The effect of sound

[Rouge_Fist]

Back somewhere near the end of the 1960's I happened to be in Monteral and saw a sign for a karate tournament. Not
really being sure what was going on I paid and went in to watch. Now I had no idea what I would see that day but I was treated to viewing some great fights (no pads and alot of contact). What really got my attention and everyone elses was a forms demo, preformed by a man about 5'7 and weighing about 225-250.
He did what I have since come to learn was Saoncechin(SP) a form much like sanchin bit with movement and different stances.
What made this form different from any that day or any I have seen since?
By the middle of the form the man had the whole place breathing with him. Not only where they breathing to his rythem but many where sweating and as tense as he was. At the end of the form he let out a yell that Shattered 3 windows in the auditorium. The yell was so loud and forcefull that everyone jumped .
I have never seen the form done with such force and power in all the years after. As I said it was a long time ago and maybe it was a one time incidence but it happened.
So do I think sound can move object, or break objects. YES
By the way concider an opera singer and a cystal glass.
Rouge

 

[tshadowchaser]

I have heard that story. I remember being told that same story back in about 72 or 73. I remember it because the people telling it where all sitting at a table haveing coffee and tea and I ws serveing and listening. Once in a while they would look at me trying to figure out if they wanted to say whatever in front of me . Eventually theyjust accepted that I was to be aloud to hear what was being said and talked openly. This(sound) was one of the topics disscussed and the story Rouge_fist told was told a couple of times with names mentioned of who was there and who did what that day. They also talked about someone who was enhanceing his breaking ability wuth sound vibrations.
Wish I could have seen itr for myslef.
I was suprised when I saw the post for I only know a few people who remember the event and they rarely disscuse it
Shadow:asian:

 

[Carbon]

I always felt embarased to Kia because I felt retarded doing it?

I guess since I'm not a very outspoken person in person that yelling loudly while doing something doesn't seem to be the most suitable for me.

I wouldn't mind doing loud exhales and inhales, but actually having to say kia is hard for me to overcome in a crowd of people.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I remember reading somewhere that Bruce Lee used sound alot with his training. I forget the specifics, but there was something with various sounds, and movements that helped you follow/learn them better...I think (its late, and I wasn't reading for memory at the time)

Maybe someone better versed in the JKD info can elaborate?

:asian:

 

[bscastro]

I'm not sure if this is what you're talking about, but in the Tao of Jeet Kune Do, Bruce talks about using sound to distract an opponent. For example, using it while feinting to draw the opponent's guard and then striking somewhere else.

Also, in another book, he talks about using the tone of your voice when instructing to bring about more intensity. Nothing too mystical. He said to be energetic and louder when you wanted more intensity, and softer when you wanted calmer, more relaxed movement.

He may have used other methods you are referring to, but those are ones I have read in his books.

Bryan

 

[Carbon]

Has anyone ever dreamed about fighting someone?

When I dream about fighting someone its like my body is very tense in the dream and its all in slow motion.

So in my dreams when I hit someone it doesn't hurt them or it doesn't feel like it hurts them. This happend to me last night, like there this kid I hate and I dreamed about punching him in the face twice.

The odd thing is I punched him in the face acouple time but very slowly and it looked like I was just putting my hand in his face.

Then I thought about relaxing, and leting the anger subside and then I was able to swing without bounds. So I hit him in the face, still it wasn't that powerful.

He fell to the ground and got back up and when he was getting back up I hit him in the face again, but after I looked at his face it was just red.

No real damage had accured, then in the rest of the dream he was taunting me and such.

 

[Shinzu]

LOL..here we go again

 

[tshadowchaser]

I'll address the first of your last two posts .
Do not Yell KIA that is only a word to discribe the expulsion of air from your body. The kia may be just a sound or it may be a word (Kill, die, choclet, etc) No chocklet dose not work well.

 

[tshadowchaser]

Carbon

AAS to your 2nd post if you want to discuse that topic start another thread maybe you will get some answers

 

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by arnisador

All I know of Mr. Dillman's method I learned from a one-afternoon seminar on pressure points that changed direction a bit into kiai-jutsu. A student of his suggested it to him and he is now a believer. There are different sounds you use for techniques in different directions, he stated, and to different areas/organs. He said that it multiplies the effect of the blow you strike, significantly. The sound "kyu" is made with a down-pointing technique (strike, joint lock, what have you) and "sho" for an up-pointing technique, as examples.

This sounds like something I read somewhere about one of the harder Kung Fu styles, Hung Gar, I think(I may be wrong), but basically what was said was that every type of strike, ie. punch, backfist, elbow, uppercut, rip etc. had a distinctly different sound associated with it.

I tried it from the article and it seemed to have some effect(may have been placebo), but I couldn't swear to it. May have been different with a qualified instructor.

--Dave:asian:

 

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by tshadowchaser

I'll address the first of your last two posts .
Do not Yell KIA that is only a word to discribe the expulsion of air from your body. The kia may be just a sound or it may be a word (Kill, die, choclet, etc) No chocklet dose not work well.

I may be wrong, as I am not well versed in either Japanese or Korean, but doesn't kiai and ki hap, both mean, "To yell"?

If this is true, then choclet might work.:rofl:

Just wondering,
--Dave:asian:

 

[J-kid]

Not a big fan of yelling. seen people use it, Dos not work on me.
Maybe i will try work on it see what i can do with it. ( Your Friend Judo-kid)

 

[RyuShiKan]

Proper kia is important in MA training.
I met a karateka once that actually said "kia!" when he did kia..........it's like yelling the word "yell!"

I have been told that the word kia means to focus with ki or to bring the ki into focus. Sounds Alight I guess.
Ki = chi, ki
Ai= to meet

I have stopped doing kia in kata training when we are in the Budokan because it actually bothers other groups that train in the same floor space as we do. I actually did a kia once and saw some guy in the Iaido group jump because he was startled. Didn't think it would be a good idea to keep doing that if he was using a "shinken" (real sword).

So what is kia for?
Don't really know for sure but it does do several things like tighten the stomach muscles, and startle or break your opponents concentration.
Kind of the same effect as one of those boat horns that come in a can I guess.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Carbon

Has anyone ever dreamed about fighting someone?

When I dream about fighting someone its like my body is very tense in the dream and its all in slow motion.

Wonder what Freud would have to say about that........

 

[Nightingale]

Well, the "Ooss" or "Usss" kiah works. I learned that the hard way. Saturday, I took what basically amounted to an uppercut to the stomach by someone wanting to test my kiah. I didn't get the wind knocked out of me. I did, however, acquire a bruise the size of a grapefruit just below my ribcage.

I was taught that a kiah serves three purposes...

one, as illustrated above. If you get the air out, you can't get the wind knocked out of you.

two, a kiah on your own strikes can add power by contracting the abdominal muscles, giving you an extra bit of strength

three, a kiah can scare the heck outa your opponent if they're not expecting it.

 

[sweeper]

hmm.. in the my JKD class we don't realy yell, the only reason we would would be as a distractoin (yell on hand tech and kick low). We breath and on a punch we would contract our abdominal muscles in a way that would expell air from our lungs, but it sounds morelike a hiss.. kinda like a miniature steam engine or something .

as to diffrent sounds for diffrent directions, depending on what way you are punching you either want to contract your abdominal muscles or your back muscles, I don't think the vocalisation realy matters.

as for the color thing, I would want to see the scientific reaosn it works..

As for breaking something with a yell.. I think if you were to get a large group of people to all let out an explosive vocalisation in perfect sync you could break something if the frequiency was right, also a series of outbursts back to back on the resonant frequincy of an object might break it, or a series of out bursts timed to it's resonance. As for the opera singer, that is totaly diffrent, an opera singer can break crystal because of two reasons, 1: imperfections in the crystal, there are (genneraly microscopic) imperfections in crystal, wethere they are small bubbles of gass or other elements, it weakens the structure of the crystal. 2: resonance, The singer breaks crystal in wich the resonant frequency is the same as the frequency she is vocalising, it does not break instantly it takes some time. An other example of reonance is the earthquake nicola tesla caused in manhatan in 1898 with a mechanical osilator.. point is a single outburst of force would have to be vastly more powerfull to cause dammage to anything including glass.


As to getting someone's attention, ever been in a relativly quiet store than had a small child let out a sudden scream? know that fealing that goes down the back of your neck? know how everyone turns around suddenly? those are psychological responces to the sound, if you had expected it it wouldn't have the same effect (if you were looking at the kid and knew he/she was gona scream). same goes for the kia, it can startle someone but they can't be expecting it, or at leaste not it's potencey, when used correctly a yell can have a tremendous effect on someone, it doesn't matter wether they are fighting or not, this is how it would be use in JKD to control your oppoant, in a self deffence situation it's used in a simular way, by making alot of noise your attacker can become worried that to much attention is being drawn to you and may decide to leave, it all depends on when you do it, how you do it, and who you do it to and what they are thinking.

 

[Yossarian75]

Ive been told that different sounds can have adverse effects on your oponents internal energy, the sounds "ha, ooss, uss, dee" can supposedly be used to weaken your opponent or activate pressure points on thier body.

Also asking your oponent a question can make them loosen thier grip etc as it automatically engages their brain to think about the question, get a strong partner to grab your arm with all thier strength, ask them something(short and simple) and see how much easier it is to get out of the grab.

I have heard that wearing opposite coloured top and trousers(eg black and white) can increase your bodys Ki flow, if you buy into that sort of thing of course.

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan



Wonder what Freud would have to say about that........

Not sure who said it, Freud or Jung, but one of them said that
this is your own fear (self doubt) of your ability to fight, coming
out in your dreams.

 

[Marginal]

I Kia'ed one guy and he flew 20 feet! (Of course, the hood was all dented afterwards...)

Seriously though, I just can't get myself to shout consistently while in class. I blame this on watching old kung fu movies, westerns etc where the guys would shout, and the person they were attacking would just whirl and counter the oncoming attack. Ever since then, it's just seemed like needless telegraphing of an attack.

Totally pointless mental block, but there 'ya go.

 

[tonbo]

I've most often heard this "kia/ki hap/etc." debate referred to as the "spirit yell".....and the number of reasons people do it is as varied as the number of styles out there.

Personally, I agree with Gou.....I like people that are big and flashy, and yell a LOT. They get winded quicker, from all that bluster, and they are easier to knock out...

Seriously, though. I think the major thing is that it centers on the breathing. I have taught kids classes and explained the kiai as the "this will un-nerve your opponent or scare them, and give you an advantage" reason. However, that is because most kids NEED to be loud in a situation where bad guys get at them. Adults don't. For adults, a scream from your opponent may stop you for a sec or two, depending on the situation. Doesn't work much in sparring, from my personal experience. However, kiais do tend to work for teaching you how to breathe better.

I study Kenpo, and agree with the "Infinite Insights" material. Boxers exhale with strikes, but don't yell. THEIR strikes seem to be pretty effective......

Anyway, if yelling works for you, do it.

Peace--