playboy, or in my own work.
(Hell, I hand half my models swords. )

 

[aedrasteia]

Bob

I appreciate your conversation.

As i requested the others, please answer the questions from #5 and 11.
the girls in my classes ask them - all the time. Not hypotheticals.
all the time.

explain to the girls at 12, 13, 14 + . or 24 or 37 or 62. There's No sarcasm here from me.

And they absolutely have to figure this stuff out because it's the media ocean they are
swimming in - along with lots of males who may - or may not think and behave like you do. Or Mark.

Many of the guys they encounter (their own age and older) have very different ideas and draw very
different conclusions. And some behave very differently.

I think you called them 'Horndogs' ?? Some are dangerous.

which ones?

Want it both ways. ?

Girls and women are expected to figure out the hypocrisy and resolve the contradictions.
because its our skin in the game.

And figure out - somehow - who is an OK guy for real and who is a predator pretending to be
a decent person. And those are very very good at the pretending.

And 70-80-90% of the predators are already inside our circle of friends, family, guys we know.

Some who talk very convincingly about how much they appreciate how an attractive girl looks.

And we (girls) must make that call absolutley right every single time - no mistakes. Ever.

Oh, and at the same time we/they get these additional messages loud and clear:
- don't ever be a prude - don't ever be a ***** - don't ever look too cheap/sexy,
just look sexy in the way that I like - whic you have no way of knowing,
- don't have any drink any time ever because predators are always around, right?
But its not Bob or Mark or the guys they know. Never. But don't be paranoid.

And at the same time, don't ever ever let it slip, by words or actions, that you have any remote
suspicion that this guy or any friend of Bob or Mark or CC or Dennis might be untrustworthy.
What are you - paranoid ? a *****? a libber-type?
So be very good at concealing how much fear and worry and anxiety you feel.

Even better if you can just push it all away in your head.
Remember that supposed 'denial of danger' - that makes so many male SD?MA teachers
puzzled and frustrated??? Maybe it's a coping mechanism for girls and women .

so please answer the questions. No hypotheticals. No abstractions. No guesses.
I value your thoughts.

I'm hoping for the same from CC, Dennis, Mark, Gran etc.

and many of the girls have have seen those images you'd rather forget.
They would too.

with respect.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

As requested.

do those girls get raped? aren't they "asking for it" ??

I've shot at least 2 rape victims. I've had the displeasure of dealing with her attacker. No she didn't ask for it. No he was never prosecuted, he even bragged about all the 'fun' they had on a photography forum.

My older brother/family/Mom/Dad says girls who do that are "asking to get raped"

They are wrong.

if I were to look like that/dress like that/act like that, my Dad says that's "asking for it".

He's wrong.

But he (Dad) likes the pics and that other stuff (he thinks I don't know).

Your dad is a hypocrite. He should set a better example. If those pics are wrong, he should get rid of them. If they aren't, he shouldn't suggest they are, or are something to be ashamed of.

And this boy wants me to send a picture of me with no clothes.
or just my boobs. Is that "asking for it"?

Sending the pic isn't asking for it, it is however not smart.

I don't understand what I'm supposed to do (and think about myself)
and what about these these?? - gestures at her boobs.

Think of yourself as someone good, of value, of worth. You are you, and that is ok. As to those, they are part of you. Everyone has em, none are the same, and they are all good. Mine are just fuzzier.

special to CC : her predator (family member) explained that her big boobs were the reason
he had to molest her, so, you know, it was sorta her fault for having 'em.
But she was old enough .... according to him. (again, no sarcasm, just reality).

No, the reason was he was a predator. Her boobs were not the reason, there is no 'good reason' to molest someone, and I don't care if you're 102, you're age doesn't make rape ok.

Questions answered.